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[mrklaw]

"selling it to anyone" is often not enough to be a "killer app"

I can tell just from the buzz of move that it's not even close to being a "killer app" and certainly nowhere near any of the Wii's many true killer apps.

What's the Qualification for a 'killer app' for a controller? It's not like you're buying a new console.

What would the killer app be for a second dual shock? Surely just a couple of good multilayer games and a friend? You don't need kill zone 3 to be two player only

 

[Marshmellow]

From the little experiance i've had, the M+ does the job and works pretty well so i was impressed upon 1st encounters with a motion control device.

I used the Move when it was on display in EB the other week and jumped to some conclusions pretty quickly

- Precision was good, after a few seconds of getting used to it, it handles nicely as was accurate
- Ping pong game worked well and was enjoyable.
- Archery was absolutely dissapointing. It acctually made me slightly angry.

Just to confirm, i do archery IRL. So here are the things that annoyed me
- Drop on the arrows isnt correct at all (distance - drop ratio)
- Shooting with a single controller? Im pretty sure i saw 2 controller shooting in the inital tech demo. this could be only because the EB had 1 controller setup/out at the time but can someone confirm? The action of using only a single controll was dissapointing, as i was looking forward to repeating close to real life actions to draw an arrow, knock it on the string, pull back and release.

Well thats my 1st impressions. The tech is clearly more advanced but compared to the sword and shield controller implamentation on something like zelda the archery game was not up to par.

 

[onipex]

What's the Qualification for a 'killer app' for a controller? It's not like you're buying a new console.

What would the killer app be for a second dual shock? Surely just a couple of good multilayer games and a friend? You don't need kill zone 3 to be two player only

I thought a killer app is something that is suppose to move hardware. It does not have to be a console. If SC is a killer app it could sell move and maybe the PS3. I think Move would have sold a decent amount to the PS3 install base off of potential alone. It is too soon to tell if SC is a killer app or not.

 

[poppabk]

What are you even basing that on?

sorry, DP~!

Moving the pointer in the Wii menu by purely lateral movements. Move the wiimote by a mm or two sideways with no rotation and the pointer moves ergo it can detect that lateral motion.

 

[left_senseless]

From the little experiance i've had, the M+ does the job and works pretty well so i was impressed upon 1st encounters with a motion control device.

I used the Move when it was on display in EB the other week and jumped to some conclusions pretty quickly

- Precision was good, after a few seconds of getting used to it, it handles nicely as was accurate
- Ping pong game worked well and was enjoyable.
- Archery was absolutely dissapointing. It acctually made me slightly angry.

Just to confirm, i do archery IRL. So here are the things that annoyed me
- Drop on the arrows isnt correct at all (distance - drop ratio)
- Shooting with a single controller? Im pretty sure i saw 2 controller shooting in the inital tech demo. this could be only because the EB had 1 controller setup/out at the time but can someone confirm? The action of using only a single controll was dissapointing, as i was looking forward to repeating close to real life actions to draw an arrow, knock it on the string, pull back and release.

Well thats my 1st impressions. The tech is clearly more advanced but compared to the sword and shield controller implamentation on something like zelda the archery game was not up to par.

archery can use one or two motion controllers, moves, but the game isn't the end all be all of simulators. in later difficulty settings it starts to drop assists and make things more realistic but I don't know if the game is attempting 100% simulation.

 

[dragonfart28]

Weren't there some vids of Wii play shooting range? We should have a gif-off and see which is faster.

 

[AndyMoogle]

From the little experiance i've had, the M+ does the job and works pretty well so i was impressed upon 1st encounters with a motion control device.

I used the Move when it was on display in EB the other week and jumped to some conclusions pretty quickly

- Precision was good, after a few seconds of getting used to it, it handles nicely as was accurate
- Ping pong game worked well and was enjoyable.
- Archery was absolutely dissapointing. It acctually made me slightly angry.

Just to confirm, i do archery IRL. So here are the things that annoyed me
-Drop on the arrows isnt correct at all (distance - drop ratio)
- Shooting with a single controller? Im pretty sure i saw 2 controller shooting in the inital tech demo. this could be only because the EB had 1 controller setup/out at the time but can someone confirm? The action of using only a single controll was dissapointing, as i was looking forward to repeating close to real life actions to draw an arrow, knock it on the string, pull back and release.

Well thats my 1st impressions. The tech is clearly more advanced but compared to the sword and shield controller implamentation on something like zelda the archery game was not up to par.

