Perfect, they will be our spies.
I think most of us are being sarcastic. That would be too mean for the younger generations.
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Why not let the Southern US be its own country?
- Thread starter OrangeGrayBlue
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I think most of us are being sarcastic. That would be too mean for the younger generations.
teruterubozu
Member
No way Russia will succumb to bears.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I think you're right. However, in terms of governing it would essentially allow the south to put policies they support into action with less impediment from the left and vice versa for the north. It's not just a matter of splitting the country along ideological lines, but of allowing democracy to work more efficiently for each. However, there are obvious less extreme solutions for that problem and I guess it's not too hard to imagine that new political parties will form and create gridlock once again for both countries, just in different realms of the political spectrum than before.
Do you not understand how democracies are supposed to work? Ignoring the bullshit going on currently in Congress, democracies aren't supposed to be about having one side represented and pushing everything through. Each side is supposed to keep the other in check, hopefully resulting in something that is best for everyone.
Nathan_Drake
Member
Because I am American and I live in SC. it would be strange to have served 10 years in the USAF and then no longer be part of that country. This is crazy the more I think about it. Where would the boundary be? Mason Dixon line, VA, Carolinas, TX??? Op you are drunk. Ha
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I grew up in the south. Or at least a place culturally similar to the south (West Virginia). In terms of life experience, I'm familiar with all the shades of beliefs you come across there, just as with any other place in the country. I haven't been watching Duck Dynasty from a beach cot in Malibu or something like that.
ok...WV is a forgotten state, even within the South, and even when it's mentioned it's more of a joke. I'm afraid you're going to have to discount your entire upbringing and get some new impressions of the South.
...and Ft. Benning, Ft. Stewart, all the shit down in FL, etc. etc.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
New parties would form In each respective country to keep each other in check while allowing for governance that is, ideally, more in tune with the desires of the people living there.
and then when they disagree, do we divide that country even further?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Okay? So, you never lived in the states you mentioned, but you think W. Virginia is close enough that you can thereby extrapolate your personal, anecdotal life experiences to the point where you feel comfortable calling yourself familiar with the beliefs of millions of people in places you've never lived.
At some point, it's probably best to just admit you made a post without putting any thought into it and move on.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I can't argue with that. WV has been treated horribly for at least the last five decades. As an aside, "Hollow" is a really touching documentary about the state and the people living there.
Nathan_Drake
Member
da fuq? Dem fightin words
Country Roads take me home to the place I belong West Virginia.... John Denver knows what's up.
For what it's worth I grew up in WV and now live in SC ha
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I'd imagine there's some point where you dilute your power as a nation beyond the point where that continues to be feasible.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I don't think anecdotal evidence is really helpful in the first place other than to prove the point I was making, which is that I have had first-hand encounters with people living in highly-conservative areas for the majority of my life and therefore realize it's not ideologically monochromatic.
In terms of having an idea of what millions of people believe, you have to rely on polls and voting trends even if you live there. All of them will tell you the South is overall heavily conservative, both fiscally and socially, compared to most of the country. That's hardly a controversial statement. The idea that being their own country might be better, obviously, is what's in contention. And as I said, I think it would be an overall net loss for both although beneficial on some fronts.
The south isn't as red as you think it is. It's just the way we have shit districted down here plus our stupid winner take all political system.
Take, for instance, NC in 2014. Republicans won about 55% of the vote yet Republicans control something like 73% of the house seats
edit: Also, West Virginia and Kentucky aren't part of the south. I don't know where that comes from.
Take, for instance, NC in 2014. Republicans won about 55% of the vote yet Republicans control something like 73% of the house seats
edit: Also, West Virginia and Kentucky aren't part of the south. I don't know where that comes from.
Poodlestrike
Banned
There's a few reasons. First off, the new Southern nation would be incredibly poor, and totally unable to provide for most of its citizens. So I'd oppose them leaving first on humanitarian grounds.
Secondly, there's the principle of the thing; letting chunks of the country veer off just because they disagree on some of the issues sets a bad precedent.
And finally, I hate, hate hate the idea that somehow isolating ourselves from everyone who disagrees with us has any merit whatsoever. Yes, by our standards the South is frankly backwards on a lot of issues, but the very idea of splitting off because somehow it's better than associating with them is anathema to me.
Secondly, there's the principle of the thing; letting chunks of the country veer off just because they disagree on some of the issues sets a bad precedent.
And finally, I hate, hate hate the idea that somehow isolating ourselves from everyone who disagrees with us has any merit whatsoever. Yes, by our standards the South is frankly backwards on a lot of issues, but the very idea of splitting off because somehow it's better than associating with them is anathema to me.
Just to remind people, some people do want to secede in the south. Remember after the 2012 election when people started posting petitions to the white house website? http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/14/w...ach-660000-signatures-50-state-participation/
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/01/1...ovement-unbowed-by-white-house-rejection.html
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/01/1...ovement-unbowed-by-white-house-rejection.html
The internet allows a very tiny minority of people to be exponentially more vocal than they used to be.
