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[Werhil]

Sure it makes everything less competitive, but then again, Nintendo has never been big on promoting online competition.

Really the current achievement systems don't have much of a competitive aspect built in.

Like for Xbox, I'm quite proud of my achievement for beating Ninja Gaiden 2 on Master Ninja mode. I expect its extremely rare (based on the Giant Bomb system), but in the end its only worth the same points as some random 'achievement' you might get for creating a character or whatever in another game. There's nothing actually built in to tell you how rare or difficult your achievements are, and even distinguishing rewards like gamer pictures or avatar items seem to be largely phased out. So yeah...its there but doesn't mean much. Glancing at someone's gamerscore reveals little else than a glorified time played clock.

If someone comes up with a system that actually means something, and can be easily conveyed, I'm all for it. I feel that is unlikely because of the spirit of accessibility that these companies are operating under now. A system that requires people to actually achieve things to progress could alienate the target audience. Now that I think about it, its mildly surprising that there is not yet an option to just buy achievements.

 

[Shabutaro]

I personally don't feel strongly about achievements or anything, but there's a surprising amount of emphasis put on them from both sides of the argument. I don't understand the hate for them. I don't think they ruin the game of anything, nor does the absence benefit the game in any way. Achievements serve either as fun challenges to people,much like any other in game challenge; or they simply serve as milestones to compare with friends.

 

[PhantomR]

I have to be honest here I don't think Nintendo does things half assed, they are the apple of video games, it always works out to be worthwhile

I think a lot of people are really underestimating Miiverse and what that will bring to the table.

 

[Medalion]

This thread is going on longer than I thought it would

Are achievements REALLY that big a deal that without it, it causes this much outrage?

 

[Baconsammy]

This thread is going on longer than I thought it would

Are achievements REALLY that big a deal that without it, it causes this much outrage?

And now you know why Nintendo's decision is idiotic.

It's probably a moot point anyway since when the next Xbox/Playstation are released the gulf between mutli-plats will be huge, and the decision for people that own multiple consoles will be easier. I was pretty much always getting the Wii U just for Nintendo's own games anyway.

 

[PixyJunket]

I am an achievement fan, but personally I am not moved by this news (I am fine with game specific achievement systems, ala Mega Man 9 and Xenobalde on Wii), but I do think it's something they're going to want to just cave in and implement. It's sort of an expected feature now. My phone's games have achievements, for crying out loud.

 

[rdrr gnr]

There's just a huge distinction between those who want achievements and those who dont. You can have the same level of excitement and the same level of competitiveness for the SAME game but one person feels it should be broadcasted globally(Nintendo Network worldwide for example) and the other person just feels satisfied for completing the same objective/achievement.

Nothing I disagree with. The spectrum is large, yes.

It's like nowhere near the same comparison in many ways. I can see some hardcore fans being VERY upset about this feature yet others just not giving a rat's ass. I don't see the public giving too much of a crap either. So it's 50% of the hardcore versus the other 50%/public.

Nope. Say most of the public could not make a distinction between HD and SD resolution? What about frame rates? Most people don't game on HD television. How about leaving out HDMI ports? The point I'm making is that no one can draw the line in a meaningful and objective manner. Ultimate public discretion does not always work (see: democracy); ultimate developer discretion does not work either (see: early PSN). It's about whether or not this feature is standard and expected. Say Nintendo announced OS-level achievements. Would some people decry that decision? Yes. The same amount defending them in this thread? No. It's rationalization at its worst.

Nintendo clearly made the choice in their best interests and in regards to THEIR core gamers.

I disagree with this entire sentiment.

 

[I'm an expert]

This thread is going on longer than I thought it would

Are achievements REALLY that big a deal that without it, it causes this much outrage?

Are they really that big a deal that with them, it causes people to GO CRAZY BECAUSE A SMALL POPUP CAME UP WHEN PLAYING SOLITAIRE. UGH! ACHIEVEMENTS!!

 

[vikingvessel]

This thread is going on longer than I thought it would

Are achievements REALLY that big a deal that without it, it causes this much outrage?

Why does a lengthy discussion equal outrage? Sure, some folks find snark just as irresistible as they did earlier in the thread, but to simply generalize outrage as the only motivation comes across as you having little interest beyond taking a predictable swipe at those with a more genuine interest.