Don't tell me that the arrows don't drop at all over time, cause that would be horrendous. I hope it's at least as good as it is in Wii Sports Resort.

 

[poppabk]

Weren't there some vids of Wii play shooting range? We should have a gif-off and see which is faster.

The vids of Wii play are exceptional but then they were recorded by exceptional players. They do counter any argument about the wii pointer other than maybe pixel precision though.

 

[bryehn]

Just to confirm, i do archery IRL. So here are the things that annoyed me
- Drop on the arrows isnt correct at all (distance - drop ratio)
- Shooting with a single controller? Im pretty sure i saw 2 controller shooting in the inital tech demo. this could be only because the EB had 1 controller setup/out at the time but can someone confirm? The action of using only a single controll was dissapointing, as i was looking forward to repeating close to real life actions to draw an arrow, knock it on the string, pull back and release.

Well thats my 1st impressions. The tech is clearly more advanced but compared to the sword and shield controller implamentation on something like zelda the archery game was not up to par.

It's all there with two wands, but I found it a bit off, like I have to aim high. Could be because of my less than ideal play distance (6.5 feet).

 

[Marshmellow]

archery can use one or two motion controllers, moves, but the game isn't the end all be all of simulators. in later difficulty settings it starts to drop assists and make things more realistic but I don't know if the game is attempting 100% simulation.

Im was hoping for accurate simulation but not 100%.
Thats good that u can use both. My concern isnt the assist, im sure u can turn that off, but the fact that your aiming like 10cm above the bullseye to get on it at 10m range....lol

Don't tell me that the arrows don't drop at all over time, cause that would be horrendous. I hope it's at least as good as it is in Wii Sports Resort.

They do, but they drop far too much. Mainly just a personal realism complaint imo. See above

It's all there with two wands, but I found it a bit off, like I have to aim high. Could be because of my less than ideal play distance (6.5 feet).

Just how the game was designed, thats my exact problem with it, aiming rediculously high for something that i could throw the arrow at....

 

[left_senseless]

Im was hoping for accurate simulation but not 100%.
Thats good that u can use both. My concern isnt the assist, im sure u can turn that off, but the fact that your aiming like 10cm above the bullseye to get on it at 10m range....lol



They do, but they drop far too much. Mainly just a personal realism complaint imo. See above



Just how the game was designed, thats my exact problem with it, aiming rediculously high for something that i could throw the arrow at....

I believe the game shuts off assists automatically when you play higher difficulty settings.

it wasn't meant that the aiming of the game character was off, it was meant that the player felt as if aiming had to be done higher than what felt natural to that player but this was most likely due to an improper camera/distance setup. the feeling of shooting a bow and arrow feels decent for what it is if you have it set up correctly and calibrate the move properly. hope that helps.

 

[Marshmellow]

I believe the game shuts off assists automatically when you play higher difficulty settings.

it wasn't meant that the aiming of the game character was off, it was meant that the player felt as if aiming had to be done higher than what felt natural to that player but this was most likely due to an improper camera/distance setup. the feeling of shooting a bow and arrow feels decent for what it is if you have it set up correctly and calibrate the move properly. hope that helps.

Mm, i see what your saying and it could be possible that it was calibrated badly instore.
But i don't think that would affect the game's idea of arrow drop physics...

I might take another look today if they still have it running.

 

[cakefoo]

Moving the pointer in the Wii menu by purely lateral movements. Move the wiimote by a mm or two sideways with no rotation and the pointer moves ergo it can detect that lateral motion.

That's not a sign it's tracking lateral movement. Whether you move to the right laterally or turn to the right, to the Wiimote it just looks like the IR lights are moving left.

 

[poppabk]

That's not a sign it's tracking lateral movement. Whether you move to the right laterally or turn to the right, to the Wiimote it just looks like the IR lights are moving left.

Right. Because you need to know rotation to back calculate for position. Which is actually feasible with the motion+ for non-gaming related applications. Its not a limitation of the cameras resolution but a limitation of the location of the camera.
In the move case the rotation means nothing to the camera.

 

[cakefoo]

Right. Because you need to know rotation to back calculate for position. Which is actually feasible with the motion+ for non-gaming related applications. Its not a limitation of the cameras resolution but a limitation of the location of the camera.
In the move case the rotation means nothing to the camera.

