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[Inuhanyou]

Let me explain how something works, OP: Models for characters generally get made on PC at very high poly counts that make them impractical to ever use in real time. They may still wind up in prerendered cutscenes, but they'll always, always get downgraded for the actual game because it's easier to go from high detail to lower detail than the other way around, especially when very high detail versions are needed for other purposes. The fact that very high quality models exist does not mean they have to be somewhere on disc in the fucking PS3 version of the game.

You are on some sort of weird delusional downgrade crusade here and every post you make reveals how little you understand.

The thread is for discussion on how SE went from these models to those other models. Its not really a definitive question, but a discussion on something no one really knows for sure.

My view is that those models were in the game(they are like for like scenes of actual scenes in the game) and were simplified for some reason(that i am guessing was because of SE's development practices and having to account for suddenly making two sku's hence the 360 gets the worse port. And hence explaining my reasoning. Whether or not you disagree should be done without biting, this is a discussion.

???

If you went about comparing dynamic object polycouns in similar genres between the two consoles, I suspect you probably wouldn't find all that big of an advantage either way. ND's LOD0 models edge out those in Gears? Halo Reach's LOD0 models tend to have like twice as many polygons as those in KZ3. Etc.

The situations those are used at are finicky though, level 0 models. I'm just talking about what we see in game most of the time. The fidelity on screen is usually going to be higher, on the PS3, and so that would translate to the project based on the cell like FF13 pre multi decision

 

[copelandmaster]

That's not true.

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/GD_Mag_Archives/GDM_October_2010.pdf

You can read the post-mortem here on how things went wrong. 360 or not, this game was doomed to not live up to expectations.

There it is right there. Unfinished engine specs, and the creation of assets that couldn't be used in the actual game.

Oh my god, the part about poor communication between staff is unbelievably terrible.

 

[Inuhanyou]

There it is right there. Unfinished engine specs, and the creation of assets that couldn't be used in the actual game.

Well to begin with...unfortunately for SE, that's why the entire game turned out the way it did. If things are so simple that they showed off those models and assets less than a year before launch with no intention of actually putting them in the retail game, the depths of SE's mismanagement seems to run deeper than i expected.

I'm sure delivering a sub optimal port after working with PS3 for so long ate into their schedule. But from what i'm reading, that's not anywhere near enough to explain the amount of issues they had with the project, even just talking between different sections of the staff to get things moving

 

[Neo Dark]

Where was this that we were promised

I actually liked the original Lightning more. Liked the darker hair and all. Was a bit disappointed that she was changed later on.

 

[ethanny2]

There it is right there. Unfinished engine specs, and the creation of assets that couldn't be used in the actual game.

Oh my god, the part about poor communication between staff is unbelievably terrible.

Wow never know this was true about the development of XII, looked fine to me at the time. On a side note finding articles and tidbits on games/game dev is why I love NeoGaf

 

[Falk]

Where was this that we were promised


I actually liked the original Lightning more. Liked the darker hair and all. Was a bit disappointed that she was changed later on.

I'm gonna have to agree with the general consensus at the time about "looks too much like femCloud" though.

 

[HTupolev]

The situations those are used at are finicky though, level 0 models. I'm just talking about what we see in game most of the time. The fidelity on screen is usually going to be higher, on the PS3, and so that would translate to the project based on the cell like FF13 pre multi decision

Oh FFS I was being illustrative. You're blowing the extent to which PS3 has certain advantages over 360 cartoonishly out of proportion, and arguably focusing on the wrong things (it's hard to imagine a circumstance where the 360's architecture would make such an astronomical drop in dynamic object polygons make much sense).

 

[Inuhanyou]

Oh FFS I was being illustrative. You're blowing the extent to which PS3 has certain advantages over 360 cartoonishly out of proportion, and arguably focusing on the wrong things (it's hard to imagine a circumstance where the 360's architecture would make such an astronomical drop in dynamic object polygons make much sense).

