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Why there is no matchmaking in Destiny's Raid

Calling something that involves 6 people a "raid" is a joke. For any other game that involves raids, that is a group.
 
Apath said:
Calling something that involves 6 people a "raid" is a joke. For any other game that involves raids, that is a group.
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different kind of games, how do they work

btw, the content is called a raid,not the group.

the group is called a fireteam.

in MMOs like WoW it's also not called a "raid" it's called a "raid group". Or even has a totally different name in other MMOs.
The actual activity is a "raid". the group of bigger size going into it is a "raid group". People just shorten it and say "let's make a raid" cause we shorten everything.
 
A similar gripe I have is that with how hard tier 3 court of oryx is, it's really annoying that they don't let you do patrols with a fire team over 3 people.
 
Apath said:
Calling something that involves 6 people a "raid" is a joke. For any other game that involves raids, that is a group.
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The number of players is not really that important since for a lone player, the game experience is exactly like in a traditional raid. The thing lasts for hours in progress weeks, goes in a flash on farm, the fights are 10-15 min long with unforgiving positioning and Patchwork dps races, and you never get any loot because rng screws you up. I used to raid from Vanilla WoW onwards as MT/OT and the 6 person groups in Destiny just strip away some needless organizing and waiting for people to come away from bio breaks.
 
Apath said:
Calling something that involves 6 people a "raid" is a joke. For any other game that involves raids, that is a group.
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Not really. Raid is an activity, it doesn't have anything to do with how many people are in the 'fireteam' or 'group'.
 
darkinstinct said:
Not as much as not being able to play them at all.
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It doesn't even suck. As you mentioned it allows loads of players to enjoy the content, content the devs spent time and money creating (so why not put it the hands of as many players as possible?). But random matchmaking for raids was transformative for the genre. I made many new friends in WoW, learned to play better, and it being an option essentially elevates the skill of all players because it gives them access to the content and over time it becomes routine. They later pass that experience along to players new to the content by offering advice and assistance, making the content more approachable and worthwhile.

I must have written this many times on GAF but really, this idea that matchmaking only results in antisocial behavior was never the norm and is demonstrably false by merely looking towards the many MMO's that utilize such social tools. It's a silly argument that for some reason is a popular one within Destiny circles. On top of all that, including it would not prevent people from only playing the content with friends. Adding it is a win/win.

Edit: additionally, it seems like something that would be most beneficial in a console environment, where players tend to be more casual and play less than in traditional PC MM settings.
 
Smooth Operator said:
It already works on game with harder content. I don't need more arguments than that.
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So with your logic, if I find a completely unrelated game with (arguably) easier content where matchmaking does not work, I have a counter argument? Thats not how any of this works.

Please just tell me how exactly you imagine a kings fall raid would go down with 6 random players that just wanted to try that raid thingy out. Players with no prior knowlege of the raid included, players without mic included, players not willing to follow orders, leaving etc. Its bound to be a bad experience.

Then think about word of mouth. Whats going to happen if Joe Sixpacks rage quits after his 8 hour totem run with 2 hours at the ship puzzle. No loot whatsoever. I give you two possibilities:
a) He realizes: "My bad I should not have chosen the option of raid matchmaking, silly me. Next time I'll try lfg"
b) FUUUUUU this is the worst game evar. I'm going to tell all my friends and peers about it. I'll post rage threads online and tweet nasty stuff.

So whats more likely going to happen with a player not willing to put time into searching a group for a raid in first place?

darkinstinct said:
Not as much as not being able to play them at all.
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Thats exactly where I disagree. In this case it would be worse. Having additional options is not always better. It can be worse if the option is plain out bad. It will draw players away from raids and even away from the game. Thats the exact opposite of what bungie wants to happen.
 
I can understand why there's no matchmaking in the raid, especially with the amount of teamwork and communication required, but there's no reason why they can't make it optional.

There's absolutely no reason why the nightfall shouldn't have matchmaking though, especially since they changed it so that you don't get kicked to orbit if you wipe.
 