I suppose from the fact that they have Southern Culture even though they lack Southern politics from the civil war.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
It's not controversial, it's blatantly incorrect. Your information is severely outdated and simply factually wrong. http://www.gallup.com/poll/167030/not-states-lean-democratic-2013.aspx
There is no doubt that southern states are traditionally conservative, but your argument would have been much more reflective of real life if you had named the states that stretched from Idaho to Oklahoma. As for national polling results, you might be shocked to see how much of the country actually voted along conservative lines. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/
If we take your logic and apply it to the real world, then the better question would be "When are the blue states going to succeed from the rest of the country." Of course, you immediately see how silly that is because their ideologies align with yours.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
It could use some tweaking. I overlooked SC and, geographically, I don't think WV counts nor would it be needed for the necessary electoral shifts in both countries.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
It wouldn't be silly. That would work just as well in terms of what I think is the potential benefit: both new countries can pass policies more reflective of their citizen's desires. In terms of population size, I feel that the south makes the most sense but you could just as easily make this about making the Midwest its own country and largely have the same effect, albeit to a lesser degree because they have fewer people.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
Yoopland. Wouldn't work. There is no industry. The primary export up there is pasties.
teruterubozu
Member
There are secessionists in Vermont, New Hampshire, Hawaii, etc. They're everywhere.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
It doesn't matter what metric you're using. You based your premise on incorrect facts, poor assumptions and gut feelings. Perhaps look at the data, then think about what you're really trying to say and try to repackage it. Right now, you're all over the place and it's a mess. If you sense a note of exasperation, it's because you're hardly the first person to pigeonhole the Bad South based on what really amounts to lasting stereotypes.
DragonSworne
Banned
Then why we still have state rights?
SecretMoblin
Member
as a lefty urban northerner who hangs out almost exclusively with other lefty urban northerners, it's kind of remarkable how people view and talk about the south and southerners
it's like they're some bizarre alien species or something, when really they just talk a little funky and call pop "coke" or some shit
they also make some pretty fantastic food, so I have a vested interest in keeping them in my country
it's like they're some bizarre alien species or something, when really they just talk a little funky and call pop "coke" or some shit
they also make some pretty fantastic food, so I have a vested interest in keeping them in my country
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And tbh, this is why this is nearly an offensive suggestion to me. I don't want to have to break out my passport to get a real sweet tea and chicken fried steak.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
As a Florida man, I would love to continue masturbating in public and eat bath salts without damn northern carpet baggers calling the police. GO HOME YANKEES
God Dayumm
Banned
Ohio is more backwards than Alabama now, so how would that work?
The UP has no industry and almost no population. You realize that there's only one US Representative for the entirety of it? It has 300,000 people. The state with the lowest population is Wyoming, and even it has over 500,000 people.
The only reason to do so is to cement permanent Republican control of both houses of congress for the foreseeable future.
You're basing this off of experiences from people living in a state that wouldn't even be part of this new country of yours? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?
thesoapster
Member
Most of them have no money. I have to wonder how good their credit would be for borrowing...
Horrible idea. Contrary opinions are a necessary thing in our government. And really, the south isn't that much different from the north politically. The vast majority of land area is probably red, but higher population centers will trend blue, just like in the rest of the states.
Also, I guess the OP forgot about the Carolinas? South Carolina was the first state to secede from the Union.
Also, I guess the OP forgot about the Carolinas? South Carolina was the first state to secede from the Union.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
It was tried. Turns out, the biggest barrier to "absolute freedom" is the fact that people are dickholes. http://panampost.com/adriana-peralt...-chile-libertarian-paradise-turned-nightmare/
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Oh, neat. A southerner. Tell us, on a scale of Jesus to Obama, how much do you love guns?
I don't think the CSA could coexist next to the North. Even today, people still whine and are butthurt about a war that happened two centuries ago. Never underestimate the victim complex of the long time southerner. Even a couple of years ago when I was in High School hearing teachers cry about Sherman, arguably the Greatest American to ever live, being a war criminal for doing what he really had to do. All of this while one of the best High Schools in the state is named after a scumbag Confederate general who massacred Negro women and children when his own unit could do nothing to stop the Union from whooping their asses up and down Georgia. A large portion really are professional victims who suffer from persecution complexes so laughable that you have to see it up front to believe it.
What you're basically arguing is that the United States should gerrymander itself into two countries based on a certain sort of politics being predominant along geographical lines that don't actually exist.
Look at an electoral map sometime maybe. You know what, I'll spare you the trouble;
I know Congress isn't the be all and end all of American politics, but it's a decent jumping off point. Here's what the Senate breakdown currently looks like (obviously; blue for Democratic, red for Republican, purple for once of each);
Here's how the House looks;
Do you notice how it's not very neat? Do you notice all those swathes of red in the North, and big clusters of blue in the South? Do you see how splitting it through the horizontal middle would do shit all to separate the colors, and that, in fact, the United States' political affiliations are extremely complex; too complex to separate political ideologies with a bisection?
So no, splitting the country in two like that wouldn't allow the Left free reign in the North and the Right free reign in the South. You wouldn't get your magic lands of efficient and organised political vision.
And while we're talking about efficiency and organisation; think about the nightmare of the split you're proposing there. You'd effectively need to create two Federal governments, two Federal judiciaries, two Federal reserves and currencies, two state departments, two militaries, two Constitutions, god the details are endless and pointless.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Don't forget county election results during a contentious presidential campain.
Cybrwzrd
Banned
Don't forget county election results during a contentious presidential campain.
As true as that is - It is such a biased picture. Kind of like how Europe is shown larger than it really is and Africa is smaller than it really is on a map projection.
If you switch it to include population, it changes greatly - taken from the same site too.
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