Gotcha'
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Wii U Speculation Thread 2: Can't take anymore of this!!!
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
- Status
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
By the time Nintendo has issued the final version of the SDK and configuration guidelines to all licensees sometimes after or before E3 2012, I believe it is particularly important that all kinks most frustrating and complicated for developers have come to an absolute minimum.
After E3 2012 the developers should be facing a development environment where all elements of operational efficiency and optimiziation of computing resources are addressed and sorted, so that work on whatever software being developed can be ensured to properly meet asset management and queries in an acceptable fashion. While Wii U may not be the powerhouse some people, both consumers and developers, are looking for, not aiding areas that can easily affect both current and future portability in the system and collaboration in the business could mean an absolute disaster. Especially if Microsoft and Sony decides to bring out their solutions relatively soon after the release of Wii U.
While public comment that arose as of lately in this thread has pointed to some hickups here and there, what must be noted is that, as has been stated before, a smooth incremental learning curve shouldn't really be taken for granted, especially considering the rather special designation and form of Wii U. Engine optimization and other tasks take time, and this may be something developers have to learn without tools like a HA solution, power-on reset and perhaps even a hardware management console not at full capacity, to name a few things. While I appreciate the words of for example lherre, the lack of information provided by Nintendo and the seemingly ever-changing development kits is starting to really affect the potentially sane accrual this thread could be seeing.
I think for Nintendo to see genuine developer interest in all sectors, it must carefully plan the security of SDK solutions in regards to portability and interconnectivity before installment, configuration and deployment, and must do the best possible with the time before launch. And this not only for the current generation but for the next generation as well, as Microsoft and Sony will most likely bring out new systems to combat Wii U, and unless Nintendo has something really special to offer, I don't think the Wii U remote together with contemporary graphics (will of course evolve over time though) will suffice, especially if developers choose to utilize engines not compatible with the system.
I hope Game Developers Conference brings something new to the table, most importantly for Nintendo's business partners as the outcome of the games targeting launch (window) will ultimately set the tone for the entire generation regarding Wii U. And as Nintendo is aiming for an alluring product slate for launch, en-trammeling "speed bumps" are probably not that favored and thus there should be news, at least to some parties, soon.
After E3 2012 the developers should be facing a development environment where all elements of operational efficiency and optimiziation of computing resources are addressed and sorted, so that work on whatever software being developed can be ensured to properly meet asset management and queries in an acceptable fashion. While Wii U may not be the powerhouse some people, both consumers and developers, are looking for, not aiding areas that can easily affect both current and future portability in the system and collaboration in the business could mean an absolute disaster. Especially if Microsoft and Sony decides to bring out their solutions relatively soon after the release of Wii U.
While public comment that arose as of lately in this thread has pointed to some hickups here and there, what must be noted is that, as has been stated before, a smooth incremental learning curve shouldn't really be taken for granted, especially considering the rather special designation and form of Wii U. Engine optimization and other tasks take time, and this may be something developers have to learn without tools like a HA solution, power-on reset and perhaps even a hardware management console not at full capacity, to name a few things. While I appreciate the words of for example lherre, the lack of information provided by Nintendo and the seemingly ever-changing development kits is starting to really affect the potentially sane accrual this thread could be seeing.
I think for Nintendo to see genuine developer interest in all sectors, it must carefully plan the security of SDK solutions in regards to portability and interconnectivity before installment, configuration and deployment, and must do the best possible with the time before launch. And this not only for the current generation but for the next generation as well, as Microsoft and Sony will most likely bring out new systems to combat Wii U, and unless Nintendo has something really special to offer, I don't think the Wii U remote together with contemporary graphics (will of course evolve over time though) will suffice, especially if developers choose to utilize engines not compatible with the system.
I hope Game Developers Conference brings something new to the table, most importantly for Nintendo's business partners as the outcome of the games targeting launch (window) will ultimately set the tone for the entire generation regarding Wii U. And as Nintendo is aiming for an alluring product slate for launch, en-trammeling "speed bumps" are probably not that favored and thus there should be news, at least to some parties, soon.
AceBandage
Banned
Which he says could indeed bring it to the levels they want.
And with Nintendo actually working on the engines themselves, that's a pretty good possibility.
That's a huge leap from them actually keeping certain developing tools from devs like with the N64.
I suppose it will depend how Nintendo feels about these ongoing benchmarks.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Given the issues outlined and how early dev still is. I'm not expecting a lot of information on how powerful WiiU is from GDC.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
No he doesn't. He says "It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation."
He says the gap is very large from the performance that he would like to see. Code optimisation won't get you there. It would need another hardware boost to get to where he would like the system to be.