That doesn't seem possible... The gyro in M+ is completely dependent on the sensor bar for calibration- the camera can't be dependent on the gyro for detecting position. I just tried in WSR- If I'm at a 45 degree angle from TV, but pointing at the TV, it thinks I'm pointing my sword straight ahead. That's because the sensor bar takes precedence in determining orientation.

If the Wiimote+ had a magnetometer in it, it would be able to keep orientation internally, and thus it could use the sensor bar for absolute position.

 

[poppabk]

That doesn't seem possible... The gyro in M+ is completely dependent on the sensor bar for calibration- the camera can't be dependent on the gyro for detecting position. I just tried in WSR- If I'm at a 45 degree angle from TV, but pointing at the TV, it thinks I'm pointing my sword straight ahead. That's because the sensor bar takes precedence in determining orientation.

If the Wiimote+ had a magnetometer in it, it would be able to keep orientation internally, and thus it could use the sensor bar for absolute position.

Once calibrated with a reference position ie remote flat and perfectly still then it would be fine.

 

[left_senseless]

Mm, i see what your saying and it could be possible that it was calibrated badly instore.
But i don't think that would affect the game's idea of arrow drop physics...

I might take another look today if they still have it running.

i guess i am not speaking very clearly. hahahaha. the drop physics will always bother you because they are not simulated properly. that is what i was referring to in an earlier response to you. the aiming should be better but is dependent upon the set up of the camera and the space you have to use the move in front of the camera. the ability to use two moves does help simulate the feel of using a bow and arrow but not as realistically as a person with your experience would expect... ie, drop physics, draw resistance (obviously) hahaha, arrow speed, power and depth of draw.... and so on.

this is a lightly simulated experience that the developers left underdeveloped. it still works and is still fun but if you are looking for that complete simulation of drawing a bow back and launching an arrow you will be disappointed.

 

[cakefoo]

Once calibrated with a reference position ie remote flat and perfectly still then it would be fine.

No it wouldn't. That calibrates the gravity for pitch and roll purposes, as they can be different every time you start up the console due to climate changes. The axis that M+ can't calibrate for internally is yaw, which is the axis that is also playing the primary role in your proposed sensor bar/yaw triangulation theory that doesn't work.

I would like you to share where you get your information, because I'm growing more and more suspicious that like in post #554 you're content with pulling things out of thin air.

 

[Jonsoncao]

I came here to ask is there any quantitative measurement of the precision difference?

 

[poppabk]

No it wouldn't. That calibrates the gravity for pitch and roll purposes, as they can be different every time you start up the console due to climate changes. The axis that M+ can't calibrate for internally is yaw, which is the axis that is also playing the primary role in your proposed sensor bar/yaw triangulation theory that doesn't work.

I would like you to share where you get your information, because I'm growing more and more suspicious that like in post #554 you're content with pulling things out of thin air.

You calibrate yaw based on pointing the remote directly at the TV, the same way it is calibrated in every motion+ game. I am getting my information from basic principles of science and mathematics, plus random internet searches by the way. I am certainly no expert but have a decent grasp of mathematics, engineering and trigonometry.
PS how is Move calibrating yaw?

 

[boiled goose]

Great to see that the move pointer seems pretty competent.

I am sure developers will get even better as they get more practice with the device.

It took devs about a year before they came up with a decent control scheme for FPS on wii.



Cakefoo, i definitely think the wii can detect z axis movement more accurately than 18 inches when pointing at the camera.
if that was the case the jenga games on boom blox would be impossible..

 

[Fafalada]

I love love love Table Tennis in SC, the precision is awesome, playing the silver level tournament and wow with some assits off it is even more impressive

Seconded.
There's way more control over the ball on silver and the game now really closely resembles how I'd play in real-world (with the benefit of shot-accuracy I couldn't really match). Ironically I found bronze harder because I kind of struggled against the assists not letting me hit angles and stuff I tried.

 

[redbarchetta]

I did a test on the Wii sensor bar calibration screen that shows IR lights as white circles. First of all, the higher the sensitivity setting, the more accurate it gets, but the more prone to IR confusion from foreign sources. That said, the highest sensitivity (5) was only able to detect a change in IR diameter after about 18 inches of movement on the Z-axis. At sensitivity setting 1 it took about 30 inche

I am totally confused, so please forgive me if I've misunderstood. Are you saying the Wii could only read depth in 18" increments? Because the Photo Channel's painting program proves this as patently false. The brush grows and shrinks as you push or pull the controller away from the TV, in which amounts to much, much less than 18"

 

[Jaruru]

the light ball on move wand is too big and too bright
it's very distracting, esp when I played RE5 in a dark environment

this problem got worse when you play games with projector, which demands a darker room

Wiimote has a huge advantage on this.

