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[Mass Effect]

Many have over the years, countless times, named the fuck you scene as an example of the game taking itself very seriously.

And you keep using that as an excuse to not address people's assertion that it's still a very poorly done scene regardless of it's seriousness.

 

[V_Arnold]

This is the post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193045869&postcount=148

Still though, regardless of their justification, the fact that they specifically used Brokeback Mountain as the punchline comes off as pretty homophobic. There is no real joke beyond "it's Dante in the gay cowboy movie lololol"

Actually, I fail to see how using the gay cowboys can be seen as something bad unless someone associates badness with gays, you know. I do not get this argument. Or "real" cowboys shoot straight, right? Right? No, I do not get this.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And you keep using that as an excuse to not address people's assertion that it's still a very poorly done scene regardless of it's seriousness.

Because you can't objectively state that it's a poorly done scene. That's a subjective issue, I personally enjoyed the scene and many others as I saw what they were going for in many of them.

 

[Mass Effect]

Because you can't objectively state that it's a poorly done scene. That's a subjective issue, I personally enjoyed the scene and many others as I saw what they were going for in many of them.

I never said that it was.

The bolded is what people have been trying to say, but every time someone criticizes it, it's always "You just don't get it!"

 

[SparkleMotion]

If DmC came out with there being no previous Devil May Cry, people would not complain about the character. The DmC game went with an entirely new take on that world. The old Dante character design would be out of place. I was happy to see Ninja Theory put their own spin on it instead of copying what came before. It's not like the game is called Devil May Cry 5. Just accept the differences since it's not trying to be the same game.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I think at this point, if you think DmC dante is anything close to the original, you are being willfully blind or ignorant.

If you liked the new direction, fair enough, but to say Donte was the same as the original is the same as saying that Bayformers are the same as the original 80s versions. Hell, in that example there is at least one common voice actor.

Obviously they look different and have different vibes but I feel both iterations of him are full of ridiculous cheese. So all the "Uh try hard cringe" criticisms seemed really arbitrary.

It's not like DmC took itself seriously. While it wasn't hammy in the same way as the previous DMC games, it felt super campy to me.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I never said that it was.

The bolded is what people have been trying to say, but every time someone criticizes it, it's always "You just don't get it!"

Look at how the scene was brought up in this thread in the first place.

 

[foxuzamaki]

So much of the hate that game gets is because of how it was revealed and how the relationship between developer and consumer did nothing but sour over the time leading up to release. There was a condescending tone the developers always took with the series when discussing it in interviews. At one point the game director said basically said that the previous games were garbage that people who liked them were idiots. Then there was the response to the white hair shit. It was blown out of proportion, but still. They made a point to say that his original hair was anime bullshit and not realistic. Even to go as far as to put a jab at people who didn't like that change in the game. Normally, this would be considered playful, but the antagonism built up between the developer and the fan base had made this impossible to not see it as a "slap in the face." Only for them to end up using white hair Dante anyway by the end of DmC.

.

 

[SparkleMotion]

If people are complaining that DmC's lines are "tryhard" or "cringe worthy", but love "Flock off, feather face", then I am flabbergasted.

 

[plasmawave]

Obviously they look different and have different vibes but I feel both iterations of him are full of ridiculous cheese. So all the "Uh try hard cringe" criticisms seemed really arbitrary.

It's not like DmC took itself seriously. While it wasn't hammy in the same way as the previous DMC games, it felt super campy to me.

DmC DEFINITELY took itself seriously.

 

[SparkleMotion]

DmC DEFINITELY took itself seriously.

With mind control soft drinks and brainwashing Fox News rip off propoganda? Hardly.

 

[Zombegoast]

It's a boring game to play. It's trying to be a platforming while also being a Character Action game. They add nothing other than making the game longer as well as adding those stupid set piece because everyone in the industry does it. The combat is also boring, the angel weapons are weak and the demon weapons are boring to use and was forced to use them on certain enemies.