AceBandage
Banned
How much more can Nintendo make the dev kits better if the console is coming out in 8 months? Also why didn't Nintendo just released the Wii U last year if it was on par with the 360 for the most of the time? I'm starting to feel that devs will support Nintendo a whole year before jumping on MS console :/
AceBandage
Banned
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
NEVER!
Fourth Storm
Member
If I may, perhaps lherre is giving some of the reasonable posters in this thread more credit than we realize (I haven't seen anyone here who actually expects a PS2/PS3 level jump).
He could mean that optimization will get it to the modest expectations of the majority in this thread. But only a hardware leap would get it to what he sees as a proper next gen system.
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
Barely on par with current gen machines... when will this company ever fucking learn!
When did anyone ssy it was on par with current gen machines?
Wiiu will be a proper next gen system regardless of power.
Trying to catch up with the 5 additional pages since i last read this thread. Oh man i'm so found of this kind of frenzy that possesses and overwhelm NeoGaf when there are news. Very happy that my intervention helped to push lherre out of his lair. And thanks for the welcoming messages since my last answer 
I want to underline the fact that the two waves of data that you've received today are not at all conflicting. On the contrary, they converge to the same range of estimated power/feelings of what people saw in front of the dev kit/what is rendered on screens. So no, you're not in an emotional rollercoaster that bring you from "Wii U = XBox 360" to "Wii U is used to make Star Wars Episode 7 CGI".
A lot of you focused themselves on the "benchmark of a famous engine on the Wii U" part of his answer. But you've forgotten the most important bit.
He said that after quoting my post, where i explicitly stated that the Wii U is closer to 2x Xbox360 than 5x. It's the same thing. To be even clearer, there was a range of power (from 2x to 5x) that disseminated on the web, followed with a 1x rumor. From what i know thanks to my sources, i wanted to put an end to the 1x part, and precise that the Wii U is closer to 2x than 5x. The goal was to dampen the enthusiasm of some people who thought the Wii U will be a 5x Xbox360 in all areas, and at the same time reignite the curiosity of others who were sure that the Wii U will be on par with the current gen. And all this 2-5x number discussion depends on a lot of parameters. Understand that the 2x is a measurement of the power experienced on the screenS (note the capital letter...), that means that for the moment, what is rendered on screens (so the complexity of the scene, the fact that there are two content calculated at the same time, the effects, ia, the scale of the background, the shadows, all the IQ stuff like AA, the framerate, etc.) lead my contacts to gauge, to estimate, to say, that Wii U is 2x Xbox 360. I'll give more informations later that will explain why it's the case now, and why it may evolve. However, some hardware pieces are 4/5x more powerful/more in number than their xbox360 counterparts on paper.
Nota Bene: Of course, i would prefer to talk about real performances of the components and games engines like the poly count, the resolution, the fps, but this way of comparing consoles (the 2x thingy) has become so widespread that it's the easiest way to do it, or at least it's how my informations were told to me.
But try to read again carefully my initial post, there are overlooked parts i would say, and they could explain for example the current engine story that disappointed some of you too briskly What i can tell, and i'll develop this more another time, it's that it seems to be sizable room for optimization and that could be the cause of some hindrances met in specific cases (read, engines not built from scratch).
I want to underline the fact that the two waves of data that you've received today are not at all conflicting. On the contrary, they converge to the same range of estimated power/feelings of what people saw in front of the dev kit/what is rendered on screens. So no, you're not in an emotional rollercoaster that bring you from "Wii U = XBox 360" to "Wii U is used to make Star Wars Episode 7 CGI".
A lot of you focused themselves on the "benchmark of a famous engine on the Wii U" part of his answer. But you've forgotten the most important bit.
He said that after quoting my post, where i explicitly stated that the Wii U is closer to 2x Xbox360 than 5x. It's the same thing. To be even clearer, there was a range of power (from 2x to 5x) that disseminated on the web, followed with a 1x rumor. From what i know thanks to my sources, i wanted to put an end to the 1x part, and precise that the Wii U is closer to 2x than 5x. The goal was to dampen the enthusiasm of some people who thought the Wii U will be a 5x Xbox360 in all areas, and at the same time reignite the curiosity of others who were sure that the Wii U will be on par with the current gen. And all this 2-5x number discussion depends on a lot of parameters. Understand that the 2x is a measurement of the power experienced on the screenS (note the capital letter...), that means that for the moment, what is rendered on screens (so the complexity of the scene, the fact that there are two content calculated at the same time, the effects, ia, the scale of the background, the shadows, all the IQ stuff like AA, the framerate, etc.) lead my contacts to gauge, to estimate, to say, that Wii U is 2x Xbox 360. I'll give more informations later that will explain why it's the case now, and why it may evolve. However, some hardware pieces are 4/5x more powerful/more in number than their xbox360 counterparts on paper.