 

[expy]

the light ball on move wand is too big and too bright
it's very distracting, esp when I played RE5 in a dark environment

this problem got worse when you play games with projector, which demands a darker room

Wiimote has a huge advantage on this.

:lol

 

[Unknown One]

If Killzone 3 uses The Shoot's pointer it would give an incredible advantage to move users

I really hope all online game does this. The more people using it, the better unless they don't like it. The move players have every right to cream the DS3 players.

 

[cakefoo]

You calibrate yaw based on pointing the remote directly at the TV, the same way it is calibrated in every motion+ game.

You calibrate yaw by pointing it at the sensor bar, not the TV.

PS how is Move calibrating yaw?

Earth magnetic field sensor aka magnetometer.

Cakefoo, i definitely think the wii can detect z axis movement more accurately than 18 inches when pointing at the camera.
if that was the case the jenga games on boom blox would be impossible..

Yes, what you're referring to no doubt uses the change in distance between the two IR lights on the sensor bar to gauge distance, as it should change a considerable amount every inch or two of movement. But what jokeropia detailed is that it can gauge distance from a single light on the sensor bar- (each light is much much smaller in diameter than the space between the 2 lights and therefore the change in size as you get closer and further away would be very very very small) Then, from the gauging of the difference in size of the left and right IR lights, it can vaguely know the horizontal position, of which the accuracy I would think is very, very rough. The way it would work is, the diameter of each of the two IR sources is going to look the same size from straight on, but they'll be slightly different sizes if you're at an angle:

I am totally confused, so please forgive me if I've misunderstood. Are you saying the Wii could only read depth in 18" increments? Because the Photo Channel's painting program proves this as patently false. The brush grows and shrinks as you push or pull the controller away from the TV, in which amounts to much, much less than 18"

You did misunderstand We're talking about another depth measurement- one that is said to be able to detect distance just by one ir light based on the light getting larger in diameter the closer you get to it. The significance of measuring the size of the IR lights indivudually is that you're supposed to be able to essentially track the sensor bar in 3D to determine the angle of the sensor bar, and therefore determine the Wiimote's horizontal position relative to it.

But it's going to need to be able to have very, very fine depth perception if it wants to determine horizontal position, because for 27 inches of horizontal movement in this scenario, it only caused less than one third as much of a change on the Z-axis:

So in other words, if the Wiimote camera is only able to detect a diameter change of a single IR light if it's moved 5 inches or more toward or away, the horizontal precision is going to be less than a third as accurate, or about 17 inches.

As ugly as it is and as inaccurate as it most likely is, it's kind of admirable that they're even attempting this. But it seems by my math that it would be mostly pointless for anything- what good is it if it only knows horizontal position to the nearest 15 inches, not to mention you'd have to point the Wiimote at the sensor bar to do it, which couldn't be expected to be done in stride during an intense action game.

 

[PSGames]

I know this is a bit premature but IGN did a Kinect Vs. Move video from the perspective of real gamers:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xetnlp_kinect-playstation-move-real-gamers_videogames

Pretty interesting to hear the responses.

Edit: And nice little digg at the Wii by Chobot :lol

 

[poppabk]

You calibrate yaw by pointing it at the sensor bar, not the TV.

Which is where the sensor bar is located. You still have a reliable point of reference, which is why this works in WSR+.

Earth magnetic field sensor aka magnetometer.

But how does it calibrate where the TV is relative to the earths magnetic field?

 

[cakefoo]

Which is where the sensor bar is located. You still have a reliable point of reference, which is why this works in WSR+.

Yes. The problem with your theory in which the Wii would determine where on XYZ the remote is based on what absolute angle it's pointed at in the yaw axis is, once the Wiimote camera is pointed at the sensor bar, it thinks that's straight. The sensor bar serves to provide a central absolute yaw calibration for the gyro in M+. Therefore the gyros can't be relied on to provide an absolute angle, because they're reliant on the sensor bar for said angle. In your proposed theory they'd look at each other saying, "I don't know, you tell me."

But how does it calibrate where the TV is relative to the earths magnetic field?

