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Wii: Gaming Industry's Financial Scapegoat.
- Thread starter jrricky
- Start date
And that is where you stumbled.PhoenixDark said:
"Games" like Wiisports, and Wiiplay, alongside such gems as Mario-Party8, are what some(Meaning the majority)people out there consider impressive titles.
When you say anyone, you mean gamers. I would agree with you, as would a majority of other Gaffers.
Think like a casual, and the Wii's library is awesome.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
But why in heaven would Phoenix think like a casual? He's not, and he's not happy with the Wii library. It's something that needs to be addressed if Nintendo is going to lead the market this gen, and in all probability that is going to be the case.moku said:
Well, he did ask who would think the Wii's library..., so I answered his question.Segata Sanshiro said:
Nintendo does indeed need to address the "hardcore" crowd a hell of alot better, but you have to remember that they as well were caught off gaurd with the Wii's success. I bet even the most optimistic graphs charting the Wii's future success at NintendoHQ could not have dreamt up such domination.
Why would you plan a meal for 50people, when you think only 10, maybe 20 are going to show up?
Third-parties are much to blame for the Wii's current library as well. ALL of thier big projects were slated to the PS3/360. EVERYONE is scrambling. In the interm, as in now, everything looks like a mess, and it is.
I fully expect(Unless some developers are still holding out hope for a PS3/360 revival, and plan on going down with the ship.) that by this time next year, just about every companies major titles, not the off-shoots, and hurried mini-game comiplations, will be built on the Wii, not the other two. They have prior commitments, and are at the point of no return on "now" games.
There was a car accident outside a while ago with my mom, so I was absent from the discussion, but it still seems that people come up with arguments about the Wiis current library.
It has been said time and time again that developers were betting on the PS3 so they already started development on games 1-2 years before. Most JUST started developing for Wii. Any other person that comes up with that argument again, I will disregard it until 2008, just like everyone else who expects PS3 to pull through by then.
It has been said time and time again that developers were betting on the PS3 so they already started development on games 1-2 years before. Most JUST started developing for Wii. Any other person that comes up with that argument again, I will disregard it until 2008, just like everyone else who expects PS3 to pull through by then.
SouthernDragon
Member
To those that say that the Wii's library doesn't appeal to them, what I wonder is, what games would appeal to you on the Wii?
Is it the concept of the Wii itself that keeps you away, or is it simply that there isn't a piece of software on the thing that has you interested?
For example, I'd understand if you love racing sims. There aren't any, so it doesn't appeal to you. You love FPS, and there isn't a decent one there yet (although I have heard of people enjoying CoD and RS), so, again, understandable.
However, as a gamer in general, I don't get it. There are fun titles there. None of them appeal to you? Oh well.
Is it the concept of the Wii itself that keeps you away, or is it simply that there isn't a piece of software on the thing that has you interested?
For example, I'd understand if you love racing sims. There aren't any, so it doesn't appeal to you. You love FPS, and there isn't a decent one there yet (although I have heard of people enjoying CoD and RS), so, again, understandable.
However, as a gamer in general, I don't get it. There are fun titles there. None of them appeal to you? Oh well.
titiklabingapat
Member
Zelda did it's job, didn't it?PhoenixDark said:
But anyway, Nintendo themselves IS pulling all the stops releasing both a mainline Mario and Super Smash within a few months of each other. Blame the third parties, who stand to lose the most if and when the Wii continues to become dominant, who still continues to act as if nothing's afoot, not Nintendo and the Wii.
Remember that Nintendo, as they've shown with the DS and the early life of the Wii, can support the home console on their own without significant third party support at all and still be number one. Third parties better be cracking by now or Nintendo itself stands to gain the most from its hardware.
All this is moot anyway. Everything will fall into place and third parties WILL come. The 360 can only support so much of them especially since it really is only doing well in one region, very lukewarm in another and total crapshoot in the third. Even then, the Wii is already outselling it by a massive margin so the lead won't last long at all.
