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[Arrogant Bastard]

Of course. Man, that sucks, sorry to hear that.

It does, because I honestly really enjoyed it. It was wonderful seeing struggling students who really didn't care at the start of the semester develop a real interest in history. Adjuncting is the worst hell in all of academe. I'll teach HS for a few years and either get another MA in Education Administration or just apply for a content specialist position.

 

[cajunator]

No harm done.

I will address your "quality teacher" point, though.

I have had numerous awful teachers that were licensed. Sat on their asses and did nothing but collect a paycheck. I know many fantastic unlicensed teachers. I am currently 3/4 of my way through a licensing program, and it has been the most worthless degree I have ever obtained (I have 3 others). The entire thing has been a breeze, and I rarely need to put serious effort into my work.

Unlicensed teachers just need to be trained on-the-job, but so do licensed teachers. Unlicensed teachers are primarily missing theory and terminology. The latter of these is minimal in value, and practical application can shore up theory, in my opinion. I think that, if you were to visit schools that house numerous unlicensed teachers, you might discover that you can't tell the difference between the two categories.

Unlicensed teachers still have 4-year degrees. They may just not have degrees in Education. Some of these individuals are extremely qualified to teach, but do not actually have a teaching degree. For example, a previous co-worker of mine was a retired Commander in the U.S. Army. In addition to teaching math, he also teaches U.S. History and a Survival Skills class. He is an incredibly upbeat person that every student looks up to because he knows how to direct a classroom to order. He is the only co-worker of mine that spoke out against mass punishing the school's students for deeds performed by the few. In my 30 years of living, I can honestly say that he is in the top 5 teachers I have ever met, and I would be grateful if my own child could have a teacher as good as he.

I am not saying unlicensed teachers are better than licensed teachers. I am saying that unlicensed teachers are often great teachers, and that the value of a teaching degree, in my opinion, is minimal. If you are still skeptical, I encourage you to find a reputable charter school and observe their classrooms.


Rather funny that you dispatch all these hardy trucker types and adore moe culture.

Everyone has their stress relief lol.

 

[CSX]

I wold disagree with this. With only on-the-job training and no educational courses, I think teaching, much more often than not, will just devolve into the teacher getting up in front of the class and lecturing. Going through a teacher ed course, however, and provided that is a good one, should convince most teachers that it is far better to get the students actively engaged in their learning and dealing with questions and issues that are relevant to them, not just have you, the teacher stand up in front of the room telling them what you think is important and telling them a bunch of facts.

I think the vast majority of training only teachers will end up like those lecturers because that is how the majority of teachers seem to teach, due to inertia, the way that school is structured, and that it is simply 'easier' to just lecture instead of creating an interesting and engaging lesson. Plus, I think quite a few teachers just like to listen to themselves talk.

I know some schools got people that literally walk into classrooms to catch this along with other red flags. Then they report to both teacher and principal and talk to see if the teacher needs to spend their holiday attending teaching sessions.

 

[Karsticles]

I wold disagree with this. With only on-the-job training and no educational courses, I think teaching, much more often than not, will just devolve into the teacher getting up in front of the class and lecturing. Going through a teacher ed course, however, and provided that is a good one, should convince most teachers that it is far better to get the students actively engaged in their learning and dealing with questions and issues that are relevant to them, not just have you, the teacher stand up in front of the room telling them what you think is important and telling them a bunch of facts.

I think the vast majority of training only teachers will end up like those lecturers because that is how the majority of teachers seem to teach, due to inertia, the way that school is structured, and that it is simply 'easier' to just lecture instead of creating an interesting and engaging lesson. Plus, I think quite a few teachers just like to listen to themselves talk.

I have taught for 2 charter schools, and both have de-emphasized lecturing and said students need to be hands-on and engaged. I can understand where you are coming from, but I have not seen evidence that it is true. All new teachers, licensed or unlicensed, go through mentorships and training through the schools. The administrators at the school have a pre-set philosophy that they want teachers to adhere to. Administrators generally do not favor lecturing these days - the kids just don't have attention spans for it. Also, all schools these days have to observe teachers during classroom instruction to rate their effectiveness; lecture-only teachers do not receive good ratings. Personally, I speak in front of the class for maybe 10 minutes out of a 60-minute class period.

You seem to have had a lot of bad teachers - were they licensed, or unlicensed?

 

[Walpurgis]

Wtf... Teachers get paid like $60-90k where I live. Less than $50k as the average for highly educated people who take abuse from idiot kids all day shouldn't be legal.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Wtf... Teachers get paid like $60-90k where I live. Less than $50k as the average for highly educated people who take abuse from idiot kids all day shouldn't be legal.

