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Why is the black level at LCD's so horrible compared to plasma?

D

darkwings

Banned
ok, so I hooked up my 360 to my new 24" monitor to play FFXIII. First thing i noticed is that the black is lightgray on my LCD screen. I tried to adjust it, but it didnt get much better. On my 42" plasma which is 4 years old, the black level is fantastic and the colors much more vibrant. FFXIII looks like a different game. On my LCD on the other hand, it looks washed out.

My friends say that LCD's are much better than Plasma TVs, but I think I am going to choose plasma as my next purchase too.
 
darkwings said:
ok, so I hooked up my 360 to my new 24" monitor to play FFXIII. First thing i noticed is that the black is lightgray on my LCD screen. I tried to adjust it, but it didnt get much better. On my 42" plasma which is 4 years old, the black level is fantastic and the colors much more vibrant. FFXIII looks like a different game. On my LCD on the other hand, it looks washed out.

My friends say that LCD's are much better than Plasma TVs, but I think I am going to choose plasma as my next purchase too.
Click to expand...


Generally yes,for blacks,Plasma is better but not as much as you make it sound...also,it depends on the brand...if you have a shitty Insigna brand LCD for example,yeah,it looks like crap.
 
darkwings said:
ok, so I hooked up my 360 to my new 24" monitor to play FFXIII. First thing i noticed is that the black is lightgray on my LCD screen. I tried to adjust it, but it didnt get much better. On my 42" plasma which is 4 years old, the black level is fantastic and the colors much more vibrant. FFXIII looks like a different game. On my LCD on the other hand, it looks washed out.

My friends say that LCD's are much better than Plasma TVs, but I think I am going to choose plasma as my next purchase too.
Click to expand...

Did you change the settings of your 360? Or just the colour settings of your monitor?
 
Well isn't that one of the main sellin points of a plasma? That and the fact that there's virtually no input lag were the reasons I bought mine

I heard that in rare cases, some older panasonic plasmas are getting washed out blacks after a few years due to some flaw in the panels
 
Have you checked that the backlight isn't to bright? I turned it down on my LCD and it helped a lot. Makes the games dark in a very well lighted room though. Contrast up very high, and backlight + brightness as low as possible.
 
it's because how the technology works. for plasma screens, black is basically "off", while LCD screen are always light by a lamp (or by LEDSs) and black is obtained with the liquid crystals orientation that cannot "block the light". plasma have far superior color quality and black but they eat up a lot of power, are size constrained (can't be smaller than a given size, or that was true a couple years ago, might be changed), suffer from burn in and don't have perfect geometry.
 
viewtiful_dru said:
Well isn't that one of the main sellin points of a plasma? That and the fact that there's virtually no input lag were the reasons I bought mine

I heard that in rare cases, some older panasonic plasmas are getting washed out blacks after a few years due to some flaw in the panels
Click to expand...


Since all those sets where new about 4,5,6 years ago,those flaws are getting apparent now,my 4 and half year old Sony LCD is starting to have problems as well,it still looks great but it`s getting blur overdose and bright light /neon reflection problems now,and I`m reading it`s common...I might have a hard time playing games like Alan Wake because of this :(
 
soqquatto said:
it's because how the technology works. for plasma screens, black is basically "off", while LCD screen are always light by a lamp (or by LEDSs) and black is obtained with the liquid crystals orientation that cannot "block the light". plasma have far superior color quality and black but they eat up a lot of power, are size constrained (can't be smaller than a given size, or that was true a couple years ago, might be changed), suffer from burn in and don't have perfect geometry.
Click to expand...

I thought they fixed that now on new plasmas?
 
Ajemsuhgao said:
I have a 21.5" acer LCD monitor, and my black is black.
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It's never as black as a plasma. As soqquatto pointed out a plasma can turn black areas off, a LCD can't do that.

HowStuffWorks.com: Plasma / LCD
 
bandresen said:
It's never as black as a plasma. As soqquatto pointed out a plasma can turn black areas off, a LCD can't do that.

HowStuffWorks.com: Plasma / LCD
Click to expand...


I have my LCD monitor in front of me, and a CRT right next to it, both with the same exact wallpaper. There is barely any difference in the two. Certainly not enough of a difference to even think of using the word gray.
 
Ajemsuhgao said:
I have my LCD monitor in front of me, and a CRT right next to it, both with the same exact wallpaper. There is barely any difference in the two. Certainly not enough of a difference to even think of using the word gray.
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Calibrate that CRT monitor. Even if the CRT is crap, you should be noticing a large difference in the two. CRT should be inky black AND have good shadow detail in dark games.
 
1-D_FTW said:
Calibrate that CRT monitor. Even if the CRT is crap, you should be noticing a large difference in the two. CRT should be inky black AND have good shadow detail in dark games.
Click to expand...