Dangansona said:
It works well in FFXIV, but while I can't speak for post-game because I didn't get far past the end of the game, iirc dungeons are 1.5 hours max. I hear Destiny raids go much longer.
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They really don't however in FF14, duty finder is cross server and, not sure how the 24 mans go but all 8 mans I've done in FF14 were zerg rushes with no communication whatsoever unless someone screwed up and like a minimum of 4 players had a reason to gang up on a player for their mistake.

And I mean, that's main story required stuff and I have seen tons of poisonous players I would never want to play with again on my way to 60, Bismarck pugs being a very good example there since the three times it was just attempted facerolls with no proper communication unless there was a reason to talk down on a player, and don't even get me started on the Extreme Roulettes.

However with that said, players be players and not everyone is an asshole. As long as you aren't forced to matchmake for whatever reason in Destiny, there's no reason not to at least offer the option.
 
I can see why Bungie didn't include it, since it would be the most toxic environment ever.

If all you do is select 'Void of Glass', it'd be full of players join/quitting until they lucked in on an Atheon checkpoint.
There'd be very little incentive to play nice, and everyone would be raging over every little thing. The raids have multiple strategies and teamwork is needed.

Penalties won't work because raids regularly fail and people need to quit.

By making people use DestinyLFG and form a lobby first, it encourages a positive social atmosphere, as people discuss strategies, kick non-talkers or leave of their own accord if they don't like the raid group's planned strategy. Without that, a raid stands little chance of succeeding.

Seriously, if you don't have the patience to use DestinyLFG, then you won't have the patience to play a match-made raid.
 
Mafro said:
I can understand why there's no matchmaking in the raid, especially with the amount of teamwork and communication required, but there's no reason why they can't make it optional.
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In my post directly above yours I provided a reason to why they can't make it optional. It would almost always be a bad experience for players. Significantly worse then not playing the raid at all. So players get angry and leave Destiny, telling all their friends how bad the Raid is. So for 1 player who might get lucky with a random matchmade group, you have 99 players full of rage and disgust. Thats not a net-positive for Destiny and Bungie. And thats why they can't add it as an option.

However if you mean that there is no technical reason to why they can't add it, then I agree. Technically its totally possible, yet it makes no sense. In game LFG however that makes sense.

Mafro said:
There's absolutely no reason why the nightfall shouldn't have matchmaking though, especially since they changed it so that you don't get kicked to orbit if you wipe.
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Matchmaking in Nightfall could work. At least I can imagine cases were it would actually work.
 
Zakalwe said:
Not true.

People using MM take players out of the pool of LFG players.
The drawbacks that MM compounds (trolls, AFK, quitters, toxic behaviour) could put newer players off raids entirely if MM was their first experience.

What Destiny needs, and this has been discussed countless times, is a way to build a group in game. A flag on your character to put you up for a specific activity, build a group and advertise for a specific run, and a way to search for those flags/groups. Add some conditions like "new players welcome" or "mic required" and you're set. It isn't a difficult problem.

The player-base is so large that these groups would build quickly, and the extra layer of social interaction required to build a group would help protect against MM issues.

MM allows players to jump in on a whim without thought, a party based system would require a little more thought, a bit of discussion between the group, and allow for people to make a arrangements for things like players who might have to leave suddenly etc...
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It would also help if the world matchmaking automatically gave you players advertising for the same thing in instances. Even better would be if the game were smart enough to spot obvious signs, but taking the quest marker would do. If I'm on Venus trying to do The Taken War matchmake me with people who are there for similar things so we can group up.
 
bryehn said:
I would love this so much, because it's the only content I haven't really seen yet.
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Try DGaf. You can get a team together at whatever time is convenient for you. The hardest part about doing the raid is finding the time to do so... Oh yeah and teamwork.
 
I still can't wrap my head around how people who are interested in the raid still haven't raided yet.

I've used destinylfg for every single raid I've done, aside from one or two, and have had no trouble whatsoever in forming a group and clearing it - even during week one.

Stop making excuses and try it out. If time is an issue and for some reason you can't carve out two consecutive hours of your super busy life, then yeah, raids aren't for you.

Matchmaking would be a terrible experience.
 