Where is this 60-90k dream land?

 

[Opto]

Ruin public services, point at ruined public services and say they're not working, administer vouchers for private schools that politicians get kick-backs from.

 

[devilhawk]

No harm done.

I will address your "quality teacher" point, though.

I have had numerous awful teachers that were licensed. Sat on their asses and did nothing but collect a paycheck. I know many fantastic unlicensed teachers. I am currently 3/4 of my way through a licensing program, and it has been the most worthless degree I have ever obtained (I have 3 others). The entire thing has been a breeze, and I rarely need to put serious effort into my work.

Unlicensed teachers just need to be trained on-the-job, but so do licensed teachers. Unlicensed teachers are primarily missing theory and terminology. The latter of these is minimal in value, and practical application can shore up theory, in my opinion. I think that, if you were to visit schools that house numerous unlicensed teachers, you might discover that you can't tell the difference between the two categories.

Unlicensed teachers still have 4-year degrees. They may just not have degrees in Education. Some of these individuals are extremely qualified to teach, but do not actually have a teaching degree. For example, a previous co-worker of mine was a retired Commander in the U.S. Army. In addition to teaching math, he also teaches U.S. History and a Survival Skills class. He is an incredibly upbeat person that every student looks up to because he knows how to direct a classroom to order. He is the only co-worker of mine that spoke out against mass punishing the school's students for deeds performed by the few. In my 30 years of living, I can honestly say that he is in the top 5 teachers I have ever met, and I would be grateful if my own child could have a teacher as good as he.

I am not saying unlicensed teachers are better than licensed teachers. I am saying that unlicensed teachers are often great teachers, and that the value of a teaching degree, in my opinion, is minimal. If you are still skeptical, I encourage you to find a reputable charter school and observe their classrooms.


Rather funny that you dispatch all these hardy trucker types and adore moe culture.

Ding ding ding.

While looking for a job 7 years ago during the recession (before I went and got my doctorate) I subbed HS chem classes. I knew more about the subject with my undergrad chem degree than the actual everyday teacher did.

 

[Piecake]

I have taught for 2 charter schools, and both have de-emphasized lecturing and said students need to be hands-on and engaged. I can understand where you are coming from, but I have not seen evidence that it is true. All new teachers, licensed or unlicensed, go through mentorships and training through the schools. The administrators at the school have a pre-set philosophy that they want teachers to adhere to. Administrators generally do not favor lecturing these days - the kids just don't have attention spans for it. Also, all schools these days have to observe teachers during classroom instruction to rate their effectiveness; lecture-only teachers do not receive good ratings. Personally, I speak in front of the class for maybe 10 minutes out of a 60-minute class period.

You seem to have had a lot of bad teachers - were they licensed, or unlicensed?

Of course they were licensed. That is really the only option in Minnesota. It sounds like the school administrations that you've experienced are actually somewhat competent and stick with a sound teaching philosophy and actually provide support and opportunity for teachers to do that. That really hasnt been the case in my experience.

And the reason why teachers shouldnt lecture isnt because kids don't have the attention spans for it, it is that everyone simply learns the material better when they are actively engaging in what they are doing. Lecturing just doesnt cut it.

 

[Karsticles]

Of course they were licensed. That is really the only option in Minnesota. It sounds like the school administrations that you've experienced are actually somewhat competent and stick with a sound teaching philosophy and actually provide support and opportunity for teachers to do that. That really hasnt been the case in my experience.

And the reason why teachers shouldnt lecture isnt because kids don't have the attention spans for it, it is that everyone simply learns the material better when they are actively engaging in what they are doing. Lecturing just doesnt cut it.

It hasn't been in the case in your experience, and I don't doubt your experience. But my point is that your experiences are with licensed teachers, and I have had many better experiences with unlicensed teachers. I think it is worthwhile to be open to those results.

"Kids" is kind of an odd term. Some of my students are 19 years old. Yes, hands-on engagement is the best way to learn. I don't disagree with you. However, there also comes a time in one's life where one may have to learn purely through lecture. There is a dilemma I often face where I am currently teaching my student better through a very interactive classroom, and knowing that my students will one day go off to college, and they will be ill-prepared to sit in a room for 3 hours and listen to a lecture. I don't doubt that the college professors are in the wrong here, but that is the world we live in.