 

[gamergirly]

Nope. Say most of the public could not make a distinction between HD and SD resolution? What about frame rates? Most people don't game on HD television. How about leaving out HDMI ports? The point I'm making is that no one can draw the line in a meaningful and objective manner. Ultimate public discretion does not always work (see: democracy); ultimate developer discretion does not work either (see: early PSN). It's about whether or not this feature is standard and expected. Say Nintendo announced OS-level achievements. Would some people decry that decision? Yes. The same amount defending them in this thread? No. It's rationalization at its worst.

I disagree with this entire sentiment.

I take a look at Wii's success, the type of games that Gaf cares about, and the type of success that Nintendo has had despite what has been said on Gaf into account when I make those statements. The majority of the argument for achievements, realistically, starts and ends with hardcore gamers. The general public won't be skipping the Wii U because it doesnt have system wide achievements(as yet as of currently). They'll be skipping it due to reasons like money. Just like they bought the Wii despite it being labeled "teh kiddy".

 

[TheGreatDivide]

Can you all please stop posting in this thread you're being very unfair to Nintendo by being critical. Only a stupid worthless nerd would care about system wide achievements, why don't you all go get some streetpasses or something.

 

[Chopper]

29 pages? Really?

I am not surprised.

Nor am I disappointed or happy.

...

 

[rdrr gnr]

I take a look at Wii's success, the type of games that Gaf cares about, and the type of success that Nintendo has had despite what has been said on Gaf into account when I make those statements. The majority of the argument for achievements, realistically, starts and ends with hardcore gamers. The general public won't be skipping the Wii U because it doesnt have system wide achievements(as yet as of currently). They'll be skipping it due to reasons like money. Just like they didn't buy the Wii because it was "teh kiddy".

I agree -- I don't think it's a make or break feature. But I just feel as though that is removed for the arguments for/against it. The lack of cross game chat didn't kill the PS3, but it's a fair point to say that it's a box that Sony cannot check.

Was this necessary?

He's being facetious.

 

[PhantomR]

Can you all please stop posting in this thread you're being very unfair to Nintendo by being critical. Only a stupid worthless nerd would care about system wide achievements, why don't you all go get some streetpasses or something.

Was this necessary?

 

[Conrad Link]

I love achievements so pretty disappointed they're still not doing it 'properly' but at the same time I hate what achievements do to my game playing style (obsessiveness to not 'miss' any and wondering every 5 seconds if this was an achievement, or that was an achievement I didn't do properly so having to look it up lol) so in that sense I'm happy I can just play 'normally'.

I'm kinda messed up.

My Activity Log obsession will continue though hopefully. I'm sure it will have one of those.

The day I can spy on my friends list activity log and see what they play and how much the better!

 

[Derrick01]

29 pages? Really?

I am not surprised.

Nor am I disappointed or happy.

...

To be fair it'd be a lot smaller if there wasn't so many fanboys defending such a horrible decision when it has 0 affect on them negatively or positively which in turn causes a lot of us having to explain things. The worst horror story I've heard is someone complain about a pop up taking them "out of the game". God only knows how they haven't murdered a poor UPS driver yet.

 

[BY2K]

Why a UPS driver?

Also, my reaction: Meh. Achievements are fine, but I don't care either way.

 

[lednerg]

Why a UPS driver?

They're fucking our wives.

Spoiler

south park

 

[Bgamer90]

Which is a bullshit statement. There will be plenty of people who will play multiplats on the Wii U. Just like the N64, gamecube, and the wii.

You shouldn't try to assume what millions of people around the world will do.

lol... so the Wii U will be the big console for popular online shooters and sports games?

Come on now. Lets be real.

Nothing against the Wii U since it will definitely have appeal due to it being the only place to play Nintendo games (obviously), but come on. The Xbox and Playstation brand has built up online communities for the popular 3rd party franchises for years. It isn't going to just quickly shift over to the Wii U... especially if the next Xbox/Playstation will be significantly more powerful.

The sports gaming community would never rely on an Nintendo console. Way too much online competition (people to play against) on Xbox/Playstation. The stigmatization of Nintendo consoles doesn't help either.

 

[Derrick01]

Why a UPS driver?