I can't believe there isn't even a group finder by now. Not just for raids, but for everything, including all those difficult quests that take you to high level versions of strikes without matchmaking, like the exotic sword quest. For a supposedly social game, it doesn't try very hard to get people together.

External sites aren't the solution, it's bad game design to have your players rely on an outside source that isn't part if the game at all.

I did VoG in vanilla and that shit isn't hard, it's babies first raid levels of difficulty. I'm not convinced King's Fall is any more complicated.
 
ZangBa said:
I did VoG in vanilla and that shit isn't hard, it's babies first raid levels of difficulty. I'm not convinced King's Fall is any more complicated.
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So how do you explain the thousands of players struggling to beat Atheon? Or Kings Fall? Even in LFG groups?

Here I have a challenge for you: We build a fireteam for Kingsfall. I bet $100 that for any 3 player you choose - you are allowed to choose the most pro leet mlg ultra players you can think of- I can provide 3 idiots of even higher quality that play so bad that it is impossible for this group to even finish the raid on normal. Let alone in a decent time.

That's where the problem is. You can play 100 attempts flawlessly, if anyone else in your group fucks up at a bad time, you wipe.
 
Before TTK I said that Destiny would benefit greatly from an in-game group finder that could filter players by item level and allow you to veto based on gear, previous progress/achievements etc. From the observations I'd made I did not see any indication that VoG or Crota's End would be impossible with a group of random people. I got immediately jumped on in the thread because I'd only done the raid a couple times and was told that my opinion meant nothing and that I was probably carried.

Well now I've been raiding in TTK for a while and I cleared hard mode long before the person who decided to call me out in that thread. It wasn't easy but nobody was wiping for weeks or months to get a single kill. I did it with completely different groups too.

This game needs a group finder. Maybe not pure matchmaking, considering that the average player in Destiny can't even locate a cloaked Taken Minotaur that's shooting them in the face 10 feet away. But there's no reason they can't give us ingame tools. The community would figure things out. People would get better over time and eventually it'd be farm status for everyone.

I'm not saying you'd just hit a button on day 1 of a raid and clear it easily. Look at the current state of the game - if they added an incentive for experienced HM players to queue up for normal mode, most of us could easily guide a group of relative newbies through it. And we aren't that far in, considering the grand scheme of things. If KF is the only raid for another 6 months then it'll be considered trivial by then.
 
I used to be in the "Destiny needs MM for Raids" group until I actually put in the time to form/join groups and do them right. It's hard enough getting matched up with competent random teammates for easy stuff like strikes and crucible and even then at the first sign of struggle most will just quit out. When you add in the fact that there are multiple chests plus loot from boss fights throughout each raid, what's to stop people from getting as far as they want and just dropping.

Honestly, Bungie should put it in as an optional thing but IMO it would be fucking terrible and I think it would actually dissuade more people from Raiding than it would.
 
By all means I wouldn't mind if Bungie added matchmaking for raids and everything else people are asking it be implemented for. But then everyone who asked for it would immediately complain Nightfalls and especially raids are impossible when you have dead weight players in your group who do not understand what to do, won't listen and constantly wipe your team.

You will most likely have to wait a long time to fill even a 6-player group with decent players. And even then, there will most likely always be players who have never done the raid you are doing, which will quickly become annoying for those who have it on farm. I'm quite certain raid matchmaking will be left alone by anyone who actually wants to complete a raid, and become a nesting ground for kids who don't want some dude telling them what to do.
 
AuthenticM said:
They need to put this in the game. There's no reason not to. The people claiming otherwise have gone through heavy mind gymnastics to rationalize their position.
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Is it really that complicated for you? Matchmaking for raids sucks and is usually a waste of time. It's super easy to find people. If you can't coordinate enough to find a few people who know what to do then you probably don't stand a chance coordinating with randoms to do a raid anyway. No mental gymnastics needed.
 
MM on raids wouldn't work. There are lots of sensible reasons on this very thread and for whats worth, despite tons of errors and miscalculations in Destiny's history, it seems that this is a screw up that Bungie isn't keen to make.