My CRT monitor is dark compared my other CRT monitors. Black is completely black on that. There is a difference in the two monitors, but again, not anything near "gray".
 
I don't think many people have seen a good plasma in action in this thread. With a good plasma you can't even see the transition from the screen to the bezel in a dark room.

Turn off all the lights and an LCD will still glow black and cast light into the room during a dark or black scene. Burn-in is a thing of the past as well.

Class_A_Ninja said:
No, they are on par with my Panasonic G10. Buh-dum-chhhhhh.
Click to expand...

Hopefully Panasonic corrects their issues this year. If not my understanding is they'll be able to use Kuro tech in the 2011 line.
 
Plasma not doing that much better itself. Wealth of black level issues and sets that look more blue then black with current models.
 
You will have to adjust the backlight setting and stuff to get the best out of it.

Also 24" LCDs are generally made differently from those 32 or over (or at least they were last time I looked into this) so dont judge the whole technology on this :)

Oh you can also get LED backlit LCDs now that turn off the backlight for specific, black, areas of the screen.
 
Ajemsuhgao said:
I have my LCD monitor in front of me, and a CRT right next to it, both with the same exact wallpaper. There is barely any difference in the two. Certainly not enough of a difference to even think of using the word gray.
Click to expand...

Have you tried comparing them in a pitch black room? The blacks on my Dell LCD looks fine in normal light conditions but in a darkened room the 'gray' effect is a lot more visible.
 
LCD screen tech is based on a series of giant (but ingenious) hacks added on top of the very same tech you see in wristwatches and calculators. They generate images by blocking light, and can never block 100% of it so you get the "glowing black screen" effect.

Plasmas and true LED screens create images by emitting light, so a black pixel is the same as a turned off pixel.
 
M3d10n said:
LCD screen tech is based on a series of giant (but ingenious) hacks added on top of the very same tech you see in wristwatches and calculators. They generate images by blocking light, and can never block 100% of it so you get the "glowing black screen" effect.

Plasmas and true LED screens create images by emitting light, so a black pixel is the same as a turned off pixel.
Click to expand...

I have a Pioneer Kuro and still very much get the "glowing black screen" effect.

So its either broke or ive got it set up wrong :/
 
Plasma for life. LCD is fine for when the wifey is watching crap reality shows on E and VH1. For gaming and Blu-ray, I would always go with plasma if given the choice.
 
Frankly motion resolution is a way bigger issue in LCDs than black levels. For me, anyway. First time I got an LCD and loaded up SF4 I was all "holy shit I fucked up :|".

The blur...the blur...

I got used to it though, mostly. :P
 
Atrophis said:
I have a Pioneer Kuro and still very much get the "glowing black screen" effect.

So its either broke or ive got it set up wrong :/
Click to expand...

The simplest thing you can do is turn up the contrast until white is as bright as you want it, then turn down brightness until black is as black as you want it—but no further, to be sure you don't actually "crush" your black levels; this can make dark scenes lose detail. Several DVDs have calibration screens that help you do this correctly, and you can load image files that do the same thing onto game consoles.

I set up my budget Panasonic plasma this way and I'm pretty happy.
 
I think it's weird that anyone would game on a plasma. The sharpness of LCD just lends itself more to gaming. I do think that plasma provides better color for movies though. There are benefits to both systems and just like the console wars, never trust the opinion of someone who doesn't own both.
 
Demirichris said:
I think it's weird that anyone would game on a plasma. The sharpness of LCD just lends itself more to gaming. I do think that plasma provides better color for movies though. There are benefits to both systems and just like the console wars, never trust the opinion of someone who doesn't own both.
Click to expand...

Less input lag + better motion resolution > any pro LCDs might have.
 
Demirichris said:
I think it's weird that anyone would game on a plasma. The sharpness of LCD just lends itself more to gaming. I do think that plasma provides better color for movies though. There are benefits to both systems and just like the console wars, never trust the opinion of anyone.
Click to expand...
Fixed that for you.
 
Demirichris said:
I think it's weird that anyone would game on a plasma. The sharpness of LCD just lends itself more to gaming. I do think that plasma provides better color for movies though. There are benefits to both systems and just like the console wars, never trust the opinion of someone who doesn't own both.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean with LCDs being sharper. Both plasmas and LCD screens are fixed pixel displays. If both are running at their native resolutions, shouldn't they both be similar in sharpness?
 
zigg said:
The simplest thing you can do is turn up the contrast until white is as bright as you want it, then turn down brightness until black is as black as you want it—but no further, to be sure you don't actually "crush" your black levels; this can make dark scenes lose detail. Several DVDs have calibration screens that help you do this correctly, and you can load image files that do the same thing onto game consoles.

