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Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012
- Thread starter bgassassin
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Based on what? Come on.
I'm not saying it does have it, but discounting it just because we're talking Nintendo is stupid. Both Flipper and Xenos used shading tech that was not available at the time of their release. ATI/AMD has done this both times it designed a new console GPU before.
@brain_stew: Good to see the mods were merciful
AceBandage
Banned
You can't discount anything with Nintendo.
Including the use of GCN.
They're going for small and lower power consumption.
GCN will have been out for a while by the time they need to go into production.
Not saying it's 100%. Just saying it is a possibility.
Including the use of GCN.
They're going for small and lower power consumption.
GCN will have been out for a while by the time they need to go into production.
Not saying it's 100%. Just saying it is a possibility.
I don't think we should count out DX11-level tech. I mean, Evergreen isn't that much different from R700. It's entirely realistic that some of Evergreen's features were added to the design. In fact, it would be far more shocking if that weren't the case.
8-10 months isn't "a while" in cases like this.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
At this point I'd say it isn't.
Our in the knows have hinted at something around 2009 GPU standards. I doubt they'd say any different unless the kits are shooting for specs on that level.
ITT: People pretending GCN is some form of exotic magic. It's just another way to arrange the silicon, guys. It has been on AMD's drawing boards for years now, just like the Wii U GPU.
EDIT: @Xun: lol
The Wii U devkit is using a RV770LE. An obvious drop-in replacement for a GPU that is not ready. The suggestion that the GPU will be close to anything off-the-shelf AMD has made is ridiculous. The suggestion that it's close to off-the-shelf parts from two years ago even moreso. It is in no way unlikely that the Wii U will have a GPU with the same raw power as a RV770LE made using the latest design AMD has. To be honest, that should be exactly what Nintendo ordered.
EDIT: @Xun: lol
The Wii U devkit is using a RV770LE. An obvious drop-in replacement for a GPU that is not ready. The suggestion that the GPU will be close to anything off-the-shelf AMD has made is ridiculous. The suggestion that it's close to off-the-shelf parts from two years ago even moreso. It is in no way unlikely that the Wii U will have a GPU with the same raw power as a RV770LE made using the latest design AMD has. To be honest, that should be exactly what Nintendo ordered.
I edited my post before you posted.
I admittedly thought people were talking about GameCube tech, and given this thread it didn't surprise me.
brain_stew
Member
You're not going to get solid evidence as people aren't going to risk their jobs. You just have to learn to read between the lines and work out which posters to trust.
AceBandage
Banned
I'm not saying they'll be using a 7900 or something crazy.
Just that they could be going for a higher yield GPU in a 28NM shell. It would give them quite a bit of breathing room.
Don't be distracted by the fact the devkit has a RV770LE built in.
Nintendo doesn't go out for a contract of 50+ million GPUs for a gaming console to be served a watered down chip from 2009. The chip they will get will use the latest technology that is practically possible in the design and manufacturing process. Given that the Wii U will launch after GCN firmly puts it in that area. Compare to the Xbox 360, that launched a full year before unified shaders came to PCs, and still used a (rudimentary) version of that tech. It was NVIDIA who released the unified shaders first, and it would in fact take 18 months until ATI released their own unified shader GPU after the Xbox 360.
The idea that this is not the case, would be ridiculed if it were suggested in a Sony or Microsoft thread. However, Nintendo is somehow a flawed company that seems satisfied with 2009 tech, because it's 'safe' and 'proven'. This is not how the gaming industry works, and Nintendo knows that. The GPUs Nintendo put out in the N64, Cube and 3DS were all bleeding edge in their own ways, as that was the most competitive thing to do. Even if that were not the case, Nintendo will see that using last generation technology has hurt them with the Wii. It is not the 'safest' route to go by any means.
The fact that the RV770LE is absolutely unsuitable for a small console, even at 28nm, means there is a change coming. The final GPU will be only comparable to the RV770LE in terms of power and basic capabilities, but will be vastly different.
Refreshment.01
Member
Will Nintendo have 28nm GPUs in their fall console release when AMD and Nvidia are having serious problems migrating to that process?
This is very intriguing to me.
This is very intriguing to me.
AceBandage
Banned
Years of cooperative R&D with using a weaker GPU profile on a smaller chip set.
No chance in hell. We'll see 45nm and nothing smaller.
brain_stew
Member
There was nothing bleeding edge about the 3DS GPU. DMP had a ES 2.0 GPU available yet Nintendo choose an older design.
I'm doubtful of this too. We're probably getting 40nm or 32nm for proper production volume. 45 nm is out of the question, but the CPU is announced to be on 45nm, produced by IBM.