 

[Shamrock7r]

And the reason why teachers shouldnt lecture isnt because kids don't have the attention spans for it, it is that everyone simply learns the material better when they are actively engaging in what they are doing. Lecturing just doesnt cut it.

Not to mention if you are going to go the lecture route, you have to be extremely good at engaging your audience. You see this problem a lot with college professors who went straight to their doctorates with no prior teaching experience before teaching at the college level. A lot of them are extremely smart and knowledgeable about their subject, but are walking talking powerpoints of boredom when running a lecture class.

 

[Fenderputty]

Makes you want to believe that it's some Republican conspiracy to keep people as dumb as possible so they vote Republican.

Spoiler

This is a joke post. Kind of.

You joke but ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html

 

[Piecake]

It hasn't been in the case in your experience, and I don't doubt your experience. But my point is that your experiences are with licensed teachers, and I have had many better experiences with unlicensed teachers. I think it is worthwhile to be open to those results.

"Kids" is kind of an odd term. Some of my students are 19 years old. Yes, hands-on engagement is the best way to learn. I don't disagree with you. However, there also comes a time in one's life where one may have to learn purely through lecture. There is a dilemma I often face where I am currently teaching my student better through a very interactive classroom, and knowing that my students will one day go off to college, and they will be ill-prepared to sit in a room for 3 hours and listen to a lecture. I don't doubt that the college professors are in the wrong here, but that is the world we live in.

I personally think that some lecture is fine. I am not completely against lecturing since sometimes the material dictates it. I am against lecture basically all day every day. As for college, well, I think the best way to give students the ability to sit through a 3 hour lecture is to develop metacognitive and executive function skills, not give them 'practice' with a bunch of boring lectures. Luckily, teaching metacognitive and executive funciton skills go right along with a more student-focused, consrucivist approach as well. I think this sort of approach is born out by the scientific data we have on metacognition and executive funciton, their effects, and how to develop them.

This is my other problem with teaching that I think is vastly helped by teacher education programs. I think all lessons need to have a greater purpose besides just learning the material. I think this purpose should be critical thinking, metacognition, executive funciton, etc. Even if you teach in a student-focused manner, teachers might not necessarily teach with a greater purpose in mind. I think teacher education programs can help new teachers understand this because it is a somewhat difficult concept to grasp and takes a good deal of thought when developing lessons. I think this is difficult to stress in an on the job manner. Basically, I think teaching is about teaching students how to think and develop that skill, not teaching students what to think by providing a bunch of facts and figures, even if those facts are learned in a student-oriented setting.

 

[Walpurgis]

Where is this 60-90k dream land?

Winnipeg and it's actually closer to 56k-86k.

 

[Piecake]

Winnipeg and it's actually closer to 56k-86k.

Don't worry, I am sure that will get reduced to a figure more in-line with America. I am sure Harper will follow the Republican example and cut education funding in order to keep his promise to balance the budget.

 

[Karsticles]

I personally think that some lecture is fine. I am not completely against lecturing since sometimes the material dictates it. I am against lecture basically all day every day. As for college, well, I think the best way to give students the ability to sit through a 3 hour lecture is to develop metacognitive and executive function skills, not give them 'practice' with a bunch of boring lectures. Luckily, teaching metacognitive and executive funciton skills go right along with a more student-focused, consrucivist approach as well. I think this sort of approach is born out by the scientific data we have on metacognition and executive funciton, their effects, and how to develop them.

This is my other problem with teaching that I think is vastly helped by teacher education programs. I think all lessons need to have a greater purpose besides just learning the material. I think this purpose should be critical thinking, metacognition, executive funciton, etc. Even if you teach in a student-focused manner, teachers might not necessarily teach with a greater purpose in mind. I think teacher education programs can help new teachers understand this because it is a somewhat difficult concept to grasp and takes a good deal of thought when developing lessons. I think this is difficult to stress in an on the job manner. Basically, I think teaching is about teaching students how to think and develop that skill, not teaching students what to think by providing a bunch of facts and figures, even if those facts are learned in a student-oriented setting.

Every teacher at every level preaches a love for critical thinking, etc.

The enemy of higher orders of thinking is legislators. Legislators are the ones obsessed with ensuring everything teachers do is measurable via a standardized test, which means teaches buckle under pressure to ensure their scores are high (or get fired).

Both of my employment places have emphasized higher-order thinking skills as a necessary focus in my classroom. Bloom's taxonomy is nigh-universally beloved.

I honestly can't say my own public education emphasized metacognition or executive function.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Winnipeg and it's actually closer to 56k-86k.