 

[Mizerman]

Because you can't objectively state that it's a poorly done scene. That's a subjective issue, I personally enjoyed the scene and many others as I saw what they were going for in many of them.

Of course it's subjective. Just because you and others liked it doesn't mean that everybody else is going to share the same opinion. That's fine. The problem is you going with the whole "oh, the story's not the issue, it's the people's" as if that's supposed to deflect criticisms. I don't fall into that line of thinking. That's messed up.

 

[Peff]

It's not like DmC took itself seriously.

https://youtu.be/UOGecP7u6Os?t=233

 

[SparkleMotion]

It's a boring game to play. It's trying to be a platforming while also being a Character Action game. They add nothing other than making the game longer as well as adding those stupid set piece because everyone in the industry does it. The combat is also boring, the angel weapons are weak and the demon weapons are boring to use and was forced to use them on certain enemies.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Brandon F]

I enjoyed DmC as a game, but didn't care for the writing or characters much at all(including Dante). Much preferred classic Dante, but never felt the need to raise a stink or post about my distaste for the re-imagining, but I get why some would.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

DmC DEFINITELY took itself seriously.

It felt like a riff on 13 year Olds idea of "Xtreme! "

Hell the opening scene alone with the pizza slice lemme know from the get go it was gonna be ridiculous. So I'm not really sure what" emotional integrity " Dante was compromising.

 

[Spman2099]

Because you can't objectively state that it's a poorly done scene. That's a subjective issue, I personally enjoyed the scene and many others as I saw what they were going for in many of them.

Well, yeah. When you are discussing games nearly everything you say is going to be subjective. I can say that the scene in question is juvenile, crass, and obnoxiously edgy, but that doesn't change how you feel about the scene. That being said, all of those criticism, with exception of the assertion that the edginess was "obnoxious", are as close to objectively true as you can get with this kind of thing.

 

[Zomba13]

https://youtu.be/UOGecP7u6Os?t=233

Satire! Over the top sillyness! Hostage exchange then execution of one of the hostages by the "good" guy!

Also, the whole thing about "yeah well it's your fault for not liking it" "thats subjective" etc well, no duh. Do we really need people to add "IMO" to every one of their posts where they post an opinion? Also, just ebcause you like it doesn't make it objectively good, just like someone not liking it and given reasons doesn't make it objectively bad. It's all subjective.

Except the DMC1 "fill your dark soul with liiiiight" scene. That is objectively bad and melodramatic but still not edgy.

 

[Pyramid head]

The tone being7 inconsistent is a fault of the game. But people aren't complaining about the tone, they're taking a scene at face value, just like they take the wig scene as NT basically saying FU to the devs when it's a typical reboot trope for a character to actively reference their old selves in some way. Your post for instance perfectly articulated why some didn't like the gameplay changes without regurgitating youtube level comments where scenes are taken out of context for the sake of arguments.


Many have over the years, countless times, named the fuck you scene as an example of the game taking itself very seriously.


I'm not saying the game's writing can't be criticized. I'd like to see better more thought out criticism.

Can you point me to an example of someone saying that they think that scene is an example of the game taking itself very seriously? I think you are either misunderstanding peoples critisism of that scene, or you're delibrately misrepresenting it.
Some people, myself included, just don't think the scene is funny. Simply saying "fuck" over and over and over again is a particularly boring joke, and the scene plays out without a sliver of wit.
It was certainly an honest stab at humour, and in no way an attempt at being 'edgy' (there are plenty of other examples of that in the game).

It was just lame.

 

[Coffee Dog]

crossing eden in this thread might as well be trying to sell us on Transformers 2 for best screenplay

it ain't workin, man

If people are complaining that DmC's lines are "tryhard" or "cringe worthy", but love "Flock off, feather face", then I am flabbergasted.

"flock off, feather face" isn't "tryhard", though

it's goofy

 

[SparkleMotion]

"flock off, feather face" isn't "tryhard", though

it's goofy

As are the lines in DmC.