At bootup you're asked to point the Move at the camera to set the calibration (and you're supposed to have the camera on top or below the TV and centered). Additionally, some games ask you to point to an additional 2-4 points on your TV screen to calibrate for TV position and size so they map more 1:1 in physical space.

 

[gofreak]

TTP's investigation actually gives some interesting insight into calibration.

Notably, Move's internal sensors for orientation don't actually need to be calibrated. Pointing the move at the TV/eye is apparently simply to lock onto the sphere and to determine the angle of the camera.

http://iwaggle.blogspot.com/2010/09/calibrating-hues-how-sony-playstation.html

 

[Graphics Horse]

All 3D games are (at least)double-buffered - making minimum input latency One-Frame, regardless if your input device is a controller or telekinesis. So there's no real way to go lower then that

And most games running on multiple cores (since PS2 era) will add 1-2 extra frames of latency, making 1-frame latency a very rare thing even with traditional controllers.

As far as shooting (gallery) games go, shouldn't it to be possible to position and draw the cursor immediately before the frame is displayed? You might still have to wait a few frames before your shot had an effect, but it would feel more responsive to aim.
Obviously this only works in a game without direct control over a 3D character/camera/spotlight, but I don't see why they wouldn't want to blit it to the screen on the vblank for best results.

Would be cool if Cakefoo could do a shot/response video like the movement one.

 

[poppabk]

Yes. The problem with your theory in which the Wii would determine where on XYZ the remote is based on what absolute angle it's pointed at in the yaw axis is, once the Wiimote camera is pointed at the sensor bar, it thinks that's straight. The sensor bar serves to provide a central absolute yaw calibration for the gyro in M+. Therefore the gyros can't be relied on to provide an absolute angle, because they're reliant on the sensor bar for said angle. In your proposed theory they'd look at each other saying, "I don't know, you tell me."

You would determine yaw angle by having the user stand in the center of the screen, place their pointer in the center of the screen and hold a button. Using what the remote sees you could create a reference point for rotation. You night have to have the user move the remote in specified ways to get the required accuracy, but it isn't impossible.

 

[Vinci]

You'd be a fool not to believe SC is really awesome. If you bought a wii for titles such as wii sports resort, well, there's no excuse. Same difference as in wiimote > motion+ transition. Pure joy. The future in your hands. No hyperbole, I'm known as a wii fan on this forum!

The problem is that I bought Minecraft months ago. And you see, nothing really interests me compared to that game anymore - at least not much that I've seen or heard about. And if I were to buy Move, it would not be for a sports game - I don't care how great it is. I didn't buy a Wii for WSR, I bought it for Zelda at launch.

 

[poppabk]

TTP's investigation actually gives some interesting insight into calibration.

Notably, Move's internal sensors for orientation don't actually need to be calibrated. Pointing the move at the TV/eye is apparently simply to lock onto the sphere and to determine the angle of the camera.

http://iwaggle.blogspot.com/2010/09/calibrating-hues-how-sony-playstation.html

That was interesting and very cool. I bet it is combining all the data streams and over time it is able to determine the only possible correct orientation that matches all the data. I wonder if this is where the magnetometer works its magic.

 

[DeadGzuz]

the light ball on move wand is too big and too bright
it's very distracting, esp when I played RE5 in a dark environment

this problem got worse when you play games with projector, which demands a darker room

Wiimote has a huge advantage on this.

But most Wii motes are white and thus bright and distracting. :lol

 

[Vinci]

But most Wii motes are white and thus bright and distracting. :lol

They're especially distracting when they fly through the air and hit my TV.

 

[rollingstart]

The problem is that I bought Minecraft months ago. And you see, nothing really interests me compared to that game anymore - at least not much that I've seen or heard about. And if I were to buy Move, it would not be for a sports game - I don't care how great it is. I didn't buy a Wii for WSR, I bought it for Zelda at launch.

I agree that there isn't much to be excited about for the move yet.

My general attitude towards most hardware is to get it so I don't regret it later. It is rarely a good decision seeing as how I often buy new hardware only to have them sit around for months (DS and PS3 were like this). Even just on the Wii, that was the case for motion plus and the wii fit (huge mistake to get wii fit thinking the hardware would be used for games). I was trying to break that habit with move, but the Kmart deal was reasonable enough to go for it now. Hell, I'd probably pick up Kinect if it was reasonably priced at launch.