One thing you have to remember though is that AMD and NVIDIA are stuck with TSMC (Taiwanese chip maker), and they have to produce a lower volume of larger chips. In principle, it's possible that Nintendo's usual chip maker, NEC, has 28nm facilities up and running. Given that NEC doesn't have the same commitments as TSMC has, it could give Nintendo an exclusive production line to focus just on the Wii U GPU. Added costs per for the new process per GPU could also signicantly be reduced: AMD orders not more than several 100k of huge 400+mm^2 chips, while Nintendo will order 8+ million of (likely) 80-130 mm^2 chips just for launch. The production process could be much more optimized for the Wii U GPU in theory.
So yeah, it's possible. But I doubt it's going to happen, because it could leave Nintendo short on Wii U GPUs for launch.
Fair enough. For home consoles, it has always been a different story however.
Because it's far more powerful and efficient. DMP considers SMAPH-S the lower end solution, with the only benefit being that it's more standard-conform.
Nintendo would probably use NEC, not TSMC, so everyone else's issues are irrelevant. It's still not gonna happen, though. Honestly, I really with this console were coming out in late 2013 instead...
You mean 40nm. Or, at least I hope you do. :/
AceBandage
Banned
Does DC stand for Damage Control?
Seriously though, I like your optimism but Nintendo will almost certainly want to skimp on the innards of the console to offset the price of the controller.
Nintendo will also want to create a system that can compete and still get third party games...
They literally can't afford to be in the same situation as the Wii was. Because they will not hit it off big like the Wii did.
Thx for that. I also think we will get something much more modern than the RV770 architecture and because there won't be a 28nm shrink of the VLIW architecture I in fact see the possibility for use of GCN.
Refreshment.01
Member
Never mind, safest bet, no 28nm for this GPU.
And yea, i agree Nintendo should have cook up this console for a while longer. Im aware of their Wii situation but i don't think they will capaitalize enough by been a year early maybe.
Nintendo has the 3DS to worry about also. Polishing the concept and releasing with a more capable console at an later date seems better right now.
Also unveiling the console more than a year away from it's release was really stupid.
Does DC stand for Damage Control?
Seriously though, I like your optimism but Nintendo will almost certainly want to skimp on the innards of the console to offset the price of the controller.
And if that happens I won't be upset if it fails and gets Iwata fired.
To be honest, my gut feeling knows this will be hardly any different than this gen. Wii U will 80-120% above the current-gen depending on the scenario. Meanwhile, MS and Sony will have consoles that are 5x as powerful as it, and Wii U will only get the most basic ports done by c-teams, and will probably get most games several months late as well, while in other cases it'll get the same crappy, low-budget spin-offs on last-gen engines the Wii was stuck with, if it gets anything at all. I just know that there's a tiny chance that I'm wrong, and I'm clinging to it. If I'm right, however, I WANT to be crushing disappointed, so I'm keeping my hopes up.
They had no choice due to all of the leaks.
Can someone explain to me why GCN is such a big deal?I know it's new architecture and everyone is frothing over it to different extents, but what's the reason for it?
Also still sticking to this:
3.0GHz+ POWER7 based Tri/Quad Core CPU
1 - 1.5GB Main Memory (G/DDR3/5 is unknown)
32MB EDRAM "Mem1" Pool
640~800SPU AMD Graphics Card based on RV770(LE)
Anything further has been deemed false until deemed true. It's been my approach to guessing anything Nintendo this past generation and it's worked more times than it hasn't.
Also still sticking to this:
3.0GHz+ POWER7 based Tri/Quad Core CPU
1 - 1.5GB Main Memory (G/DDR3/5 is unknown)
32MB EDRAM "Mem1" Pool
640~800SPU AMD Graphics Card based on RV770(LE)
Anything further has been deemed false until deemed true. It's been my approach to guessing anything Nintendo this past generation and it's worked more times than it hasn't.
AceBandage
Banned
Smaller chip set means less power consumption and heat output.
So, I'll stick with:
3.0Ghz- POWER6 bases Tri Core CPU
768-1GB Main Memory (G/DDR3)
320~640SPU AMD Graphics based on RV730Pro/XT
Well they are skimping
Although they are making a console that is likely very powerful compared to the Xbox 360 and PS3, it won't be impressive in terms of raw power when it launches. It seems to be turning out cheap, but at least it's modern and reasonably fast within the constraints it has.Thunder Monkey
Banned
Nah man, it all depends on how many Gamecubes you feed it.
I'm just worried about the constant screams as Pikmin are devoured.