SouthernDragon
Member
Pulling. Pulling out all the stops. You take out "the stop" in order to build momentum. You put them in to decrease it, which a company would rarely, if ever, want to do.
Otherwise, I agree, Tikablingapat. Carry on.
Otherwise, I agree, Tikablingapat. Carry on.
FlightOfHeaven said:
Yes, the software isn't compelling. If I am to take a hit on things I love - such as visuals - then I want the thing I'm taking the hit for (controller) to deliver on the promises. It has failed to do so with any singular piece of software, and so I've failed to be interested.
FlightofHeaven said:
There are approximately three games on the system to this point that I enjoyed - Zelda: TP, Trauma Center and Paper Mario.
One is a port of a Gamecube game (which happens to be the version I prefer), one is a "wiimake" of a game I purchased barely a year earlier, and one is another Gamecube game that merely got cancelled and then hastily moved to the Wii.
None of the games I enjoy do anything to prove the Wii as a concept, so it might as well be any other system... only with significantly less games, shittier graphics, audio, features and more.
NOT to say this won't change at some point in the future. Like I said in the past, the reason I originally purchased Wii was Metroid Prime III. That's finally about to release. Then Super Mario Galaxy is coming out, which is going to be awesome no matter what.
So to your original question... what game WOULD appeal to me on Wii?
My primary problem is new ideas. This was a control scheme that was supposed to hasten new ideas, for all groups of people. Fine if they want to focus on shallow mini-games and feature deprived sports packages for the uncoordinated, but on the other hand deliver me those fascinating new concepts for the hardcore that aren't simplified to the point of retardism and are as expansive and involving as I've come to desire. And, here's the critical point, that are now made possible only with Wii.
None of that has happened. The ideas go to appeal to grandma, and the recycled franchises go to appease us. Now if those recycled franchises are fun and have implemented original and innovative ideas, like Mario Galaxy, I'll still enjoy it all the same. But my overall opinion of the system will remain the same.
titiklabingapat
Member
I knew it :lolFlightOfHeaven said:
I saw somebody correct somebody else because of what I just did and I pointed it out to myself to remember that. Damn.
FlightOfHeaven said:
personally, i have no interest in motion control of any kind. if all of gaming goes that direction, then i'm done. secondly, i don't care about nintendo games, old- or new-style. zelda, mario, metroid, etc., mean nothing to me.
but that's not really all too surprising. i count, like, four games from this generation total that i want to play so far. five, if you count one based on sheer morbid curiosity.
in general, though, i'm liking the wii doing well. it makes sales-age fun, and it elicits hilarious meltdowns from the hardcare sony/microsoft types.
titiklabingapat
Member
Amir0x said:
Does it matter? Nintendo emphasized the waggle but it is by no means the end of that. Those games work and you liked them, and that's all that matters.
Again, it's up to third parties to show what they have. Not Nintendo because Metroid Prime and Mario Galaxy is coming out soon. It is the third parties dragging their feet, nothing more. Blame them, not the Wii.
SouthernDragon
Member
I can't fault you, Amirox. The game that has made me feel "This is truly possible only on the Wii" was Trauma Center. I never got to play the DS version, so it was fresh for me. Warioware is a fun diversion and a good experiment, but that's pretty much it. Zelda and Paper could have been done elsewhere, and Tippy, while interesting at first, was pretty much useless and annoying to use after a while.
I wonder what you think of RE, though. I hear that the gameplay has been enchanced significantly from the previous versions of the game, and that this is solely due to the implementation of the Wiimote.
This would imply that certain genres on the Wii, like FPS and SRPGs, are better suited to the Wii based on the control method, while some, like fighters, are not [
].
Would that justify the Wii, in some way. I'm not saying that games that truly exploit the Wii aren't necessary, but the fact alone that the Wii has already shown some improvements on existing genres/formulas should justify its existence.
