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[Dalthien]

Seeing as how hardcore gamers usually tend to skew to less graphics intensive genres (shooters, shmups, rpgs, srpgs), I fail to see how that's a priority of the hardcore mindset.

That's exactly what I was thinking as well. I consider myself a hardcore gamer. I've been into gaming right from the Atari 2600 right through to the latest PC offerings, but I actually spend far more time playing emulators (MAME, NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, N64, MSX, etc.) than I do current releases. I still play and enjoy current games as well, but the graphics of a title have far less importance to me than the gameplay of a title.

Graphic-whores do not equal hardcore gamers.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

That's exactly what I was thinking as well. I consider myself a hardcore gamer. I've been into gaming right from the Atari 2600 right through to the latest PC offerings, but I actually spend far more time playing emulators (MAME, NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, N64, MSX, etc.) than I do current releases. I still play and enjoy current games as well, but the graphics of a title have far less importance to me than the gameplay of a title.

Graphic-whores do not equal hardcore gamers.

Sounds like you are ready for a Wiivolution

 

[Dalthien]

Wha?!? Aren't shooters the most graphically intesive genre? RPGs are certainly up there as well. All those jaw-dropping games at E3 were mostly shooters. And Square RPGs are shocases for CGI artistry.

Well, CG cutscenes aren't really gameplay though, are they? Traditionally, RPGs, shmups, and strategy titles have never been cutting-edge graphics during the actual gameplay portions of the game.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Hardcore gamers are the folks playing Halo, Starcraft, WoW, GRAW, Madden and Counterstrike 24/7, not the aging nerd who pokes around at classic genres from the 1980s. If you aren't into modern genres, you probably aren't a hardcore gamer any more -- you're probably just a nostalgiac who likes to think he's still relevant.

I haven't been hardcore since, I dunno, 1997. That said, I'm still a big ol' graphics whore -- it's what I fork out the money for first and foremost when it comes to new hardware.

 

[BorkBork]

By the way, why thhe fuck would Nintendo care about "low power consumption"?? Its a console... battery life isn't a factor.

Wiiconnect 24 is a big part of their design.

 

[Trurl]

... not the aging nerd who pokes around at classic genres from the 1980s. If you aren't into modern genres, you probably aren't a hardcore gamer any more -- you're probably just a nostalgiac who likes to think he's still relevant.

I haven't been hardcore since, I dunno, 1997. That said, I'm still a big ol' graphics whore -- it's what I fork out the money for first and foremost when it comes to new hardware.

You just described half of GAF and we're the hardest of the hardcore.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Hardcore gamers are the folks playing Halo, Starcraft, WoW, GRAW, Madden and Counterstrike 24/7, not the aging nerd who pokes around at classic genres from the 1980s. If you aren't into modern genres, you probably aren't a hardcore gamer any more -- you're probably just a nostalgiac who likes to think he's still relevant.

I haven't been hardcore since, I dunno, 1997. That said, I'm still a big ol' graphics whore -- it's what I fork out the money for first and foremost when it comes to new hardware.

Wait... Madden and Halo players are hardcore? I thought to be hardcore you need skills. I'm not saying you don't need skills to play those 2 games, but throw those guys into DoDonPachi or even SMB3 and they're going to stink up the room.

 

[nightez]

Here is a tidbit for those who keep thinking the Gekko or Broadway is just another G3. I grabbed this quote from the ign boards after someone posted a link on the cpu saying it's a lot more power than what people think.

"To clear things up: the top-of-the-line PPC 750, the 750GX, is the fastest 7xxx PowerPC. It's much faster than Apple's G4 (PPC 744x) at the same frequency. To call it an overclocked G3 would be quite an understatement. IBM's current 750-series PPCs even outperform G5s at the same clock speed, but don't feature 64bit integer processing. The 7xx series still is the mainline PowerPC family, the 8xxx series are special, embedded 7xx chips, and the 970 chips are nothing more than cheap POWER4 spinoffs, initially created for Apple (IBM prefers POWER4 and POWER5 over PPC970 for their own systems). And no, Gekko was no G3, it's only part of the same CPU family. But Gekko, aka PPC 750CXe, had SIMD units similar to Altivec/ VMX, the G3 only had a regular FPU."

Very intersting indeed


..

 

[Shmmeee]

That said, I'm still a big ol' graphics whore -- it's what I fork out the money for first and foremost when it comes to new hardware.

This is what I've never understood about graphics whores: why not just watch CG movies? What is it about real time graphics that gets you off? Can you honestly say you notice the graphics in a really good game? Also, why not play PC and not consoles as that will pretty much always beat out consoles for graphics.