But I kinda want it to happen. Specially after reading some arguments around here. I'd be on the first matches just to enjoy the chaos, dispair and insta-rage quiting caused by people with no headsets or speaking other languages.

Almost a digital babel tower.

Can you imagine? A fireteam with an american, a french, a russian, a japanese, a finnish and I, trying to speak with all of them. Would be priceless.

Bungie, bring the chaos.
 
Where are all the people who've spent literal years complaining about Looking For Raid in this thread.

After all this time a game developer actually agrees with you, and you go silent.
 
Xaero Gravity said:
And before people start saying to just form a group through the Destiny OT, try doing that as an XB1 player before making such a recommendation.
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LFG.

That place is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. I've had better LFG groups than some GAF ones I've been in. That said there should be some mechanic with appropriate filters (mic, level, gear, etc) in game for grouping up for end-game content.
 
There is this other issue with matchmaking, most of the experienced players will play with the group of friends they have rather than use MM. So you are left with people who are not experienced.

King's fall is really dependent a lot on timing and execution, now eventhough we can do normal mode just joking around in 40-50 minutes we would be having issues if we weren't all experienced and used to playing with each other.

One example I will give is how we hit a wall last week while playing HM when we had 2-3 players outside of the set raid team that we have, the difference in strategy meant they weren't used to ours and we weren't used to theirs causing miscommunication even though these were people we had played with before and even when everyone was using a mic.

MM would mean someone would most definitely leave after one or two failed attempts as it will all be about steam roll or nothing since other players are disposable when you don't talk to them.
 
Make an easier version of King's Fall with less stupid obtuse shit like jumping on platforms in order, and incentivize the matchmaking so that HM players won't mind joining up once in a while. Do the same for the old raids while you're at it so people can revisit old content without having to form up a group. Bam problem solved. Really, as much as I am one to lament its casualization WoW figured all this crap out years ago. Activision should just send some copies of that game over to Bungie.
 
anothertech said:
Strawman after strawman argument keeps being made here. 'It won't work because this possible outcome will make players dislike the experience'

Seriously guys?

Matchmaking for raids: check light lvl, check mic active, make it a requirement. Bam. Com issues over. That was tough.

They said heroic strikes would be ruined with matchmaking, and yet I group with randoms every night with no issues, no mic most of the time. Sure that's anecdotal, but no more than those saying it's terrible.
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I've never had trouble with heroic strikes with randoms. But wouldn't raids be a different matter because of the "puzzles" involved? The closest I could think of in a Strike would be moving the orb around to unlock the door on the Earth strike and the one in Venus. When I looked at the video guides online for the raid, it looks like it takes a lot more coordination and isn't simply about killing mobs or grabbing an item from point A to point B. I could be wrong though as I've never done a raid.
 
yea, Nightfall needs matchmaking--I don't even talk to the people I group with on LFG sites--none of them are difficult enough to where I should have to say a word

i likely would not play Raid matchmaking though--completion averages would probably be very very low for groups made this way
 
People are saying that MM needs to exist because having the option to play the raid is better than not at all. I think people are failing to understand that Bungie sees MM for raids as a liability and an issue and if it's going to foster a terrible experience all around without giving quality degradation on the raid then they are not going to do it period even if it locks players out of some content. And to be fair Bungie is not locking them out. There are tools out there that players can use. If they're too lazy and moronic to use it then the fault lies equally on the players. People are trying to put the blame way too much on Bungie on why MM should exist. Jeez.
 
Was playing ESO the other night doing high level dungeons with randoms from in-game matchmaking. Rolled through 3-4 before we had to call it quits; great communication, funny people, sharing loot, etc.

Do you occasionally have to boot an asshole
Or AFK, sure, but that's an exception not the norm and it comes with matchmaking.

Also had great experiences (even in full raids) back in the days of WOW 5-10 years ago.

No excuse for it to not be in destiny.
 
I think there should be matchmaking in raids for Destiny as well.

It turns into a catch-22: the only way to get good at doing a raid in Destiny is to play it with a group of 5 other people. The game will not even allow you to progress unless you have other people there.