Wait, so are you talking 60-90k Canadian Dollar?

 

[Lime_In_Da_Coconut]

Kansas is the state that pushed for Intelligent Design crap, right?

 

[Piecake]

Every teacher at every level preaches a love for critical thinking, etc.

The enemy of higher orders of thinking is legislators. Legislators are the ones obsessed with ensuring everything teachers do is measurable via a standardized test, which means teaches buckle under pressure to ensure their scores are high (or get fired).

Both of my employment places have emphasized higher-order thinking skills as a necessary focus in my classroom. Bloom's taxonomy is nigh-universally beloved.

I honestly can't say my own public education emphasized metacognition or executive function.

Oh, I am sure they do. My experience is that most of the time is that it is either a bunch of lip service, the teachers do not really know how to illicit critical thinking and metacogntion, or that gets swiped away thanks to standardized tests. Again, this is something that a good teacher training program can help with because it can teach teachers how to develop lessons around critical thinking and metacognition in real, meaningful, and engaging ways, and not just have critical thinking be checked of the list by asking a few questions that require some analysis or thought.

A good example of this is Critical Thinking through Structured Controversy developed by the Johnson brothers. That is a teaching and lesson approach that integrates critical thinking into a deeply engaging lesson, instead of just learning a bunch of facts, then having a question at the end that is either written down or discussed, like "why did the South secede' or something.

 

[devilhawk]

Kansas is the state that pushed for Intelligent Design crap, right?

A number of years back, yes. But the creationist pushed too hard and the pendulum swung back, and from what I understand, Kansas has decent evolution education now days.

 

[Walpurgis]

Don't worry, I am sure that will get reduced to a figure more in-line with America. I am sure Harper will follow the Republican example and cut education funding in order to keep his promise to balance the budget.

This is post-Harper. He's been in office for almost 10 years and he's on his way out.

Wait, so are you talking 60-90k Canadian Dollar?

I knew this would come up. *sigh* Yes, it's Canadian. For the record, salaries haven't increased because of the recession so the salaries were in that range a few years ago too.

 

[Damaniel]

Its actually really competitive especially when you consider all the time off.

You pay shit wages, you get shit teachers, but it's not like Republicans care all that much about things like an educated populace anyway. I'm not surprised that teachers are emigrating to states that don't treat such important people like overpriced liabilities.

 

[Late Flag]

Not to mention if you are going to go the lecture route, you have to be extremely good at engaging your audience. You see this problem a lot with college professors who went straight to their doctorates with no prior teaching experience before teaching at the college level. A lot of them are extremely smart and knowledgeable about their subject, but are walking talking powerpoints of boredom when running a lecture class.

This is absolutely true. I'm a college professor, and I can't help but listen what other folks are doing in their classrooms when I'm walking down the hallway. Some of my colleagues are literally just standing up there and doing little more than reading their powerpoints out loud. If I were a student in their class, I would be bored out of my skull.

 

[jmood88]

Here's what happens when you make a conservative utopia: no one wants to live there and businesses don't want to move there.

This is absolutely true. I'm a college professor, and I can't help but listen what other folks are doing in their classrooms when I'm walking down the hallway. Some of my colleagues are literally just standing up there and doing little more than reading their powerpoints out loud. If I were a student in their class, I would be bored out of my skull.

If I have a professor like that, I just don't show up to class and print out the PowerPoints to study on my own.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Yeah can't complain about rent.

And the districts are a joke here, we're moving because we don't want to raise our eventual children here. We managed to escape.



Right? No certifications needed now in some of the Overland Park schools!

Seriously? Maybe I should look into this.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Every teacher at every level preaches a love for critical thinking, etc.

The enemy of higher orders of thinking is legislators. Legislators are the ones obsessed with ensuring everything teachers do is measurable via a standardized test, which means teaches buckle under pressure to ensure their scores are high (or get fired).

Both of my employment places have emphasized higher-order thinking skills as a necessary focus in my classroom. Bloom's taxonomy is nigh-universally beloved.

I honestly can't say my own public education emphasized metacognition or executive function.

It was getting bad in some districts around me, where the curriculum was spelled out to the most minuscule detail. The lesson, how to teach the lesson, what to say, etc. You could not deviate from the lesson plan at all or you would receive disciplinary action.

 

[Legato.Reborn-]

Seriously? Maybe I should look into this.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article27264886.html

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

It certainly does in NY, I can't speak to Kansas.

It most certainly does not. You can reach without a masters in NY. You need a teaching certificate. Some states do require it but not NY.