 

[Coffee Dog]

As are the lines in DmC.

WET CHUNKS

 

[Spman2099]

Can you point me to an example of someone saying that they think that scene is an example of the game taking itself very seriously? I think you are either misunderstanding peoples critisism of that scene, or you're delibrately misrepresenting it.
Some people, myself included, just don't think the scene is funny. Simply saying "fuck" over and over and over again is a particularly boring joke, and the scene plays out without a sliver of wit.
It was certainly an honest stab at humour, and in no way an attempt at being 'edgy' (there are plenty of other examples of that in the game).

It was just lame.

It is supposed to be "edgy", but in the same manner that Chris Rock's humor was considered edgy in comparison to Seinfeld's humor.

 

[Zomba13]

As are the lines in DmC.

"Fuck you" The ultimate in goofs and gaffs and laughs.


Like, "Flock off featherface" and any number of silly Dante one liners or monologues can absolutely be described as cringeworthy but not for the same reason one might say the same about DmC.

Old Dante is cringy in "oh my god, you really said that, that is such a lame pun" while new Dante is cringy in a "oh god, fuck fuck fuck? Really? You think that makes you smart and clever?"

 

[SparkleMotion]

"Fuck you" The ultimate in goofs and gaffs and laughs.

"I don't like it so it's objectively bad".

 

[Mizerman]

If people are complaining that DmC's lines are "tryhard" or "cringe worthy", but love "Flock off, feather face", then I am flabbergasted.

Alright.

crossing eden in this thread might as well be trying to sell us on Transformers 2 for best screenplay

it ain't workin, man

Pfft.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

https://youtu.be/UOGecP7u6Os?t=233

I fail to see how Dante's outta place here with his design. I should probably rephrase the "serious" statement.

What I was trying to say is that it's clear the game wasn't aiming to be the apex of high art or something with its story-telling or characters. It's cheesy "badass" action with ridiculous moments.

 

[Coffee Dog]

"I don't like it so it's objectively bad".

Nobody is saying it's objectively bad

you just happen to like something that is subjectively ridiculed as poorly done dogshit

 

[Mass Effect]

Look at how the scene was brought up in this thread in the first place.

Some person not realizing it's self-aware does not negate the criticism of others who know that it is.

I don't care what they say, I'm not talking about them.

Also, you're doing it again.

 

[SparkleMotion]

Nobody is saying it's objectively bad

you just happen to like something that is subjectively ridiculed as poorly done dogshit

People are definitely trying to say that it's objectively bad.

 

[MillionStabs]

That's exactly what the new one does...

Except old Dantes one liners were actually good. New Dante just relies on swearing and edgey humor to try and make a joke. Am I supposed to laugh when he says to Vergil "I've got a bigger dick"?

 

[Zomba13]

If people are complaining that DmC's lines are "tryhard" or "cringe worthy", but love "Flock off, feather face", then I am flabbergasted.

"blah blah I don't like it objectively bad blah blah"

Two can play at that childish shit.

Spoiler

Maybe if I throw a few more "fuck you"s around I'd be as funny as DmC Dante!

Except old Dantes one liners were actually good. New Dante just relies on swearing and edgey humor to try and make a joke. Am I supposed to laugh when he says to Vergil "I've got a bigger dick"?

That is 100% an objectively hilarious joke. It hits all the major joke points 1) Penis 2) putting someone down 3)person saying it is implying they are more sexually adequate than the recipient.

 

[Mass Effect]

With mind control soft drinks and brainwashing Fox News rip off propoganda? Hardly.