I set up my budget Panasonic plasma this way and I'm pretty happy.
Click to expand...

Originally I ran with some settings from an AV forum but i wasnt happy as the colours were all messed up. Now I pretty much just stuck with the Optimum setting which is supposed to sort out brightness for you based on the light levels in the room.

The TV can definately do insane black levels. The background on my PS3 while in XMB is pure black, you can go an inch away and see the pixels are pumping out zero light.

But when watching a bluray or playing some games, scenes that should have that same level of black just dont. Space scenes in 2001, Moon and Sunshine all dont have pure black starfields for example. This leads me to believe its the sources itself that arent actually calling for the the display to show areas of deep black. If thats the case, black levels are kinda overhyped, for film watching at least, because there are very few times when your display will be called upon to show its stuff.

Dont get me wrong in all cases the black levels are still much better than an LCD, just that when you are actually using the TV, rather than testing it, black levels wont be what you might be expecting.

Demichris: Yes the sharpness of LCD is something i miss with my plasma. HD films and games dont have that really sharp image you get used to with an LCD, but the colours and zero motion blur make up for it. Killzone looked like a completely different game after i switched.
 
Ajemsuhgao said:
My CRT monitor is dark compared my other CRT monitors. Black is completely black on that. There is a difference in the two monitors, but again, not anything near "gray".
Click to expand...

Walk 5' to the left of each display and compare at a near 90 degree angle. Just bought a Samsung 8-series LCD HDTV, and I thought it was broken until I realized the blacks were gray, because I was not standing infront of it, but at a more extreme angle.
 
The blacks from my LCD are comparable to that of Pioneer's plasmas. But it's an XBR8, which cost me a pretty penny, and Sony doesn't make them anymore. It will last me until Panasonic gets their issues sorted out, and I'll probably get a ~60" plasma from them in the future.
 
Atrophis said:
This leads me to believe its the sources itself that arent actually calling for the the display to show areas of deep black.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this can definitely be a problem.
 
wayward archer said:
There are plasma tvs with bad input lag, and LCDs with unnoticeable lag.

And not all LCDs have bad ghosting and blurring.
Click to expand...

All LCDs have blurring. And they will until the end of time, because LCD is a POS technology.
 
Atrophis said:
The background on my PS3 while in XMB is pure black, you can go an inch away and see the pixels are pumping out zero light.

But when watching a bluray or playing some games, scenes that should have that same level of black just dont. Space scenes in 2001, Moon and Sunshine all dont have pure black starfields for example.
Click to expand...

It's true, not all sources show a true black. But this has more to do with the dynamic range your eyes capture. For example, in the XMB there are bright spots (such as the icons), your vision will adjust to see the whites properly thus making the black look deeper than they actually may be.

A space scene or, a scene in a cave, whatever, won't have those bright areas. And your eyes will adjust to see the darker areas better, so you'll pick up on the dark grays (instead of black).
 
ToD_ said:
I'm not sure what you mean with LCDs being sharper. Both plasmas and LCD screens are fixed pixel displays. If both are running at their native resolutions, shouldn't they both be similar in sharpness?
Click to expand...

Remember, sharpness (aka noise) does not equal detail. Detail loss is far more important. LCDs have horrible motion resolution (like 300-400 lines), a fact that would be far more concerning to me.

To those who own LCDs and say that they have perfect black levels: Obviously, you have never see a finely tuned CRT. It's impossible to have an LCD with black levels close to CRT because LCD needs light to generate an image. The closest LCD comes to perfect black level is when the power light is in the off position. CRT is electron based, generates black level by turning off the light source in key areas. LCD needs the whole back surface lighted. It is light that changes the properties of the LCD, generating the image. Basically, and I cannot say it enough, it's like standing in a totally black room with a flashlight. The room cannot be totally back because you have flashlight, but also you need the flashlight because you can't see without it. Hope that helps

IMO LCDs give the worst image quality. They are ideal for HTPC, but are crap for video reproduction. LCD still struggles with:

Motion resolution
Color reproduction
Black Level
Input Lag
Dead pixels (also plasma)
Noise (or what most people here call sharpness)

Why not go plasma or get a CRT off craigslist and tune it up? A finely tuned RP CRT will smoke an LCD in terms of video reproduction. It may not be good for HTPC, but every set has strengths and weaknesses. LCD just has too many.
 
Has anyone else noticed that the G10 issue has a high level of variance?

For example, recently I turn on the set and with no signal I'm like, "Damn, thing is glowing like an LCD, that black is GRAY." But as soon as I fire up SSFIV all the blacks in the images are a deep, inky black. Basically it looks great and the blacks are as dark as the border as long as there is some contrast in the signal it's receiving.

It makes me wonder how useful it is for people over at the AVS forums to do measurements on these sets in a dark room with nothing but a black frame.
 
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