I guess it'd need to be a little stronger, wouldn't it? : /
Edit:
Odysseus (great name, by the way), you've repeatedly stated your discontent with next-gen. What's up? Graphics have become much more impressive. Consoles have become powerful enough to render large worlds that seamlessly transition from one area to another. Improved physics engines allow you to interact with the world like never before.
What's wrong? Games getting stale? Getting too jaded?
And you don't like Nintendo, so that's one entire console out. Are there any other developers that you like in particular?
I wonder what you think of RE, though. I hear that the gameplay has been enchanced significantly from the previous versions of the game, and that this is solely due to the implementation of the Wiimote.
This would imply that certain genres on the Wii, like FPS and SRPGs, are better suited to the Wii based on the control method, while some, like fighters, are not [
].Would that justify the Wii, in some way. I'm not saying that games that truly exploit the Wii aren't necessary, but the fact alone that the Wii has already shown some improvements on existing genres/formulas should justify its existence.
I guess it'd need to be a little stronger, wouldn't it? : /
Edit:
Odysseus (great name, by the way), you've repeatedly stated your discontent with next-gen. What's up? Graphics have become much more impressive. Consoles have become powerful enough to render large worlds that seamlessly transition from one area to another. Improved physics engines allow you to interact with the world like never before.
What's wrong? Games getting stale? Getting too jaded?
And you don't like Nintendo, so that's one entire console out. Are there any other developers that you like in particular?
titiklabingapat said:
yes it matters. Because what it says it "Why does Wii even need to exist? I'll just play on another system, and it'll deliver on the phenomenal HD graphics I desire, with the immersive audio experience I love, and the incredible integrated online love."
Now obviously, I'm specifically referring to another system in there. But that's what it comes down to. I own a 360, yes, and that's a fairly recent thing. So if all I'd rather be doing is playing this, then yes it matters.
Your easy "out" here will be to say "ok so go play 360." And I am. But that's just ignoring the point: I purchased a Wii, I can expect things out of it just like any other person who purchased it, and it has failed to live up to even the most meager of expectations. Only those who masturbate to sales-age can reasonably be satisfied, or those who were so hopelessly wanting validation for their hobby that they've been waiting years for their mother to sit down and play a round of bowling with cheap simulated motions.
titiklabingapat said:
I don't absolve anyone from blame. It's ALL their problems. It's Nintendo's problem for leading the way with Gamecube concepts with waggle anchored around it as a crutch, it's Nintendo's problem for encouraging cheap cash-ins like Mario Party 8 and it's Nintendo's problem for having a horrific online system. On the other hand, it's third parties problem for not realizing where the industry was moving, for being so late to take the system seriously, and for taking the lazy route and doing even more porting and cheap cash-ins.
Everyone is to blame.
FlightOfHeaven said:I wonder what you think of RE, though. I hear that the gameplay has been enchanced significantly from the previous versions of the game, and that this is solely due to the implementation of the Wiimote.
This would imply that certain genres on the Wii, like FPS and SRPGs, are better suited to the Wii based on the control method, while some, like fighters, are not [
Heh, see this right here is the same problem... another one of Wii's software "highlights", to the waggle army, is... a port of a game that they can mostly be playing via backward compatibility anyway. I own it, and I suspect voicing my opinion on what I think of the control scheme would open up another can of worms that I don't have time to deal with it (I will say, I'm glad RE5 is going 360/PS3), but at the end of the day this is the issue. I don't want ports. Heck if it was anything except RE4 (one of the best games ever made) I would never have purchased it again.
Zak and Wiki hopefully will be a compelling third party experience.
SouthernDragon
Member
I can see what you mean. Well, like you said, hopefully there will be games that deliver on that promise. I hope that MP3:C turns out to be everything you want it to be. 
jrricky said:
well PS3 delivers all those things as well. But, I'm not exactly "pro-PS3". So, if you're trying to goad some hypocritical response from me... you won't get it :lol
PS3 is too expensive, doesn't have the software library in place to demand that asking price, has problematic ports, and is currently being run by a company of contradictory monkeys.
pete_townshend
Banned
Conversely, why would you plan a meal for 50 people when you know you can throw enough saltines, cheez whiz, and day old cold cuts out on a card table to feed 20 people and they will proclaim it a feast.