Your right. Let's stop this part of the conversation as i'm out of my league on polycounts and whatnot. My original intent was just that PS3 games can be pushed harder cause coding for the cell on exclusive titles gives that extra leeway, so FF13 pre multi may have been subject to that, but again, you've given me something to think about.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Well to begin with...unfortunately for SE, that's why the entire game turned out the way it did. If things are so simple that they showed off those models and assets less than a year before launch with no intention of actually putting them in the retail game, the depths of SE's mismanagement seems to run deeper than i expected.

I'm sure delivering a sub optimal port after working with PS3 for so long ate into their schedule. But from what i'm reading, that's not anywhere near enough to explain the amount of issues they had with the project, even just talking between different sections of the staff to get things moving

The development of FF13 seemed to be a complete disaster zone as far as we can see. Also, the PS3 being an immense shit sandwich was probably a bigger reason for that (along with Square Enix themselves being mismanaged) than the mediocre 360 version existing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The development of FF13 seemed to be a complete disaster zone as far as we can see. Also, the PS3 being an immense shit sandwich was probably a bigger reason for that (a long with Square Enix themselves being mismanaged) than the mediocre 360 version existing.

I don't think that 'seemed' is the most appropriate word, as i think its pretty much confirmed, and we can take it as fact now.

 

[copelandmaster]

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Target bullshots, just like in a zillion other games. Looking for mystery where there's none.

 

[krizzx]

I was browsing through old FF10 and FF13 hype news and old builds in anticipation of FF15 news when i randomly remembered seeing earlier FF13 shots that looked distinctly different from the release game back before the game came out...i tried to dig up some of these scans again and i found these...

http://drunkengamersuk.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/final-fantasy-xiii-20080826034732584.jpg


http://drunkengamersuk.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/final-fantasy-xiii-20080826034702444.jpg

http://drunkengamersuk.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/final-fantasy-xiii-20080826034718288.jpg

http://drunkengamersuk.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/final-fantasy-xiii-20080826034725928.jpg

As you can see, the models and details on the characters are much more high quality than in the launched game, no sausage fingers for one, but also, there's hardly any visible polygon edges on the characters bodies, not to mention the faces look much better, and the dithering on the hair is severely reduced from both the launched PS3 title and even moreso compared to the subpar 360 port.

My question is...why? There are many possible answers to the question, one of which obviously being that SE was a goddamn mess at that state, in terms of both developing the game itself and the engine...

But there's also the 360 to consider. FF13 was originally a PS2 game, but then they wholesale switched over to researching CELL development, and were fully intending to launch as a PS3 exclusive before obvious financial realities made it clear that wasn't going to happen.

Is that also a possible reason? We know exclusive titles had more graphical grunt on PS4 versus 360...was shifting to multi a suitable enough reason to drop the higher quality assets?

But then there's also the PS3's state itself. We have no idea what kind of dev kits Sony had at that time, maybe it as a case of SE not anticipating the PS3's final output? But these pics are from August 2008..so it wasn't really THAT long until the game launched..so SE had to have been working with the PS3 for a long time before that..how could they not anticipate the scale of their assets?

I don't believe that its a simple case of bullshots, as this is literally better/different graphics all around than what we got, not just higher resolution and AA applied.

Anyone else have any reasoning for this disparity?

What in the world? I thought this was covered ages ago. Those are target rendered CG. All of them. They weren't downgraded. No console last gen could produce graphics like that in real time on that scale.

It was the same with MGS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaeYAW89a3M

 

[Chev]

As you can see, the models and details on the characters are much more high quality than in the launched game, no sausage fingers for one, but also, there's hardly any visible polygon edges on the characters bodies, not to mention the faces look much better, and the dithering on the hair is severely reduced from both the launched PS3 title and even moreso compared to the subpar 360 port.

Got nothing to do with 360, those shots weren't using actual in-game models. S-E routinely did this in the PS2 days already and probably still does it. If you look at old KH2 preview shots you'll find they're higher-poly (the equivalent of about 2 subdiv operators applied usually) than the final result for example.