Maybe it's my tiny "Ninthing" brain, but I don't understand why anyone would play games for anything but gameplay. There are better mediums for everything else (graphics, music, story) or do you like those as well?

 

[Drinky Crow]

The "hardest of the hardcore" are currently playing Halo or WoW, not arguing on message boards about who's "leeter than thou".

 

[Oblivion]

Wait, playing Madden makes one hard core?

 

[Battersea Power Station]

The "hardest of the hardcore" are currently playing Halo or WoW, not arguing on message boards about who's "leeter than thou".

WoW? Are you serious -- WoW is for hardcore gamers? I thought it was a refuge for gamers that suck at everything else. Jesus, all these years I've been using "hardcore" with a positive connotation only to find out just now that it's actually derragatory.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Can you even quantify gameplay? You can't have most forms of gameplay without a certain level of graphics. Graphics themselves SUGGEST various forms of gameplay, both abstract and immersive. Graphics versus gameplay is an utterly and demonstrably false dichotomy.

 

[Trurl]

Wait... Madden and Halo players are hardcore? I thought to be hardcore you need skills. I'm not saying you don't need skills to play those 2 games, but throw those guys into DoDonPachi or even SMB3 and they're going to stink up the room.

There's the regular hardcore and there is the GAF hardcore. The regular hardcore gamer likes his games to be mature, thought HALO was the best game of last gen. and doesn't bat an eye at the PS3's price tag. The GAF hardcore pimps Drill Dozer.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

I still play Starcraft. Although I shouldn't have to, damn Blizzard and its lack of Starcraft 2.

 

[Y2Kev]

Can you even quantify gameplay? You can't have most forms of gameplay without a certain level of graphics. Graphics themselves SUGGEST various forms of gameplay, both abstract and immersive. Graphics versus gameplay is an utterly and demonstrably false dichotomy.

You are totally going philosophical recently and it rocks.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Wait... Madden and Halo players are hardcore? I thought to be hardcore you need skills. I'm not saying you don't need skills to play those 2 games, but throw those guys into DoDonPachi or even SMB3 and they're going to stink up the room.

I know some crack Halo players that can fuck up some SMB3, ruin folks at SF and find time for Madden.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Can you even quantify gameplay? You can't have most forms of gameplay without a certain level of graphics. Graphics themselves SUGGEST various forms of gameplay, both abstract and immersive. Graphics versus gameplay is an utterly and demonstrably false dichotomy.

That's not how games work, in my view. Graphics are just a reference for the gameplay -- a visual aid. The gameplay is consistent of the player's movements and the player's mental processes. For example, when I play Ikaruga or whatever, the rush and satisfaction comes from my the fine-tuned movements I have to make and my mind's reaction to challenging situations. I couldn't care less that my "ship" successfully navigated a precarious level. If I had made the same exact movements and reactions, the high would not have been any different than if I was navigating a monochrome square through a bunch of lumpy pixels.

 

[Oblivion]

There's the regular hardcore and there is the GAF hardcore. The regular hardcore gamer likes his games to be mature, thought HALO was the best game of last gen. and doesn't bat an eye at the PS3's price tag. The GAF hardcore pimps Drill Dozer.

Just one thing. When you mention mature in that context, make sure to use quotes, please.

 

[Dalthien]

I haven't been hardcore since, I dunno, 1997. That said, I'm still a big ol' graphics whore -- it's what I fork out the money for first and foremost when it comes to new hardware.

You just completely agreed with my point. You said that you are a graphics-whore, but that you aren't a hardcore gamer. Which is exactly what I said. Graphics-whores are not necessarily hardcore gamers. Of the titles you listed - I've played and enjoyed Halo, Starcraft, and GRAW, but certainly not 24/7. If that is your definition of hardcare gamer, then I think that you are seriously deluded. How can someone who plays WOW or Madden, or whatever, 24/7 for months on end be a hardcore gamer, when they have obviously limited themselves to just a tiny handful of game styles and genres. To me a hardcore gamer is someone who really enjoys gaming - and who plays a wide variety of games, styles, genres - not someone who plays 2 or 3 games non-stop for a year and a half, but who have virtually zero exposure to 99% of the rest of the gaming world.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

What about Mario Galaxy's graphics couldn't be done on the Xbox?

Mario.

:O

http://wiki.joshuajamesslone.name/tiki-index.php?page=Drinky+Crow
A bit out of date now, but hey.

He often trolls Nintendo, but does not hate them. He is a lover of... standard. One of his well-known phrases is ONE CONSOLE FUTURE, meaning he'd love to just see everything on one console. PlayStation series coming closest to that in recent years, those are his consoles of preference. He also prefers the Sony model of up-front hardware losses as being a good gesture, regardless of how I've pointed out that this has given gamers neither the best technology nor the best price.