If you're starving and somebody
throw you a cracker, you gonna be like this:
"Goddamn, that's the best cracker
I ever ate in my life!
"That ain't no regular cracker, was it?
What was that, a Saltine?
"Goddamn, that was delicious
"That wasn't no Saltine. That was...
That was a Ritz. That wasn't a Ritz?
"God, that was the best cracker
I ever ate in my life.
"Can I have another one, please?
Please, one more."
Amirox, seriously, why dont you sell the wii? There are many other people in america trying to get one and have no luck. I am trying to import one(already paid for that mofo in advance) with no luck. Yet you are here unhappy with your purchase that could probably sell it at the same price as you bought it for. And yet you dont? It seems that you only keep it just for the sake of bitching about it. Pro tip, **** the rest fo the forum, sell it and bitch about it. You tried to like it. But it wasnt financially a good idea to keep it considering your options.
FlightOfHeaven said:
it's not that i like games less, it's just that i'm content with replaying what i have and not going all obsessive-compulsive like most here on gaf with buying whatever comes along. i played that game a bit in 2003 and 2004 and ended up with a bunch of crap. there's nothing wrong with being selective.
but on the bit about graphics, big meh. i mean, i appreciate the additional power, sure, but it's not a big selling point. i think games like ffx, god of war, ninja gaiden, kotor, halo, etc., all look perfectly fine. mario kart 64 does too, for that matter. i would be fine getting a wii instead of a 360 or ps3 if not for the apathy towards nintendo games and waggle.
Monk said:
If you read my original post, you'll realize why quite quickly.
It makes no sense to me to sell the system when I didn't give it a real test: the games I originally purchased it for haven't even released yet! Metroid Prime III and Super Mario Galaxy are around the corner. If I love them, then at least my purchase would have been somewhat justified... even if the waggle controls weren't.
A Link to the Past
Banned
What a ****ing moron. Apparently, once you fall out of the top ten, you cease to sell anymore.
(or not)
I mean shit, looking at Famitsu's top 100, so many games in there are somewhat old - look at Emerald, that's from more than two years ago and it sold more than 100k.
All that guy is trying to do is find something to troll. I would think that most games on the PS3 NEVER appearing in the top ten is worse than a port "barely making the top ten".
EDIT: Also, did the man ever consider that some people might say "hey, I can PLAY my GC RE4 on Wii! Why spend $30.00 on a somewhat updated version?"
(or not)
I mean shit, looking at Famitsu's top 100, so many games in there are somewhat old - look at Emerald, that's from more than two years ago and it sold more than 100k.
All that guy is trying to do is find something to troll. I would think that most games on the PS3 NEVER appearing in the top ten is worse than a port "barely making the top ten".
EDIT: Also, did the man ever consider that some people might say "hey, I can PLAY my GC RE4 on Wii! Why spend $30.00 on a somewhat updated version?"
I have a question for the people who are completely satisfied with the Wii's current software lineup: what were your expectations before the system was released?
I expected games that could only be created using Nintendo's proprietary technology. Games that were not only unique but were incredibly fun to play as well.
What I see are old concepts with motion controls. Fun? Maybe, but certainly not unique.
That is why I am disappointed. It seems that all of the people who are currently down on the Wii are simply waiting for software that justifies this paradigm shift.
I expected games that could only be created using Nintendo's proprietary technology. Games that were not only unique but were incredibly fun to play as well.
What I see are old concepts with motion controls. Fun? Maybe, but certainly not unique.
That is why I am disappointed. It seems that all of the people who are currently down on the Wii are simply waiting for software that justifies this paradigm shift.
titiklabingapat
Member
Godfather Wii. Wii Sports cant be done on other consoles and is actually...fun.Gigglepoo said:
Just because you didn't like a title doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. Especially if you're arguing from a GAFer's pov.
