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Why is the devil dipectied as a goat-like man?

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SigmasonicX said:
If Arthur C. Clarke is to be believed, (spoilers for Childhood's End)
it's because devil-like aliens help guide humanity to their next level of evolution, but this leaves the last generation of humans in despair as all of their children are so far beyond them as to be incomprehensible, and the children are beyond caring about them. Even knowing that the aliens were only there to help, this despair is sent back in time as psychic imagery, resulting in the current demonic imagery.

Or, you know, putting down non-Christian religions.
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I don't think Clarke
described them as goat-like, did he? Weren't they more or less stereotypical Balrog-style demons?
Great book, something I've been meaning to re-read for years.
 
dr3upmushroom said:
Haha, I was thinking it was cause shepherds got lonely and got into some heavy petting.
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I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the origin of satyrs as myth, I read somewhere it happens in all pastoral cultures in some degree. But I'm no expert. :P


iamblades said:
Pan and satyrs were probably where the idea came from culturally i'm sure. Again, doubtful that there where any Pan worshippers in 14th century Britain and France though.
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Oh I also doubt it, thats why I mentioned the very beginnings of archeological discoveries back in the middle ages, when the church not only consolidated the image of the devil but also condemn sexuality as sinful, as I mentioned satyrs were very sexual, and also it appears fauns and satyrs were very common in greek art, so it wasn't difficult to find erotic deciption of them. I guess it was such a prevalent image in classic greek art that when the Renaissance and Neoclassical artist movements began paintings like this weren't rare:

Nymphs_and_Satyr%2C_by_William-Adolphe_Bouguereau.jpg
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And these painting weren't about "the devil" at all, they were about greek mythology, this one is called "Nymphs and Satyr" by William Bouguereau
 
umop_3pisdn said:
Always assumed it had to do with the Roman Catholic church squashing indigenous paganism (Pan, whatever). How do you turn people against an old religion? Convince them that that god is actually evil.
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It's this mixed with Cernunnos probably. Though,

umop_3pisdn said:
Plus I guess goats and fauns tend to be associated with lust or a kind of hedonism or whatever, Christians classically seem to be very suspicious of the forces or powers of nature (nature is seen as base, sensuous, etc).
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surely made it more appealing.

I'm surprised so many people brought up Baphomet, which is just a French corruption of Muhammad.
 
Dude goats are badass motherfuckers from those jumping and climbing vids. damn.

Look at this wise sage fucker. The secrets of the cosmos are within those horns.

df966a1cde1b04d9dad4047c3a0e72af.jpg
 
Satan or Lucifer the person in the Bible has the title Satan which means "the accuser", and has nothing to do with a scapegoat nor is his image given. He is described as masquerading as an angel of light. Angel of the morning, and perfect in all his ways before he fell. Other than that, a great Serpent and or "dragon".

The Baphomet is no different than Ba'al, Molech, Dagon, Beelzebub, Enki, Chemosh etc etc, an object of worship from amongst esoteric cults that usually ended up practicing human sacrifice, it is much newer than those others though. Along with other pantehon members they collectively received the term "daemon" from the old greak daemonious. All of which had to go underground as many converted to Christianity or Islam.

The Baphomet as the devil is more modern tarot card stuff.
 
Like a lot of Christian imagery didn't The Divine Comedy have a hand in how Satan is viewed though maybe not so much the exact goat man the OP describes.
 
Pan represents hedonism; the church promoted the idea of sacrificing worldly possessions and pleasures for an eternal afterlife in heaven. Natural and hedonistic iconography are relegated to sin, as the church ironically expected the peasants to hand off that stuff to them for "reasons" (I.e.,they were actually ironically the "devil" they made others fear). Just like all institutionalized religions, this was a giant pyramid scheme reinforced through fear,uncertainty, and doubt.

And that's why the imagery associated with the pagan goat man/diety Pan is the modern Christian devil: propaganda brainwashing bullshit.
 
Which reminds me .... why satanists are considered anti chrstians ?

It is like saying that just because you like The Joker you hate the Batman's COMICS OR MOVIES ....which features the Joker =P
 
DonasaurusRex said:
Satan or Lucifer the person in the Bible has the title Satan which means "the accuser", and has nothing to do with a scapegoat nor is his image given. He is described as masquerading as an angel of light. Angel of the morning, and perfect in all his ways before he fell. Other than that, a great Serpent and or "dragon".

The Baphomet is no different than Ba'al, Molech, Dagon, Beelzebub, Enki, Chemosh etc etc, an object of worship from amongst esoteric cults that usually ended up practicing human sacrifice, it is much newer than those others though. Along with other pantehon members they collectively received the term "daemon" from the old greak daemonious. All of which had to go underground as many converted to Christianity or Islam.

The Baphomet as the devil is more modern tarot card stuff.
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Satan, Lucifer/ Helel, and the Devil are all ambiguously distinct figures. Baphomet is very different from those, because he has a different historical association.

HStallion said:
Like a lot of Christian imagery didn't The Divine Comedy have a hand in how Satan is viewed though maybe not so much the exact goat man the OP describes.
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That Paradise Lost and The Pilgrim's progress were all very influential, but they were also drawing from older symbolism.