I joined a raid from Destiny raid site, got friend requests and got invited into a party to coordinate with the other people.

We get started and things weren't going that great because I never played Crota's End before, so I was learning the layouts and enemy placement.

I died about two or three times, next thing I know one of the people in the party gets pissy and says 'you need more experience with this' over voice chat and instead of messaging me privately, I get kicked out of the party on PSN and from the group in Destiny. I messaged everyone in the group telling them what I think.

Apparently, they wanted to do Flawless Raider the first time.

I'd rather match up with strangers because they seem to stick around in strikes. I believe they would do the same with raids unlike so-called 'friends.'
 
Even LFG often gives a bad experience with quitters and people with bad attitudes and no clue what to do despite claiming experience. Matchmaking would be twice as bad.

It wouldn't really negatively affect regular raiding directly but as others have said, it really doesn't make sense for them to devote the resources to build and support a feature that they already know won't work very well.
 
There is an OT on Gag you can use.

LFG site that people use.

Bungies own forum is fine.

It only takes one bad person to ruin a raid, it is better without.
 
Xaero Gravity said:
And before people start saying to just form a group through the Destiny OT, try doing that as an XB1 player before making such a recommendation.
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Try joining a clan ( I highly recommend DadsofDestiny) or LFG. If I still had free time to raid I would invite you to join one of our teams.
 
If you've joined even a single DestinyLFG Kings Fall Raid, you'll encounter at least 1 person leaving in most groups after 2-3 wipes, which can be in as little as a 2-3 minutes.

Communication and patience is needed. Would you like to have your experience ruined by being stuck at an encounter because you continuously have members leave and you're left waiting for it to get filled back up, over and over again?

A lot of the raid requires good teamwork. When a team has members changing over and over, it's even harder to get team chemistry going. This is especially true for the final 2 encounters of King's Fall.

Matchmaking will make this worse because afk, people that won't have mics, come in at low levels, have crappy guns that won't help, might not be the class you need to help, etc.

Raid matchmaking would be a disaster.
 
There should be an lfg tool in-game for raids and there should be matchmaking for Trials. DestinyGaf is fine, but I haven't tried trials once and I think I would've if I could try it with 2 randoms against a team of randoms.
 
JackHerer said:
Even LFG often gives a bad experience with quitters and people with bad attitudes and no clue what to do despite claiming experience. Matchmaking would be twice as bad.

It wouldn't really negatively affect regular raiding directly but as others have said, it really doesn't make sense for them to devote the resources to build and support a feature that they already know won't work very well.
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It will work just as well/poorly (depending on the group) as it does now. Just make having a mic a requirement in the matchmaking algorithm and it's no different than how people group up now. I haven't known 99% of the people I've played with it Destiny from Adam. I don't know what they are going to do.
 
jgf said:
So how do you explain the thousands of players struggling to beat Atheon? Or Kings Fall? Even in LFG groups?

Here I have a challenge for you: We build a fireteam for Kingsfall. I bet $100 that for any 3 player you choose - you are allowed to choose the most pro leet mlg ultra players you can think of- I can provide 3 idiots of even higher quality that play so bad that it is impossible for this group to even finish the raid on normal. Let alone in a decent time.

That's where the problem is. You can play 100 attempts flawlessly, if anyone else in your group fucks up at a bad time, you wipe.
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I'll take you up on that bet. Find me any 3 players who meet the activity's level requirement (which MM would also do) and we will do King's Fall.

I'm a_javierp on PSN, let me know when you wanna do this. You're grossly exaggerating the difficulty of the raid. No sarcasm either, I will 100% go through with this.
 
The lack of matchmaking on all content is pretty bad, but the lack of any in-game LFG(group finder) is a real problem and weird that it's absent.

Well, weird until you consider that the story(grimoire) is not in the game either.
 
Did anyone actually read the damn article? Lol luke basically says he wants lfg in the game

Goodness destiny makes people lose their heads
 
I haven't even tried the latest raid yet because it's such a pain in the ass finding randoms in third party sites.


and before you suggest NeoGAF - I play on X1.
 
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