And yes, I think Wii Sports is a great game, revolutionary and alot of fun.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Gigglepoo said:
Right now, the Wii has plenty of games so that when I buy the Wii this week (good chance of getting one, believe it or not), Mario Party and Big Brain Academy and Super Paper Mario and Zelda TP and Excite Truck and the VC games and all the GameCube games that I can't play on my broken GC will hold me over for two months till MP3C, which will hold me over for three months till Mario Galaxy and Rayman, which will hold me over for a month till Brawl
I don't think I'll run out of fun stuff to play anytime soon.
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
Heh. It's alright. N-Fans will have their awesome sales numbers to cling to, to reinforce their belief that they've chosen the right team!
Hope you bought those N-stocks a while back!
titiklabingapat said:
I would agree that Wii Sports is a great start. It's a lot of fun and could not be done on another console. But that is the only game that truly takes advantage of the system and could not be done with another control scheme. And it's an abbreviated game, one that gives you a taste of five different sports but doesn't allow you to truly experience them.
I don't really see how one game that is essentially a tech demo can justify the existence of this huge shift.
I'm not arguing fun here, by the way. Fun is completely subjective. I'm talking about wholly unique concepts that demanded the need for a new control scheme. Can you honestly say Godfather Wii meets that criteria?
Again, what were your expectations and how has Nintendo lived up to them?
Segata Sanshiro
Member
LET THE SLAP FIGHT RECOMMENCE
BALLROOM BLITZ EVERYONE
BALLROOM BLITZ EVERYONE
Pureauthor
Member
Crayon Shinchan said:
...I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do here. At least, you've not made any point that would appear to be a counter to an opposing point.
Anyway, in regards to the article, I haven't played any Wii games yet, so all I will say is that his sales expectations are completely out of whack. Relative to development costs, games like Cooking Mama and RE4 have done great.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Also, note that this is the exact same situation developers went through with DS. They rushed games out, DS + those games didn't do that great. Once developers started to get a better feel of the system and after Nintendogs reinvigorated sales (among other factors), the games got better and sold better. For instance, Madden 2005 did better than 06, but 07 did better than 06.
Wii will do the same thing. It's clear that a lot of third party games' low quality was because of lack of confidence in the Wii. We've clearly seen developers shift their focus (and logically, their development teams), so we'll see better games. And looking at the Wii's early third party lineup, we're seeing cheap ports of not-TOO-successful games from last-gen, and games like Trauma Center doing incredibly well (not compared to all games, but IIRC, the best-selling Atlus game ever made).
Wii will do the same thing. It's clear that a lot of third party games' low quality was because of lack of confidence in the Wii. We've clearly seen developers shift their focus (and logically, their development teams), so we'll see better games. And looking at the Wii's early third party lineup, we're seeing cheap ports of not-TOO-successful games from last-gen, and games like Trauma Center doing incredibly well (not compared to all games, but IIRC, the best-selling Atlus game ever made).
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
Pureauthor said:
I'm just saying, you guys are so wrapped up in your sales numbers that you stop been gamers.
You guys hope that better sales will bring more focus from development studios onto the console... but it would appear, most of that focus is on cashing in.
Even the much lauded RE4 is simply a port (sure it's good, but if you've played it before, the worth of replaying it with waggle controls is questionable).
You guys can harp on about sales all you want... but the only reason a gamer, rather than an investor would be interested in this kind of stuff is because it promises better games on their console of choice.
Is that really what's happening though?
titiklabingapat
Member
Well, the huge shift is already happening. Whether or not it is justified is subjective. Speaking of subjective:Gigglepoo said:
Well, my expectations were Pikmin 3 and RTS control schemes. Nintendo already delievered(or will deliver) but third parties are a whole matter entirely. Space Tycoon to Civilization Revolution is a good start but I obviously want more. Again, I'm waiting for the third parties to stop screwing around and invest a significant amount of their time and money.
I'm very, very satisfied with what Nintendo is doing especially since they are bringing me yoga via Wii fit.