If I had to think of a Move game that I wanted, it would be Sorcery, and that is a 2011 game. Can't think of anything else coming in 2010 for it. But I am sort of satisfied with table tennis alone. That and sword fighting were the reasons I kept playing WSR every few weeks. Move will replace that for now.

Oh, and the other reason I wanted move is for the shooters that would use it like Killzone 3. Granted, I don't know if I want Killzone 3 yet, but I do like FPS controls on the Wii for the most part.

 

[plank]

I've iterated this in another thread some time ago. But wasn't the sensor bar at the LoZ:SS E3 booth demo turned off? how did it calibrate then? Could it be the software?

 

[cakefoo]

I came here to ask is there any quantitative measurement of the precision difference?

Well there are several things the Move can do that the Wii can't under normal circumstances. For the things that they do have in common- the gyro and the accelerometer- all we know is that the Wii's can detect 1600 degrees of rotation per second vs Move's 2500.

The other advantages Move has are
While gyros are prone to losing their absolute known orientation over a short period of time (like a minute of heavy swinging), orientational calibration is maintained internally on the Move with a magnetometer, whereas Wii needs to be consciously pointed at the sensor bar.

While accelerometers are prone to losing their absolute known 3D position in space over a far shorter period of time than gyros (5 seconds of heavy swinging will do it), positional calibration is maintained on the Move many times per second (potentially the same rate as the camera- 60fps) and it can be done while the Move is at any angle except pointed straight back (as the remote handle blocks the orb). Wii, if it even can gauge position via sensor bar, would need to be consciously pointed at the sensor bar every few seconds. And even then it's questionable as to just how precise of a position it can even know from that IR calibration. A guess is a foot or two for Wii, based on math, and the official number for Move is within 1 millimeter. Positional accuracy is important for knowing, say, the height at which you're holding a shield, or the vertical and horizontal location of a punch. Many people thought that M+ would have been perfect for Punchout!, but the truth is it simply can't hold an accurate position in 3D space for more than a few seconds of high speed movements. The common misconception is that Wii Sports Resort is tracking in 3D space, even the most self-professed Wii "experts" are convinced of it. But all it's really doing is tracking orientation like so:

You would determine yaw angle by having the user stand in the center of the screen, place their pointer in the center of the screen and hold a button. Using what the remote sees you could create a reference point for rotation. You night have to have the user move the remote in specified ways to get the required accuracy, but it isn't impossible.

The Wiimote sees two IR lights of equal size. In jokeropia's post the patent is revealed to show that the Wiimote's horizontal position is dependent on the camera's ability to detect a change in diameter of the individual IR lights in the sensor bar, much like how the Move/PS Eye knows the distance of the sphere. But considering the Move's depth perception is something around 1-2cm, Wii's depth perception is going to be much worse because it has a lower-res camera (though a tighter fov but that still equates to more than a 2:1 advantage for Move) and the individual lights (actually clumps of 3 or 5 lights a couple centimeters wide) the Wiimote is tracking are much smaller in diameter compared to the Move sphere. ON TOP of that, the horizontal change in position is not 1:1 scaled with the distance change of where the IR lights appear to be- so it's going to take more like 3 times as much lateral horizontal movement to detect 1 unit of depth change. So it could quite possibly be only accurate on the horizontal axis to the nearest 1-3 feet, compared to Move's horizontal positional accuracy of 1mm.

 

[poppabk]

I've iterated this in another thread some time ago. But wasn't the sensor bar at the LoZ:SS E3 booth demo turned off? how did it calibrate then? Could it be the software?

Did it ask you to point the remote at the screen and then press a button? For rough motion+ calibration it doesn't actually need to see the screen, it just needs to know that it is pretty much pointing at it.

 

[Vinci]

The positioning of the Wii remote in that image is unfortunate.

 

[Lonely1]

Did it ask you to point the remote at the screen and then press a button? For rough motion+ calibration it doesn't actually need to see the screen, it just needs to know that it is pretty much pointing at it.

From my understanding, it worked with just rotations. You can actually use the wii-mote (with plus) as a PC mouse that way without a sensor bar, but it sucks (imo).