His trolling of Nintendo is due to their leaving from the road of standard. He enjoys many Nintendo games, particularly the major efforts like Zelda. He doesn't care for pretty much anything they've done to differentiate themselves in the market. DS's touch screen or Revolution's controller (which he's nicknamed the "waggle wand') are blasted as unnecessary gimmicks. Things like Nintendogs and Brain Training are non-games, and thus are to be ignored. So even though DS is a massive success in Japan, since it is largely due to the success of these non-gamers, it sidesteps his preference for the most successful console; a user base of old men and little girls won't inspire development of the game he cares about, after all.

How can you genuinely say the Wii is between the GC and the 360?

Wii is more powerful than GameCube. Wii is less powerful than Xbox 360. Thus, Wii is between the GameCube and Xbox 360.

 

[F#A#Oo]

You just completely agreed with my point. You said that you are a graphics-whore, but that you aren't a hardcore gamer. Which is exactly what I said. Graphics-whores are not necessarily hardcore gamers. Of the titles you listed - I've played and enjoyed Halo, Starcraft, and GRAW, but certainly not 24/7. If that is your definition of hardcare gamer, then I think that you are seriously deluded. How can someone who plays WOW or Madden, or whatever, 24/7 for months on end be a hardcore gamer, when they have obviously limited themselves to just a tiny handful of game styles and genres. To me a hardcore gamer is someone who really enjoys gaming - and who plays a wide variety of games, styles, genres - not someone who plays 2 or 3 games non-stop for a year and a half, but who have virtually zero exposure to 99% of the rest of the gaming world.

QFT

 

[Drinky Crow]

Gee, when I play Ikaruga, it's about the explosions and the level layouts. I'm also probably better at it then you.

 

[tsp_gatmog]

Fuck the term "hardcore gamer"

seriously.

 

[JavyOO7]

What about Mario Galaxy's graphics couldn't be done on the Xbox? Hell, it could probably be done on the GC -- the poly count really isn't that high, and it isn't using anything but current-gen (DX 7) lighting effects.

I personally thought the lighting of SMG was fantastic. Seemed next-gen to me. Did'nt know it uses current-gen lighting though.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

That's not how games work, in my view. Graphics are just a reference for the gameplay -- a visual aid. The gameplay is consistent of the player's movements and the player's mental processes. For example, when I play Ikaruga or whatever, the rush and satisfaction comes from my the fine-tuned movements I have to make and my mind's reaction to challenging situations. I couldn't care less that my "ship" successfully navigated a precarious level. If I had made the same exact movements and reactions, the high would not have been any different than if I was navigating a monochrome square through a bunch of lumpy pixels.

You should just imagine yourself playing a hard game and move your hands like you were playing it. It would be certainly be cheaper.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Gee, when I play Ikaruga, it's about the explosions and the level layouts. I'm also probably better at it then you.

Pishaw. Don't make me throw down in fisticuffs.

You should just imagine yourself playing a hard game and move your hands like you were playing it. It would be certainly be cheaper.

In Ikaruga's case, it's the level design that leads the gameplay. Think of it as art: the gameplay is the art and you need an artist to design it.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Well if you haven't played it, why are you trying to comment with such authority?

Because playing it and seeing it in motion pretty much gives you the same impression on graphics. In fact, seeing it in motion probably gives me a better idea because the player in the videos has to focus on his objectives. I'm not talking about gameplay or how fun it is or how well it works. I'm talking about graphics, and it isn't rocket science.

One thing was very clear from the show attendees. Several games on display, Mario in particular, appear to be running on a different hardware than some of the other games. It's still an open question as to why, but simple deduction would indicate that if the Wii hardware can do a game like Mario Galaxy, then it must at least be that powerful

But what was Mario Galaxy doing that was beyond the systems of this generation? The most impressive thing about the game was the large, high res (comparatively to the last Mario games) Environment mapped textures, even if they weren't the most detailed, and the more realistic-yet-cartoony lighting and reflection. That's not beyond anything this generation, and possibly not beyond the Gamecube had the Gamecube had its power tapped to the extent of the other consoles.

And before you derailed the discussion into your 'definition' of next-gen, which ironically reality hasn't quite lived up to (ie: Xbox360 games dont look significant better and neither does PS3 games and some look outright terrible - Tekken ) You made the following comment in which I initially responded to.