Nota Bene: Of course, i would prefer to talk about real performances of the components and games engines like the poly count, the resolution, the fps, but this way of comparing consoles (the 2x thingy) has become so widespread that it's the easiest way to do it, or at least it's how my informations were told to me.
But try to read again carefully my initial post, there are overlooked parts i would say, and they could explain for example the current engine story that disappointed some of you too briskly
What i can tell, and i'll develop this more another time, it's that it seems to be sizable room for optimization and that could be the cause of some hindrances met in specific cases (read, engines not built from scratch).And now that album cover finally makes sense - 40 years later.
AceBandage
Banned
User Name Here
Member
Less then 100 days left! *pops champagne*
Thanks for clarifying things further. I look forward to when you're able to go into even more detail.
I think it's very comforting that IdeaMan was able to clarify that the 2x reference was based on what you could see and not hardware components, and that this was apparently while the Wii U dev kit was rendering graphically intense scenes for both screens.
Fourth Storm
Member
If we get true 720p w/ 2x AA and with either current gen level of effects at 60fps or 30fps for things that noticeably exceed Xbox 360 level graphics, I'll be happy. I mean, the extra RAM, SPUs, and eDRAM, gotta go to something, right?
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
So if I'm reading Ideaman's 2nd post correct, his contact drew the conclusion because it was rendering the game on both screens...
bgassassin
Member
^ He has more than just two in this thread. He's been spamming up the place. He might catch Ace at this rate.
XD
And now that album cover finally makes sense - 40 years later.
XD
So the Wii U can't even run a current gen engine? LOLOL jk
I think it being closer to 2X power means it can run a game which on 360 is 720 p at 1080 p perhaps with better texturing due to the increase in ram, but not be able to double the frame rate. If you design a Wii U game to run at 720 p at 30 fps, then you could double on screen complexity.
As Tunalover said earlier, the Wii U is the Wii equivalent of the Xbox 360. Also, that avatar stares into my soul like Bgassassin.
I think it being closer to 2X power means it can run a game which on 360 is 720 p at 1080 p perhaps with better texturing due to the increase in ram, but not be able to double the frame rate. If you design a Wii U game to run at 720 p at 30 fps, then you could double on screen complexity.
As Tunalover said earlier, the Wii U is the Wii equivalent of the Xbox 360. Also, that avatar stares into my soul like Bgassassin.
Indeed! (toutafé!)
So, 2 screenS or... 3 screenS ^^ (you know what I mean/veux sous-entendre... ?).
IdeaMan, when you say "experienced on the screens" do you mean each screen is experienced as 2x 360 (And hence Wii U is overall more than 2x 360) or do you mean that the Wii U is rendering a bit above 360 level, but to two screens so is about 2x the 360?
BTW: Yes I know the subscreen is smaller and therefore would require less "grunt" than the main screen so it's not 1/2 power each screen, I'm just trying to get a reference point for what you said.
Even if it hasn't, wouldn't that still be impressive? Taking IdeaMan's word for it, then the Wii U is baseline capable of running 2 360-level scenes concurrently on 2 different screens with (assuming) next-to-no lag.
AceBandage
Banned
No, the screen will likely stay 480p.
Though it still has a fairly high DPI.
I believe there was an interview just posted where a developer said it was like a 60th of a second delay, which isn't really noticeable.
I think he is saying that while some Wii U parts/innards are 4-5X those of the X360, it only translates to a 2X performance in visuals.
Fourth Storm
Member
Hmmm, so a game with heavy graphical utilization of the subscreen would make a developer estimate about 2x the 360.
2x=1200p (Call of Duty: MW 2 res = 600p)
2x=720p + 480p
My math skills suck, but something like that?
2x=1200p (Call of Duty: MW 2 res = 600p)
2x=720p + 480p
My math skills suck, but something like that?
Isn't that kind of weak?
Oh before i go, the "experience" that i talk about includes all the screens. My contacts didn't reported the equivalent of two visually amazing HD games rendered on each screen. I wanted to precise that before leaving, and start unwillingly 10 pages of expectations of a Wii U THAT powerful. But still, it's capable enough to display things on screens that push my contacts to feel it's 2x Xbox360. I must go now, see you soon fellow gafers
Yes, 2x less weaker than if it was on par with the 360.
AceBandage
Banned
Keep in mind that this is (according to IdeaMan) while displaying a graphically intense game on both screens (the TV and the controller).