As far as the tone goes and the overall seriousness of the game; DmC tries to straddle this strange line between being serious on some topics (consumerism, the "system"/corporatism, Kat's abuse) while being cringe-worthily over-the-top with others (the abortion, Mundus making the world his bitch, dick jokes (I mean really?), Dante talking shit to Mundus about his dead demon child) If it weren't for the political nature of parts of the game and it's high-school level of social commentary about it, I wouldn't have found its tone nearly as annoying. Seriously, go play the level where you're traversing that warehouse and the one going through the office building and read those messages. It's like something some teenage punk rock band would use as lyrics.

.

People are definitely trying to say that it's objectively bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmvcP71A-Wk&t=6m47s

 

[Majukun]

bcause he was clearly not just as good

 

[Coffee Dog]

People are definitely trying to say that it's objectively bad.

I mean, people are making their case as best they can for something being poorly written. of course it's subjective, its art.

I'd say that there is no universe in which i could consider that good writing and that I can't possibly understand those that do, but obviously i'm not speaking objectively, because people who disagree exist. getting caught up in subjectivity/objectivity is just semantics that dont go anywhere

 

[Chuck Norris]

Because the director made Dante into... Himself

By the end of development his design improved a lot. But I never saw the reason for removing the most iconic thing about Dante - his white hair

 

[Dahbomb]

Dmc having bad story/writing isn't an issue because most games in this genre have poor story and writing. People spend way too much effort comparing different flavors of badness.

The main reason why DmC's story/writing is put under focus is because that's why they handed it off to a Western studio to begin with. When they first announced this project I said to myself "alright the game play is probably going to be worse but at least the writing/story might elevate DMC to something better". It was different but still not all that great. Certainly not at the expense of the game play or 60 FPS they initially had.


I think both Capcom and NT have learned from this experience. If they made a DMC2 I think it would be very good alas I think Capcom is going the DMC5 route now.

 

[Seyavesh]

Let's look at what changed and didn't change with DmC, shall we.

DmC failed to change so much that actually matters. Progression is still completely linear by the chapter system sticks to the series like gum in its hair, the enemies are still punching bags, instead of getting rid of the pointless platforming they doubled down on it, the weapon/style switching is still unnecessarily convoluted, they failed to shake up the level design,

The story is a retread of DMC1 and DMC3, the concept of Limbo has little impact on gameplay, the urban environments meets demonic wonderland amount to pretty looking skyboxes instead of actually interesting level design, modern trends like cinematic set pieces and forced walking sections, boss fights are interrupted by cutscenes and scripted events, they got rid of the lock-on which breaks the combat on higher difficulties, the Angel/Devil system restricts the freedom of the combat needlessly, the weapon switching is even more convoluted by combining a toggle based weapon switch with the weapon switching of DMC3 and the stupid weapon shuffling from DMC3, weapons are now light/medium/heavy which sucks the fun out of combat even further, the combat has less options because of a more limited move set even though there's two more weapons, Dante's Devil Trigger is the worst version yet as it offers nothing beyond an anti-grav feature and a generic power up.

No, people didn't hate DmC Dante because they "hate change". They hated DmC Dante because the initial reveal was absolutely terrible, because instead of taking the criticism to heart Tameem and Capcom's Alex Jones dismissed fan concerns and insulted them instead. They hated DmC Dante because he's much less of the goofy cartoon character that people loved. They hate DmC Dante because he fucks strippers in the intro, and lives in a trailer. They hate DmC Dante because he's dressed like he's hobo. They hate DmC Dante because of the nature of the reboot his character represented a regression of all the development the original version of the character had undergone.

You can argue that some or none of those things matter. Personally, I don't really care about the changes that much because gameplay is no. 1 to me. But no one hates DmC Dante solely because they "hate change". It's a completely embarrassing notion and something that sounds like a commenter on a Daily Mail article would say than a NeoGAF poster.
I'm sick to death of every DmC related thread being the same garbage ad nauseum. Random DmC stans insulting fans over trivial bullshit while ignoring the actual interesting stuff the game did because their interest in DmC will never be anything but shallow gravy, while on the other hand a bunch of DMC weekend warriors shout about how DmC was the worst thing ever and worse than DMC2 and while also failing to acknowledge the before-mentioned great additions to the formula that DmC had.