Refreshment.01
Member
This is a really interesting way to look at the events BurntPork. Why do you think some more or less vague leaks force their hand to do a half assed unveil?
The leaks did generate lots of speculation, i, aswell as others, pieced together most of the functionality of the device but its not like anyone was certain.
I always assumed they intended for it to be more of a revealing for the controller. Probably even without the sizzle reel, but once all the information was leaked in April, they thought had to present more.
I mean if not mistaken the Darksiders folks said they got the game running on the Wii U in like 5 weeks, which would be pretty close to the time table of the leak vs e3 presentation.
But just wild speculation.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I was.
Seemed necessary. Wii was on the outs, rumors were everywhere. Was a definite. At least to meself.
My apologies.
Refreshment.01
Member
I saw that video too, for what i can remember Vigil guys broke their asses puting together a demo for E3 but at the last minute Nintendo decided not to show it.
A very easy question to answer. Nintendo stock took a dive after that unveil, so they gave a shit alright as well as investors.
It's a good idea to reveal your next platform as close to release as possible since a portion of your base or potential one tends to lose interest in your current offering. Plus since the Wiiu concept seems not as hot as the Wii one they would have benefited massivly from more "real" and polished software, among some other things that's why a later unveil would have made lots of more sense.
Finally someone pushing our expectations up, not down
If you go by rumors:
AMD took the Radeon HD 4890, back in 2009, and clocked it up to 1GHz.
Since Nintendo is not sticking off-the-shelf products into their console, I say anything is possible.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Exactly.
But even IF your prediction on power is true (WiiU 1.8 to 2.2 times as powerful as 360 and PS4/Xbox-3 9 to 11 times 360) that still wouldn't be anywhere near the same hardware gap as last gen with Wii vs PS3/360 (360 is at least 10 times as powerful as Wii). Also as people have said here in the past Wii's old graphics architecture was the biggest reason it got so few of the big multi platform games, not power. A game designed for a GCN DX11 based GPU isn't going to be difficult to get running on a R700 DX10.1 based GPU (if WiiU's GPU is really based on that). I mean plenty of PC games will run on both, the same couldn't be said for games designed around DX9/10 and the DX7 level GPU in Wii.
My own prediction is that WiiU will be more like 3 times 360 and the next Sony/MS consoles will be 2-3 times as powerful as WiiU.
Putting aside the inanity of "X times as powerful", do you think WiiU will be playing PS3/360-caliber games that look a bit better and run a bit smoother, or do you think it will play Loop/PS4 games that look significantly worse?
First of all, we're not getting a 4890. Between yeilds (which is something that no amount of customization can fix) and power consumption, it can't happen. Not even Sony of Microsoft would aim for such a high clock. It's stupid, it's unreliable, it's hot, it's power hungry, it's not happening.
Second, factory overclock =/= stock clock. The stock 4890 is 850MHz. As a result, a 1GHz version would have MUCH lower yeilds. Unless the Wii U's size increases 3-4x and Nintendo has no problem launching with 10k units in each region, it's COMPLETELY impossible. Out of the window. There's no debate here. You might as well argue that it'll have a 7970.
Absolutely. Unless Nintendo or their partners announce anything themselves, we will never get credible information.
But it's when certain people go too far with rumours and speculation and formulate far-fetched predictions that we begin to get lost in explaining why they are wrong.
If we keep it focused and reasonable to start off with, then we may actually get closer in guessing the system's power.
To be honest, I'm not having really high expectations. GCN probably isn't more powerful than VLIW4 when it comes to gaming, and the 'power level' of the RV770LE is only good news if you compare it to the Xbox 360, but not so good when you compare it to what's possible in the next Xbox.Finally someone pushing our expectations up, not down
Just because it will be underpowered when compared to the competition, doesn't mean it has to be old hardware though. The reason I made that post is that I dislike how people think the Nintendo hardware designers as idiots, and the fact that even some educated people in here still think the final hardware will have a R700 or new technology that somehow ignores tesselators, VLIW4/GCN, or anything else that has come out in the last three years.
I think at first most of its games will look a bit better than 360/PS3 while some stand out titles will look noticeably better (higher res textures, better anti aliasing, better lighting better framerate). Once the new MS/Sony consoles come along it can then get downgraded versions of those systems games (similar difference between WiiU/PS4 version as I'm predicting for 360/WiiU).
Unless of course it does insanely well and we could than see a lot of WiiU up ports to the new MS/Sony consoles, but that's unlikely.
Unless of course it does insanely well and we could than see a lot of WiiU up ports to the new MS/Sony consoles, but that's unlikely.
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