Probably the most common occurrence of someone coming to your house and knocking on your door, interrupting precious gaming immersion time. At least for me it is. <3 online shopping.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

i think what he's trying to say it's that those sites created a community. it doesn't matter that gamefaqs existed before, new communities were created because of achievements.

What I'm saying is that millions of people get more value out of their games by hunting for extra-curricular achievements. They love finding new and interesting strategies, optimising and finding the best ways to do something, and working together with others to "beat" a game. They also like to display and compare their progress to others. It is a way people enjoy their hobby and there is nothing wrong with that.

To the anti-achievement posters: You do not have the right to tell people how they should enjoy their games. If a guy spends 5 hours frustrating himself mastering the final combat challenge room, memorising the monster waves and making a strategy for attacks and healing, so he can win a picture of a bronze trophy and show off to his friends how he did it, then that's how he likes playing games and you can't say that his experience is invalid just because you think it isn't worthwhile.

Not including achievements in Wii U games is Nintendo's choice, but it is a gross oversight and a letdown for people who enjoy the achievement metagame. Why would trophy hunters choose Wii U for multiplatform titles when the PS3/360/Steam version has achievements, and the social network around them, already built in?

 

[Terrell]

This thread is going on longer than I thought it would

Are achievements REALLY that big a deal that without it, it causes this much outrage?

Lots of hyperbolic nonsense on both sides of the fence has kept it going. So if you happen to be sitting on said fence and see both sides, it's really mystifying and hypnotic to witness.

 

[StreetsAhead]

What I'm saying is that millions of people get more value out of their games by hunting for extra-curricular achievements. They love finding new and interesting strategies, optimising and finding the best ways to do something, and working together with others to "beat" a game.

All possible without achievements.

They also like to display and compare their progress to others. It is a way people enjoy their hobby and there is nothing wrong with that.

Miiverse Screenshots & Postings.

Not including achievements in Wii U games is Nintendo's choice, but it is a gross oversight and a letdown for people who enjoy the achievement metagame. Why would trophy hunters choose Wii U for multiplatform titles when the PS3/360/Steam version has achievements, and the social network around them, already built in?

Because maybe, however unlikely it is, Miiverse is better, even without a list of this you did. Or, that is what Nintendo is betting on.

 

[OryoN]

I guess this would suck for those who care. Sorry guys!

Fortunately, I couldn't care any less about achievements. People speaking about "challenging" themselves act as though these acheivements aren't trivial 98% of the time. It's even worst when these achievements are tied to multiplayer, because nothing restricts peole from being dishonest. I've witness gamers playing Left 4 Dead 2 - to give one example - in versus mode so they can unlock whatever achievements they can, as they kill each other by "staging" the right conditions. Not only did I find that disturbingly lame, but I'm sure these people go around bragging about these deceitfully accquired stats.

Just recently I was playing(LTTP fashion) a few games now that I finally got the chance. Dead Space 1 & 2, to name a couple. After beating Dead Space 1, I replayed it on impossible mode and finished it. I was chatting with an xbox live pal who was insisting I need to unlock x/y/z achievement. "STFU about acheivements already!" was the first thought that crossed my mind, but I respectfully shut him down. I replayed the entire game for the second time on a very tough difficulty because; knowing the game was a blast to play, I wanted to further challenge myself within that realm, I didn't give a damn about the silly "to-do list" that did nothing to enhance my experience.

Bring back the days when games actually rewarded you for your skills with good unlockables and content. GoldenEye 007 rewarded you with new guns/maps/"cheats"/missions, and the path to get them required skill. Today, things are upsided-down. Acheivements all but garbage, and you'd normally have to pay to unlock the kind of content past games would have given for "free". And guess what? "Core gamers" seem to be loving every minute of it!

I'm all for competition, stat comparing, and what's not but let's face it, the current achievement system is broken in many ways: mostly trivial, at times easy to cheat, virutally without rewards, and forces stats upon gamers whether they intentionally participate or not. There can be better ways to approach this. Maybe Nintendo sees MiiVerse offering the ability to compare stats in more fun ways, or spur community-made challenges. Leaving this achievement optional to developers is fine with me. Hopefully, not forcing this chronic e-cock measurement addiction upon gamers may breed more meaningful ways to challenge us, offer valuable rewards, and more ideal ways to acknowledge a gamer's skill.