And that, also, a visual increase was never going to be huge, regardless. This is an evolutionary generation for graphics. Not a revolutionary one.
pieatorium
Member
I think it has been said a million times but the 2x and 5x shit is completely meaningless. I mean most 360 games are around 720p right so 2x the performance should be 1440p looooooooooool.
The X factors are usable when its explained properly or at least teased properly. The GPU is likely the thing on paper that is 4-5x capabilities of 360. Thats something that has been suggested since the beginning while the similar architecture of the CPU tri-Core etc has always been used to say too similar.
Ram based on hints is probably 3x the 360
bgassassin
Member
Depends on how you view it.
First there's a difference between 2x the visuals and 2x the performance. Earlier rumors pointed toward that latter. 2x the performance is on par with PS360 and really won't garner much, if any, difference in visuals. 2x the visuals would allow us to see a noticeable, but not dramatic difference between Wii U and PS360.
Fourth Storm
Member
So say a 720p image with a good amount of stuff going on and a 480p image of nothing crazy but still graphics and not just menus, hotkeys, etc...
Thats the thing I think thats gonna matter. What the second screen is upto. I mean if its just a menu or inventory etc I doubt it will impact much but if its like Ubisofts idea of UAV control with scouting via that screen etc of the battlefield I could see performance drains
That and for a game that renders basically the same thing on both screens. So, a game that uses the second screen as a map, or a HUD or a menu; it leaves more "power" to use.
I guess if using the whole "2x/5x thing" is the equivalent of 2x per screen.
XDIn some ways is like the 3DS, were developers can technically make more visually impressive games by not using 3D.
Or something like that I remember reading.
I Stalk Alone
Member
He could have just said two screens. the possibility could be three screens at once
compared to 360 = 1x @ 720p 30fps 2xMSAA with full shaders and textures
2x = visual fidelity on 1x 720p screen 60fps 4xmsaa + increased textures and shaders +
2x = visual fidelity on 2x 480p subscreens 60fps 4xmsaa + increased textures and shaders
Likely you will need a 4x-5x power boost in the components for that.
at 1080p things will be different.
compared to 360 = 1x @ 720p 30fps 2xMSAA with full shaders and textures
1x = visual fidelity on 1x 1080p screen 30fps 2xMSAA + increased textures and shaders +
1x = visual fidelity on 2x 480p subscreens 30fps 2xMSAA + increased textures and shaders
This is how the WiiU can be 1x 2x and also 5x at the same time if explained in various terms.
compared to 360 = 1x @ 720p 30fps 2xMSAA with full shaders and textures
2x = visual fidelity on 1x 720p screen 60fps 4xmsaa + increased textures and shaders +
2x = visual fidelity on 2x 480p subscreens 60fps 4xmsaa + increased textures and shaders
Likely you will need a 4x-5x power boost in the components for that.
at 1080p things will be different.
compared to 360 = 1x @ 720p 30fps 2xMSAA with full shaders and textures
1x = visual fidelity on 1x 1080p screen 30fps 2xMSAA + increased textures and shaders +
1x = visual fidelity on 2x 480p subscreens 30fps 2xMSAA + increased textures and shaders
This is how the WiiU can be 1x 2x and also 5x at the same time if explained in various terms.
Bombillazo
Member
These rumors are killing me! I would pay 400$ for a true next gen console with enough power to deliver the next batch of hardcore games! Nintendo shouldn't risk on the low power model like it did with Wii again, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, specially when you got the competition mounting lightning rods all around them...
AceBandage
Banned
So uh... If a dev chooses to render everything on the 854×480 screen it could be 7x as powerful because of the low resolution?
By the way, big thanks for the info IdeaMan. You're like a superhero that appears whenever things are looking grim in this thread!
If they designed the game to run completely on the controller, they could probably add a lot of AA and effects, yes.
Well, luckily they aren't going low power, and it shouldn't cost $400 either.
Just a little scared of them
And boy did I get crucified on here. To be clear I do not know all of the final specs. I only know some from a recent kit. So it "could" change... But I doubt by much. And based on that I think people on this board are going to be a little disappointed. I blame these crazy rumors from IGN with their whole 5x nonsense. That's all I'm gonna say.
I don't mean to keep driving home this point, but you are justifying what he says, when it doesn't line up. People inferred from what he was saying that it was older, but he definitely first claimed it was recent. Maybe later on he said it was older, but if so, his story has holes. if not, then what he's saying about recent kits is different than what other people are saying about recent kits.
So SOMEONE is probably not being truthful. Who that is, who knows. Personally, I'm a fanboy, so I believe in the optimistic leaks. Are they true? Probably not, but it makes the hype more fun.
Bombillazo
Member
:S how can it be both ways, powerful yet affordable?
- Status