 

[Bomber Bob]

bullshots of course

 

[adamsapple]

bullshots of course

Simplest explanations are often the most honest.

A lot of people wanted to believe the 360 version was responsible for the downgrade, the game being linear etc etc etc.

That just isn't true.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Square Enix after announcement of 360 version: "We decided to lock them at the same specs to avoid all the debates and stuff"

Their isn't parity though; PS3 ver has better image quality.

 

[Mendrox]

Simplest explanations are often the most honest.

A lot of people wanted to believe the 360 version was responsible for the downgrade, the game being linear etc etc etc.

That just isn't true.

360 version still looked more ass than the PS3 version

 

[adamsapple]

360 version still looked more ass than the PS3 version

Yeah, it most definitely did. Lower resolution, worse frame rate etc.

I'm not defending the 360 version. I'm just saying that people who think that version was the cause of the game's 'downgrades' are wrong.

 

[Rymuth]

Lightning's armpit looks like it has a stubble in the PS3 version. Way more lifelike than the plasticy shot above it.

 

[Akzel]

Downgraded? I guess I'm not too into graphics because I didn't noticed.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

The thread is for discussion on how SE went from these models to those other models. Its not really a definitive question, but a discussion on something no one really knows for sure.

My view is that those models were in the game(they are like for like scenes of actual scenes in the game) and were simplified for some reason(that i am guessing was because of SE's development practices and having to account for suddenly making two sku's hence the 360 gets the worse port. And hence explaining my reasoning. Whether or not you disagree should be done without biting, this is a discussion.



The situations those are used at are finicky though, level 0 models. I'm just talking about what we see in game most of the time. The fidelity on screen is usually going to be higher, on the PS3, and so that would translate to the project based on the cell like FF13 pre multi decision

I guess it could warrant another look into the PS3 and PC files. But whose going to dig with GBs of assets? And these models don't display in Noesis

 

[thewhitehawk]

It was downgraded because of technical reasons. It was shown off with better graphics initially because that helped them get more interest and sales.

 

[brau]

Characters are definitely low poly. Also, there is an inconsistency in environments. Some are lush and amazing looking. Some just look barren and low poly.

Still.. the game is pretty awesome. PC version looks pretty amazing. Except for the low poly of the characters at times, and the weird shader they have on them that casts weird shadows at certain angles.

 

[Falk]

I guess it could warrant another look into the PS3 and PC files. But whose going to dig with GBs of assets? And these models don't display in Noesis

It's not there. Again, the game has been out for years and you've had enthusiasts ripping the shit out of both console versions for half a decade now.

 

[Dimmle]

The graphics were the only thing about XIII besides the battle system that didn't disappoint me.

 

[HeelPower]

I think ultimately they ran out of time and much of the game had to be rushed to completion. Hence downgrade/compromise.

Right...

Even if given unlimited time and money, do you really think these real time graphics are even remotely possible on the CONSOLES in 2009 ?

Especially in a game of that length and scale ?

 

[Adaren]

That's not true.

http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/GD_Mag_Archives/GDM_October_2010.pdf

You can read the post-mortem here on how things went wrong. 360 or not, this game was doomed to not live up to expectations.

Very interesting. I'm honestly impressed that the game attained the quality it did with all of the wasted effort from miscommunication and impractical goals.

(Postmortem starts on page 26, btw)

 

[brau]

That is interesting, going through the post mortem.

I think it shows. Like i said, there are some envs that just look plain and pretty weak compared to the ones that had the time and love spent in them.

The character models is understandable. Those promotion shots are using the cinematic characters. You can see the geometry in the zippers.

All very interesting tho. glad the combat was something that benefit from their game, because if the game had bad combat, i dunn think i would play it for long.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

The graphics were the only thing about XIII besides the battle system that didn't disappoint me.

What about Hamauzu's fantastic soundtrack?

 

[Dimmle]

What about Hamauzu's fantastic soundtrack?

okay, you're right, this too

 

[Peff]

I guess the 360 was responsible for the downgrade of KH2 too!

Or, you know, bullshots.