[/rant]

 

[OldJadedGamer]

By this definition, the following features of this generation are "half-assed":

Sony's Trophy system
Xbox Avatars
XBL Cross-game party chat
Hulu integration
Playstation Plus

Among MANY others.

Yes to all those except cross game party chat. It was a feature since launch, they just upped the number of people that could be in the room from 2 to 8. It wasn't a new feature.

If you have ever messed around with trophies you'll see how obvious it is that they are half assed.

 

[FLAguy954]

I guess this would suck for those who care. Sorry guys!

Fortunately, I couldn't care any less about achievements. People speaking about "challenging" themselves act as though these acheivements aren't trivial 98% of the time. It's even worst when these achievements are tied to multiplayer, because nothing restricts peole from being dishonest. I've witness gamers playing Left 4 Dead 2 - to give one example - in versus mode so they can unlock whatever achievements they can, as they kill each other by "staging" the right conditions. Not only did I find that disturbingly lame, but I'm sure these people go around bragging about these deceitfully accquired stats.

Just recently I was playing(LTTP fashion) a few games now that I finally got the chance. Dead Space 1 & 2, to name a couple. After beating Dead Space 1, I replayed it on impossible mode and finished it. I was chatting with an xbox live pal who was insisting I need to unlock x/y/z achievement. "STFU about acheivements already!" was the first thought that crossed my mind, but I respectfully shut him down. I replayed the entire game for the second time on a very tough difficulty because; knowing the game was a blast to play, I wanted to further challenge myself within that realm, I didn't give a damn about the silly "to-do list" that did nothing to enhance my experience.

Bring back the days when games actually rewarded you for your skills with good unlockables and content. GoldenEye 007 rewarded you with new guns/maps/"cheats"/missions, and the path to get them required skill. Today, things are upsided-down. Acheivements all but garbage, and you'd normally have to pay to unlock the kind of content past games would have given for "free". And guess what? "Core gamers" seem to be loving every minute of it!

I'm all for competition, stat comparing, and what's not but let's face it, the current achievement system is broken in many ways: mostly trivial, at times easy to cheat, virutally without rewards, and forces stats upon gamers whether they intentionally participate or not. There can be better ways to approach this. Maybe Nintendo sees MiiVerse offering the ability to compare stats in more fun ways, or spur community-made challenges. Leaving this achievement optional to developers is fine with me. Hopefully, not forcing this chronic e-cock measurement addiction upon gamers may breed more meaningful ways to challenge us, offer valuable rewards, and more ideal ways to acknowledge a gamer's skill.

[/rant]

Beautiful post, couldn't of said it better myself, especially the bolded (second to last paragraph).

 

[TheGreatDivide]

I guess this would suck for those who care. Sorry guys!

Fortunately, I couldn't care any less about achievements. People speaking about "challenging" themselves act as though these acheivements aren't trivial 98% of the time. It's even worst when these achievements are tied to multiplayer, because nothing restricts peole from being dishonest. I've witness gamers playing Left 4 Dead 2 - to give one example - in versus mode so they can unlock whatever achievements they can, as they kill each other by "staging" the right conditions. Not only did I find that disturbingly lame, but I'm sure these people go around bragging about these deceitfully accquired stats.

Just recently I was playing(LTTP fashion) a few games now that I finally got the chance. Dead Space 1 & 2, to name a couple. After beating Dead Space 1, I replayed it on impossible mode and finished it. I was chatting with an xbox live pal who was insisting I need to unlock x/y/z achievement. "STFU about acheivements already!" was the first thought that crossed my mind, but I respectfully shut him down. I replayed the entire game for the second time on a very tough difficulty because; knowing the game was a blast to play, I wanted to further challenge myself within that realm, I didn't give a damn about the silly "to-do list" that did nothing to enhance my experience.

Bring back the days when games actually rewarded you for your skills with good unlockables and content. GoldenEye 007 rewarded you with new guns/maps/"cheats"/missions, and the path to get them required skill. Today, things are upsided-down. Acheivements all but garbage, and you'd normally have to pay to unlock the kind of content past games would have given for "free". And guess what? "Core gamers" seem to be loving every minute of it!