Muppet of a Man said:
Pan represents hedonism; the church promoted the idea of sacrificing worldly possessions and pleasures for an eternal afterlife in heaven. Natural and hedonistic iconography are relegated to sin, as the church ironically expected the peasants to hand off that stuff to them for "reasons" (I.e.,they were actually ironically the "devil" they made others fear). Just like all institutionalized religions, this was a giant pyramid scheme reinforced through fear,uncertainty, and doubt.

And that's why the imagery associated with the pagan goat man/diety Pan is the modern Christian devil: propaganda brainwashing bullshit.
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This is a very simplistic view of Asceticism that is completely ahistorical. The biggest proponents of Asceticism tended to have problematic relationships with what you are identifying as centralized religion.
 
DonasaurusRex said:
The Baphomet as the devil is more modern tarot card stuff.
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Ding ding ding. As the centuries have gone by a lot of this stuff - early pagan imagery, orthodox imagery, non-canon popular religious works like the Divine Comedy and Goetia, tarot, Laveyan satanism - has just sort of blurred in pop culture and even modern religious imagery. "The devil" as a goat or goat-man rather is an amalgam of a whole bunch of different cultural - pop and otherwise - icons. Hell, the popular depiction of Baphomet that a lot of people use as reference for drawings of "Satan" is relatively recent: the famous right-hand-patch/left-hand-path drawing posted above is from the late 19th century. Likewise with pentagrams and five-pointed star goat heads. There are roots in various different cultural symbols.

Culture and religion meet and split apart and meet again a lot throughout history like this. It's pretty fascinating.
 
That shit always creeped me out.

I think they decided on it by committee.

They just threw up a bunch of human/animal hybrid and Goat demon man was creepiest.
 
Muppet of a Man said:
Pan represents hedonism; the church promoted the idea of sacrificing worldly possessions and pleasures for an eternal afterlife in heaven. Natural and hedonistic iconography are relegated to sin, as the church ironically expected the peasants to hand off that stuff to them for "reasons" (I.e.,they were actually ironically the "devil" they made others fear). Just like all institutionalized religions, this was a giant pyramid scheme reinforced through fear,uncertainty, and doubt.

And that's why the imagery associated with the pagan goat man/diety Pan is the modern Christian devil: propaganda brainwashing bullshit.
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The rise of the popular image of Satan as a goat-like being isn't from anywhere near a time period where judeo-christian types would've given a hoot about Pan or any other folk religion.
 
XANDER CAGE said:
The rise of the popular image of Satan as a goat-like being isn't from anywhere near a time period where judeo-christian types would've given a hoot about Pan or any other folk religion.
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You sure about that? The idea that Demons have horns seems to come from Revelations. I don't know the earliest images we have of goatish demons, but it could be quite old. Additionally even if this imagining isn't particularly old, once you get to the Renaissance classic symbolism becomes important. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
 
Cocaloch said:
This is a very simplistic view of Asceticism that is completely ahistorical. The biggest proponents of Asceticism tended to have problematic relationships with what you are identifying as centralized religion.
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Well, it's certainly NOT ahistorical in the context of the Roman Catholic Church, which essentially was a propagandazing political arm and mass control mechanism of the Holy Roman Empire at the time of its institutional inception. The cult religion of Christianity was essentially assimilated and capitalized on much like a small startup with an easily monetizable product or service is snatched up by a stagnant multinational corporation in today's world.
 
Muppet of a Man said:
Well, it's certainly NOT ahistorical in the context of the Roman Catholic Church, which essentially was a propagandazing political arm and mass control mechanism of the Holy Roman Empire at the time of its institutional inception. The cult religion of Christianity was essentially assimilated and capitalized on much like a small startup with an easily monetizable product or service is snatched up by a stagnant multinational corporation in today's world.
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When exactly was the Church a tool of the HRE? Certainly not at its inception since the Holy Roman Empire wouldn't exist for several hundred years? Look at the early Ascetics; they were not high ranking. Asceticism is not associated with the saecularis but instead the regular clergy which is not the part of the Church that you are talking about.

I'm not saying the Church didn't take advantage of this sometimes, but it was hardly intentional. I'm hardly a Catholic apologist or anything, but what you're saying is kind of a load of hogwash.
 
Cocaloch said:
You sure about that? The idea that Demons have horns seems to come from Revelations. I don't know the earliest images we have of goatish demons, but it could be quite old. Additionally even if this imagining isn't particularly old, once you get to the Renaissance classic symbolism becomes important. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
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Demons are the pantheon gods and idols of the day, the Daemonious , we just use the modern term demon with modern imagery , Justin Matyr and Augustine were talking about Zues , Mithras, Saturn , Venus , Apollo etc etc when they used the word "demon".
 
Cocaloch said:
You sure about that? The idea that Demons have horns seems to come from Revelations. I don't know the earliest images we have of goatish demons, but it could be quite old. Additionally even if this imagining isn't particularly old, once you get to the Renaissance classic symbolism becomes important. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
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There's quite likely older art that depicts demons with goat horns or legs, but if we're strictly talking about the popular image of the sabbatic goat that evolved into the popular image of Satan - yeah, several hundred years off the mark. Baphomet as a concept existed a long long time before the tarot illustration - but he sort of sprung up out of nowhere when the knights templar were accused of heresy, then ironically disseminated into occult folklore afterwards without any associated imagery.

It's incorrect to state that Baphomet was designed as a goat to smear Pan and pagan folklore, because the sabbatic goat design was illustrated by an occultist who thought magic was cool as heck.
 
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