 

[Lonely1]

The Wiimote sees two IR lights of equal size. In jokeropia's post the patent is revealed to show that the Wiimote's horizontal position is dependent on the camera's ability to detect a change in diameter of the individual IR lights in the sensor bar, much like how the Move/PS Eye knows the distance of the sphere. But considering the Move's depth perception is something around 1-2cm, Wii's depth perception is going to be much worse because it has a lower-res camera (though a tighter fov but that still equates to more than a 2:1 advantage for Move) and the individual lights (actually clumps of 3 or 5 lights a couple centimeters wide) the Wiimote is tracking are much smaller in diameter compared to the Move sphere. ON TOP of that, the horizontal change in position is not 1:1 scaled with the distance change of where the IR lights appear to be- so it's going to take more like 3 times as much lateral horizontal movement to detect 1 unit of depth change. So it could quite possibly be only accurate on the horizontal axis to the nearest 1-3 feet, compared to Move's horizontal positional accuracy of 1mm.

In addition to that, the wiimote can detect light intensity. Remember that patents don't always tell the whole story, lost off stuff added latter, and lots of stuff removed.

 

[Kilrogg]

The problem is that I bought Minecraft months ago. And you see, nothing really interests me compared to that game anymore - at least not much that I've seen or heard about. And if I were to buy Move, it would not be for a sports game - I don't care how great it is. I didn't buy a Wii for WSR, I bought it for Zelda at launch.

Not to derail the thread, but I bought Minecraft too because of you. It's great (and as I stated several times, feels much more like Zelda than any Zelda game released in the last decade), but it really lacks some sort of end goal. Luckily I won't be able to play it for a whole year, so I expect it to be orders of magnitude better by then. It's only a 10€ alpha for now, so I can't complain.

 

[poppabk]

The Wiimote sees two IR lights of equal size. In jokeropia's post the patent is revealed to show that the Wiimote's horizontal position is dependent on the camera's ability to detect a change in diameter of the individual IR lights in the sensor bar, much like how the Move/PS Eye knows the distance of the sphere.

The patent comes from before motion+, and is referring to determining position without a reference point using pure trigonometry which would be inaccurate. If you ask the user to be in a specific position and hold the remote in a specific way then you don't need to worry about using trigonometry - you have the specific position. To get position when you move from that location you would then back calculate from the gyro rotation and IR data to get location - you know the rotation - so you know what the camera should see if there hadn't been any translation - so determining translation would be fairly straightforward.

 

[Vinci]

Not to derail the thread, but I bought Minecraft too because of you. It's great (and as I stated several times, feels much more like Zelda than any Zelda game released in the last decade), but it really lacks some sort of end goal. Luckily I won't be able to play it for a whole year, so I expect it to be orders of magnitude better by then. It's only a 10€ alpha for now, so I can't complain.

I think the fact that I've an interest in architecture makes Minecraft just addicting as all hell. I just truly enjoy taking materials and trying to come up with new ideas for buildings and structures. But yes, I'm looking forward to the future for the title. It's great already.

 

[cakefoo]

The patent comes from before motion+, and is referring to determining position without a reference point using pure trigonometry which would be inaccurate. If you ask the user to be in a specific position and hold the remote in a specific way then you don't need to worry about using trigonometry - you have the specific position. To get position when you move from that location you would then back calculate from the gyro rotation and IR data to get location - you know the rotation - so you know what the camera should see if there hadn't been any translation - so determining translation would be fairly straightforward.

I suppose if you have a manual calibration, one where you do it at the start and then the game is programmed to not rely on the sensor bar for M+ calibration, it would work for a limited time. Limitations are that you'd have to be pointed at the sensor bar, also accuracy would degrade as the gyros drift over time. It might work for a game like Boom Blox as Tumble gameplay is mostly slowly placing things into the screen, but definitely not swordfighting, table tennis- anything active that doesn't reference the sensor bar.

 

[Mudkips]

The positioning of the Wii remote in that image is unfortunate.

1Guy, 1 WM+ (no Wii condom!)

 

[poppabk]

I suppose if you have a manual calibration, one where you do it at the start and then the game is programmed to not rely on the sensor bar for M+ calibration, it would work for a limited time. Limitations are that you'd have to be pointed at the sensor bar, also accuracy would degrade as the gyros drift over time. It might work for a game like Boom Blox as Tumble gameplay is mostly slowly placing things into the screen, but definitely not swordfighting, table tennis- anything active that doesn't reference the sensor bar.

Right, for any game that requires the wiimote to be not pointing at the sensor it would fail, hence why you won't see the wiimote replicate the table tennis or swordfighting in SC. The external camera was genius and obvious for Sony, and I think it will be an essential component for the progression of motion controllers.