I'm all for competition, stat comparing, and what's not but let's face it, the current achievement system is broken in many ways: mostly trivial, at times easy to cheat, virutally without rewards, and forces stats upon gamers whether they intentionally participate or not. There can be better ways to approach this. Maybe Nintendo sees MiiVerse offering the ability to compare stats in more fun ways, or spur community-made challenges. Leaving this achievement optional to developers is fine with me. Hopefully, not forcing this chronic e-cock measurement addiction upon gamers may breed more meaningful ways to challenge us, offer valuable rewards, and more ideal ways to acknowledge a gamer's skill.

[/rant]

Such a nonsense argument. Nobody forces you to get achievements. There is nobody with a gun to your head saying the only way to play a game is to 1000/1000 it. The reason people like system wide achievements is the same reason people like universal usernames and OS based messaging; it simplifies the process. Most people don't care about gamerscore anymore. What they care about is having an easy way to compare achievements with their friends, having a reason to do additional things in a game or having a way to publicly show they achieved something in a game. Are most achievements hard to get? Obviously not. Are they detrimental to the experience? Not unless you're incredibly whiney. Is there any reason NOT to have system wife achievements? No. It's just another aspect of modern gaming that Nintendo is allowing themselves to appear behind the curve.

PS, bold your post more, it doesn't make you seem arrogant one bit.

 

[kevinski]

I don't absolutely need achievements in order to enjoy a game, but it's undeniable that achievements (like high scores) have become somewhat of a staple of social gaming. Given the fact that Wii U is supposed to be Nintendo's take on social gaming, I can't understand why Nintendo wouldn't strive to make things more uniform across the board.

 

[Reg]

bah, not a big deal

 

[deviljho]

Hardware should enabled features. Not dictate to content providers. Content providers have the freedom/responsibility to take advantage of whatever the hardware allows.

This shit isn't the soviet rail system.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

I think a lot of people are really underestimating Miiverse and what that will bring to the table.

.

 

[Ydahs]

Of all the negative WiiU news, this one fits snuggly into the "I couldn't care less" category.

Only read the first few pages, but the arguments on both sides were all over the place. Funniest argument? Nintendo should feel "embarrassed" because people actually like buying games that have easy achievements. lol.

 

[Derrick01]

Of all the negative WiiU news, this one fits snuggly into the "I couldn't care less" category.

Only read the first few pages, but the arguments on both sides were all over the place. Funniest argument? Nintendo should feel "embarrassed" because people actually like buying games that have easy achievements. lol.

Eh it was posted earlier in the thread but the terminator salvation devs said they owe about 50,000 sales just because of the easy achievement list.

 

[TheGreatDivide]

There's no valid argument that it's a good thing to be behind the curve in terms of your online network. How much you care will vary. I won't miss gamerscore because it's more a reflection of the number of games you've played than anything else. But do I like having an easily accessible list of games I've played, with a points total vaguely indicating how much time I spent on it and how close I was to 100%ing it? Yes. Does every single online network I use now have such a feature? Yes.

I've seen threads on GAF where people literally post their 3DS Activity Logs. Compared to that achievements are incredible.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Eh it was posted earlier in the thread but the terminator salvation devs said they owe about 50,000 sales just because of the easy achievement list.

Randy Pitchford (Borderlands) said the same:

http://www.destructoid.com/pitchford-easy-achievements-translate-to-sales-151315.phtml?a=4536

 

[IrishNinja]

any chance they could change their minds later like sony did this gen? it wasnt ideal, patching them in over but at least the miiverse infrastructure's already there.

I've seen threads on GAF where people literally post their 3DS Activity Logs. Compared to that achievements are incredible.

fair.

 

[Joni]

I have to be honest here I don't think Nintendo does things half assed, they are the apple of video games, it always works out to be worthwhile

And they also pretend the things they don't implement are not important at all while they're often much requested.

 

[Izick]

Eh, I think Achievements should be standard by now, but with that said, let me divert off onto a tangent...

Does anyone else feel like achievements or trophies have kind of screwed up your mind as a gamer? I mean of course I buy games because I want to play them, but I feel like a lot of the time I want the achievement points to go along with the experience, almost to the point where at times I forget about how the journey is really just as worthwhile as the reward or end, if not more so.