We're so goddamn lucky that people like Rahni Tucker and NeoGAF's own TribladeX were involved in DmC because I shudder to think about what kind of shit fest DmC would have been otherwise.



The best things DmC gave us was a fully 360 degree rotatable camera system, full 360 degree maneuverability in mid-air instead of the forced jump arcs of previous games, Ricoshot, Reverse Rainstorm, Aquila's mechanics, the changes to Vergil's combat mechanics and move set, Dojo/Training Mode, extensive stat tracking found in the options, in-game speed increasing by 10% at S rank and above, the changes to the upgrade system, the ability to try out moves before buying them, generally more intuitive menu system/interface, being able to quit and continue from the last checkpoint, secret missions being available from the menu, features like Turbo and Super Mode being toggles in the main menu instead of hidden in the options, almost no forced backtracking or puzzle solving, bosses get their own separate missions, environmental hazards which are useful in combat, enemies that can parry attacks mid-air/mid-combo, charge moves charge faster and are therefore much more useful, pause combo-switching (i.e. continuing a pause combo with a different weapon) which is accompanied by a controller rumble and the flashing of the weapon, moves with just frame properties for all weapon types and not just gauntlets, improved style visual UI as Style rank up is indicated by the letter filling up, the style ranking system in DmC DE which is the best version of any game in the series, toggle-based lock-on, Bloody Palace timer option, Must Style Mode, Gods Must Die as an official feature.



You're ignoring context. Merely an hour before we have a scene where Kat explains in dead pan about how she was abused and raped by her step father who was a demon. The tone of DmC, like the originals, is all over the place.

If people misunderstood anything about the story, the game itself is to blame.

i'm just gonna quote this on every single page until people get it

 

[InfiniteNine]

Dmc having bad story/writing isn't an issue because most games in this genre have poor story and writing. People spend way too much effort comparing different flavors of badness.

The main reason why DmC's story/writing is put under focus is because that's why they handed it off to a Western studio to begin with. When they first announced this project I said to myself "alright the game play is probably going to be worse but at least the writing/story might elevate DMC to something better". It was different but still not all that great. Certainly not at the expense of the game play or 60 FPS they initially had.


I think both Capcom and NT have learned from this experience. If they made a DMC2 I think it would be very good alas I think Capcom is going the DMC5 route now.

I'm hoping NT takes what they learned making DmC: DE and apply it to some of their future games which I'd actually take a look at now! I wasn't a fan of their previous titles.

 

[Kyzon]

DmC would've been better if it was like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKHxbOg19s

I forgot about this. Maan, I love succubus.

 

[BocoDragon]

I can only speak for me and how I relate to the characters:

OG Dante was this Japanese perspective on a rock n roll character. His appeal was almost ironic: like Bayonetta, you aren't supposed to take them that seriously. Everything about the reality of the game acknowledges they're a big silly over the top pastiche. This Dante is an Iron Maiden album cover. It's a step in the direction of Brutal Legend.

Nu Dante was a character who thinks rock n roll is so serious and dramatic. I know this is overused, but I really do think the character is "emo". This is a person who puts on eyeliner and broods, with no drop of irony or self-awareness about about it. I don't particularly like people like this in real life! And the reality of the game is asking us to think he's cool too... But I don't.

I didn't get into this series to admire the power fantasy of being an edgy rocker. I think they're vaguely silly, and if the game embraced that, I could enjoy it.

Now... It is a matter of taste. What if you do have empathy for the ethos of bratty emo rockers? I have a friend who kind of is one... And lo and behold he loves Nu Dante. There's no accounting for taste...

 

[Infinite Justice]

I'm hoping NT takes what they learned making DmC: DE and apply it to some of their future games which I'd actually take a look at now! I wasn't a fan of their previous titles.

if its their combat system then maybe, if its story then no thank you.