That statement is false. If I were to apply your obtuse definition ot next-gen, very few games would past your test. Even if you're trying for all or nothing gambit where all games on a given console must past some arbitrary graphical standard, then all 3 consoles fail. The only one that might squeek through is the 360 but that's because its already on its second generation games.

The X360 fell below my expectations of what is next gen, but even I could see that some of the games shown could not be possible on the Xbox. Kameo and GRAW didn't look as good as I expected next-gen to look, but it still surpassed, however slightly, the best visuals of this generation.

Mario Galaxy certainly can't be done on current gen hardware.

I'd like to disagree, because I've seen better on this gen...

 

[Drinky Crow]

Conversely, I doubt the Wii could do Riddick given that hardware's lack of DX8-level features (specifically SM 1.1 support/ops).

 

[nightez]

Hardcore gamers are the folks playing Halo, Starcraft, WoW, GRAW, Madden and Counterstrike 24/7, not the aging nerd who pokes around at classic genres from the 1980s. If you aren't into modern genres, you probably aren't a hardcore gamer any more -- you're probably just a nostalgiac who likes to think he's still relevant.

I haven't been hardcore since, I dunno, 1997. That said, I'm still a big ol' graphics whore -- it's what I fork out the money for first and foremost when it comes to new hardware.

Since when was Madden a hardcore game

 

[lancubap]

Drinky Crow
Banned
(Today, 02:43 PM)

:lol :lol

He's not banned. It is a trap.

 

[Matlock]

Since when was Madden a hardcore game

the same time that ikaruga became a casual game

 

[Drinky Crow]

you duders flatter yourselves

 

[Shalomi]

Fuck the term "hardcore gamer"

seriously.

QFT

I mean, do we really want to be tapping into that "xtreme" sk8r punk mentality when referring to ourselves?

I've always thought of people like us more as hobbyists.

On the subject of the Wii: I am fucking sick and tired of people using Resident Evil 4 as a benchmark for what the Gamecube is capable of.

 

[Drinky Crow]

BUY A PS2

 

[Y2Kev]

Wii is more powerful than GameCube. Wii is less powerful than Xbox 360. Thus, Wii is between the GameCube and Xbox 360.

Which is why I think the statement is--at best--used disingenuously. I offered my own example.

 

[BuzzJive]

Conversely, I doubt the Wii could do Riddick given that hardware's lack of DX8-level features (specifically SM 1.1 support/ops).

So it's not just the speed of the chips that matter - it's the architecture?

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

BUY A PS2

and Drill Dozer while you're there.

 

[lancubap]

BUY A PS2

Miao. Miao. MIAO !!!

 

[Drinky Crow]

The Wii has neither the speed nor the architecture for the "next generation" of visual performance.

 

[F#A#Oo]

The Wii has neither the speed nor the architecture for the "next generation" of visual performance.

And?

 

[Drinky Crow]

and BUY A PS2. Same caliber of visuals; vastly superior library.

 

[Mark Gonzales]

The "hardest of the hardcore" are currently playing Halo or WoW, not arguing on message boards about who's "leeter than thou".

Hardcore gamers play counter strike

 

[lancubap]

And?

And miao.

 

[Mrbob]

Mario Galaxy really didn't look that great. In fact it really doesn't look much better than Mario Sunshine, if at all. There is a lot of emptyness in the scenes of Mario Galaxy jumping around the different planets.

But it shouldn't matter. Nintendo doesn't even want the Revolution to be compared to the 360 or PS3, with all their "NEW GEN" PR talk. Why do Nintendo fanbois feel the need to try to quantify the Revolution's graphical power compared to the 360 or PS3? It is a losing battle. I think Nintendo fans are starting to feel the sting, now that real next gen looking games are starting to pop up on PS3/360, and are mad their next gen system isn't even going to come close to reproducing the same pretty scenes, even at 480P.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

and BUY A PS2. Same caliber of visuals; vastly superior library.

QFBS

 

[BuzzJive]

The Wii has neither the speed nor the architecture for the "next generation" of visual performance.

Please - share with us all that you know about the Wii architecture. I'd also love to hear your take on the new SDK libraries.

 

[NeonZ]

Mario Galaxy really didn't look that great.

True.

In fact it really doesn't look much better than Mario Sunshine, if at all.

No... just, no... The textures by themselves make this look better than Sunshine. Yes, some space areas are empty, but some some show many areas and a few effects at the same time.

 

[Avutta1978]

The Wii has neither the speed nor the architecture for the "next generation" of visual performance.

You will eat those words drinky, I promise you will.:lol :lol

 

[Ganondorf>Link]

You will eat those words drinky, I promise you will.:lol :lol

Drinky doesn't eat words, he swallows them whole.