I think achievements condition you a bit into the mindset of wanting end-states to come sooner so you feel some accomplishment, and you get the badge and points to prove it. Not only that, but it kind of makes you play games in different ways than you normally would, which definitely isn't a bad thing, but a lot of the times it's tedious, boring, and kind of points out flaws in games at times. The worst are when a game rewards the player for dying a certain way. I mean it's an interesting concept, but isn't it silly to try and die different ways (which in turn hurt you in ways in the game, be it losing money, experience, time, etc.) just to see the notification pop?

I'm not trying to get up on a soapbox and scream that achievements are bad. These are just some thoughts I've had recently, wanted to share, and thought this was an appropriate thread to do so.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

any chance they could change their minds later like sony did this gen? it wasnt ideal, patching them in over but at least the miiverse infrastructure's already there. [...]

Unlikely, but possible. But what about game devs? Some didn't even care to put trophies in PS3 versions of their games, after Sony has introduced the trophy system. I wonder how much support those Wii U versions will get.

 

[IrishNinja]

Unlikely, but possible. But what about game devs? Some didn't even care to put trophies in PS3 versions of their games, after Sony has introduced the trophy system. I wonder how much support those Wii U versions will get.

yeah, i learned that this gen as well: expecting trophies/work to be done on a game no more $'s made on is naive, id not expect it realistically.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Bring back the days when games actually rewarded you for your skills with good unlockables and content. GoldenEye 007 rewarded you with new guns/maps/"cheats"/missions, and the path to get them required skill. Today, things are upsided-down. Acheivements all but garbage, and you'd normally have to pay to unlock the kind of content past games would have given for "free". And guess what? "Core gamers" seem to be loving every minute of it!

I never understood that. Ingame unlockables NEVER motivated me to do certain stuff in a game. Not even as a kid. What's the point? Getting some cheat items to finish the game more quickly?

I remember that in Dead Rising the achievements were tied to extra content. Although I did all the achievements I NEVER even used a single additional item you unlocked by doing the achievements.

 

[Feep]

Find out if there's a way on the internet to access your activity log without being on your Wii U. This is important.

Like seriously, PM me about it if you must.

There is no indication of this...anywhere. If it's planned, it doesn't exist yet.

 

[guek]

Hey feep, while you're here, could you let us know if press has gotten the miiverse update yet?

 

[jrDev]

So with Miiverse, can't developers just build a system that says, "hey, you got a 10 hit kill streak, wanna post it on Miiverse?" which of course will just take a pic of the "accomplishment" and then post it so the world can see?

Edit: Doesn't NSMBU do this anyway?

 

[guek]

So with Miiverse, can't developers just build a system that says, "hey, you got a 10 hit kill streak, wanna post it on Miiverse?" which of course will just take a pic of the "accomplishment" and then post it so the world can see?

I think this is exactly what we see in the NSMBU/Miiverse promo

 

[ChosenPredator]

can't wait to see how threads will be for Xbox 720/PS4 i can imagine it will engulf anything that the WIIU has had on this forum by 10x

Miss these days of new console releases :3

 

[jrDev]

I think this is exactly what we see in the NSMBU/Miiverse promo

Then this is much better!!

 

[StreetsAhead]

I think this is exactly what we see in the NSMBU/Miiverse promo

But it's still not an easy to read, all-in-one list. Which is what some people want.

can't wait to see how threads will be for Xbox 720/PS4 i can imagine it will engulf anything that the WIIU has had on this forum by 10x

Miss these days of new console releases :3

The two or three people who use CG images as 'proof' that the PSLoop is more powerful than Wii U will be amusing.

 

[rdrr gnr]

can't wait to see how threads will be for Xbox 720/PS4 i can imagine it will engulf anything that the WIIU has had on this forum by 10x

Miss these days of new console releases :3

I'm giddy.

 

[DigitalRicket]

This thread is going on longer than I thought it would

Are achievements REALLY that big a deal that without it, it causes this much outrage?

It all depends on your audience. On forums and comments on other sites, like Polygon for instance, all of them are calling 'good on ya' to Nintendo for dropping the achievements system.

I think it's just something we've all gotten accustomed to despite everyone hating them in the beginning since they didn't really add much to the games themselves, the acquiring of GS points all for what, gloating?

But from what it looks like there will be a way to share feats you've accomplished in the game through Miiverse, which is technically the same.

I go after certain achievements in games not to compare myself with others or to show off. Nah, I do it because I feel like I get to experience more of the game, plus I feel like the developers are challenging my skill. I don't need to get points for that.