With that said the whole tackling mental illness aspect in regards to their next game is gonna be interesting to observe.

 

[Garlador]

If people are complaining that DmC's lines are "tryhard" or "cringe worthy", but love "Flock off, feather face", then I am flabbergasted.

Bayonetta herself riffs on the second one. That automatically makes it better.

But, yeah, that line is such goofy - and memorable - fun. Most of his lines are. Old Dante chews all the scenery, hams it up to the nth degree, and generally just exists in a world where absurdly hilarious and nutty one-liners are the rule of the day... And that is precisely why we liked our living demon-killing Bugs Bunny cartoon character in a red coat.

While I'll always defend DmC as a good game, he's trying way too hard to be "cool". He's cool like how any middle-aged man would think a young kid would be cool. The other one was goofy - and yet still cool - largely because he was a natural. He just gave so few damns about the way he looked or sounded, even when he said utterly nonsensical things, that it came full circle and became something memorable and stylish. New Dante just says what my angsty teenager brother would say after a teacher told him to clean up his act and stop wasting their time.

 

[direct_quote]

Dmc having bad story/writing isn't an issue because most games in this genre have poor story and writing. People spend way too much effort comparing different flavors of badness.

The main reason why DmC's story/writing is put under focus is because that's why they handed it off to a Western studio to begin with. When they first announced this project I said to myself "alright the game play is probably going to be worse but at least the writing/story might elevate DMC to something better". It was different but still not all that great. Certainly not at the expense of the game play or 60 FPS they initially had.


I think both Capcom and NT have learned from this experience. If they made a DMC2 I think it would be very good alas I think Capcom is going the DMC5 route now.

Yah exactly. NT even had a quote on their website about elevating the story telling in games and DmC's story was no better than DMC3. Also I don't know why people keep bringing up DMC1 lines when that game came out in 2001 when most games had half assed stories, let alone most action games. In 2013 you'd expect some evolution in story development let alone by a developer who was brought on to deliver this.

 

[Head.spawn]

i'm just gonna quote this on every single page until people get it

Yeah, all of that is pretty much it.

I gave the game a chance, even after the idea of a reboot turned me off and the character redesign seemed pointless and the change in developer was questionable at best... and in the end the game wasn't any better than any of the good DMC games. It's better than DMC2 by far, but that's not saying much. I don't think it is better or holds a candle to any of the other games on any level at all (gameplay, design, art, story).

I get that some people like it and I don't step on your toes for it, but it was an overall pointless reboot IMO. I'm still waiting for an actual DMC sequel/follow-up; I think if they wanted to do something with that developer and this franchise, it should've just been a spin off instead of posting it as a reboot, because it does not stand up to that statement.

 

[Mman235]

Because people hate change.

This makes no sense given that just about every DMC entry has been drastically different. DMC 3 and 4 are closest but even then 4 has an MGS 2 type character shift (albeit in reverse). Yet every other sequel except 2 managed to be accepted despite that.

 

[Kane Zakharov]

Throughout playing DmC, one thing I've noticed is that Vergil is made out to look really weak. Not sure if that was the intention or not. There are several occasions in which Vergil asks for Dante's help multiple times, in which you would think Vergil would be able to handle. Though I guess the DLC addresses this to an extent.

I've been told OG Vergil on the other hand was played out to be a powerful and formidable opponent in the DMC games (I only played DMC4SE and DmC).

I think DmC Dante wasn't all all that bad, but he felt mediocre at best as a character. I generally enjoyed the game though, despite many of its obvious flaws.

 

[misses bull]

DmC DEFINITELY took itself seriously.

I have no idea how anyone can think this. All the fox news and slurm shit was so over the top and ridiculous that I can't see why anyone would take it seriously

 

[.....]

The backlash wasnt focused only on Dante himself , he was just part of a bigger issue. The way the entire game was handled was a mess. People just like to boil it down to Dante's design changes for some reason.