And yeah, Godfather was a nice surprise. It wasn't perfect but the control scheme made me....believe...:lol..that non Wii Sports waggle works and is fun.
Crayon Shinchan said:
Or maybe people who likes sales age happen to just like the numbers and play games. I know alot of PS3/360 sales age fans out there. They just mysteriously disappeared lately.
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
titiklabingapat said:
Probably because we've been spending time playing games and looking up news on all the cool games coming out.
titiklabingapat
Member
It's a nice, reasonable excuse if it weren't so clicheCrayon Shinchan said:Probably because we've been spending time playing games and looking up news on all the cool games coming out.
Pureauthor
Member
Crayon Shinchan said:
Okay, then, let's look at it this way.
Say Capcom released RE4Wii. The June NPD comes out and they see that it has been selling way past their expectations.
They go 'Wow, that's some nice sales! We should start making more games in the same style for the Wii!'
Of course, they can't announce anything yet. They don't have anything to show. If they really intend to start development on more games of that sort, it's most likely in conceptual stages. So to us forumites, there's no evidence that Capcom really intends to start making more games of that sort.
I'm not saying that Capcom (and other 3rd parties) have or have not decided that good sales justify more Wii games. What I'm saying is that, really, it's too soon to tell.
That's from a software perspective - which would've come even later than from a hardware perspective. E3 2006 might have caused people to cotton on to the fact that the Wii wasn going to be more than a passing blip in the current generation, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of devs didn't want the Wii to succeed - because by that time the X360 was already carving out it's niche with fantastic software sales, and the PS3 was still the system to beat - game development is always far easier when you can focus the majority of resources on a single guaranteed winner.
The earliest anyone could really tell - with cold data, not based on sentiments and feelings - that the Wii was making it big was early this year. Those who expected a sea change at E3 were wishful thinkers - leaving aside that the new E3 is a pale imitation og the preceding year's, there simply wasn't the time to get big-budget games out. You'll note that a lot of the games announced were games that required minimal dev time. We could assume that it's a fault of devs just making quick cash-ins, or devs attempting to show support for the system that's proving itself to be the runaway winner, and not having the sufficient time to do so properly.
I'm not trying to say the Wii will end up getting FFXIV, MGS5, whatever (although I'm open to the possibility - I don't have perfect knowledge of the market, nor it's trends). But I am trying to say that judging the Wii's current software situation with regards to how developers view it, and how they intend to treat it in time to come, isn't a very useful way of doign things.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Crayon Shinchan said:
...Answer this to me.
What happened with the DS?
PSP began to outpace it.
Once it sold better, third parties shifted focus.
EA declared their focus shifted to DS, and Square Enix has announced and released nearly 20 games for the DS.
I doubt they didn't look at the sales figures before making these decisions.
titiklabingapat
Member
But, but, but!A Link to the Snitch said:
A Link to the Past
Banned
titiklabingapat said:
BUT BUT BUT NOTHING TITIKLABINGAPAT
SouthernDragon
Member
But the PSP only has non-gimmicky games.
Crayon Shinchan said:
Maybe there is a need to cash in for certain companies because of less than satisfactory sales because of the ps3 not doing so well? And there are many promising games coming out for the wii in a years time so i dont really think your point is on the mark.
For example:
Nights
Soul Calibur Legends
DQS
De Blob
Mushroom Men
The Golden Compass
..are third party exclusive games that show promise.
A Link to the Past
Banned
FlightOfHeaven said:
Fixed.
<hehe>
SouthernDragon
Member
(neutral) A Link to the Snitch
Snitch
(Today, 07:00 AM)
>: |
Snitch
(Today, 07:00 AM)
>: |
A Link to the Past
Banned
FlightOfHeaven said:
Don't worry, you're already being taken care of.
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
A Link to the Snitch said:
/shrug
You show me the quality, and I'll start showing you the money.
Maybe there is quality on the way? But without a solid basis in traditional controls as there is with the DS, are developers going to come to grips as easily with the console?