PopcornMegaphone
Banned
chubigans said:
haha so evil. Kinect threads are a guaranteed bonanza.
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Wiimote/Motion Plus vs. PlayStation Move Comparison Thread
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
haha so evil. Kinect threads are a guaranteed bonanza.
I'm browsing through the Wikipedia article entitled "Wii MotionPlus", which includes a list of about 28 games that support the peripheral (or will support it).
A great topic of discussion would be a shining example of either piece of hardware being implemented, but I have my doubts that the Wii Motion + technology will ever see its full potential realized.
I don't think I'm crazy here. 28 games.
A great topic of discussion would be a shining example of either piece of hardware being implemented, but I have my doubts that the Wii Motion + technology will ever see its full potential realized.
I don't think I'm crazy here. 28 games.
JordanLMiller
Member
Stumpokapow said:
Why would anyone do that? I mean after all, this thread is very well thought out and will only lead to constructive dialog!
Slightly more on topic: Why does the navigation controller not have some sort of motion tracking?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Boney said:
Presumably games will also play a part in the sense that much of what makes either motion control device good or not is based on software implementation. I do think that comparing the pointer implementation in MP3/The Conduit/MoHH2/CoDMWR versus The Shoot / MAG / etc makes sense.
Obviously control mappings also matter and the Move's button layout versus the Wiimote's button layout, and the Nunchuk versus the half-DS2/Navigation Controller would be something to discuss.
But this would not be a good thread to post a review of Eyepet or NPD sales.
I NEED SCISSORS said:
I don't really have any idea why Ami created the thread (I've been reading the move thread and any "comparing" going on in there is quite benign in my opinion--things like people discussing cursor versus no cursor for light gun games, which naturally invites comparison to how the two dozen light gun shooters the Wii has got in the last few years handle things), but given that the thread exists, people are going to either reply productively or not at all.
The gyros in the Move are quite more sensitive. They're a generation past the Wiimote+ ones (does anyone have the tracking numbers? They've been posted on gaf several times). The Move gyros sense everything from minute movement to extreme.Lonely1 said:
The move also comes with a three-axis electronic compass.
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/PlayStation-Move-Teardown/3594/1
I purchased a Wii day one in order to experience motion controls. I commend Nintendo for taking the initiative in radically changing the way we interface with consoles. They've not only proved that Motion control technology works (and works well), but they've also proven that it is very accessible and consumers are looking for experiences that branch out from the norm and bring families/friends together.
Unfortunately the Wii didn't live up to my own expectations and wasn't a device that could truly represent 1:1 motion in 3D space. As such, most of the motion control titles relied heavily on gestures, and even in Wii Sports Resort with M+, the games weren't deep enough and required constant mid-game recalibration. Knowing that you could simply flick your wrist without any real precision required was hugely disappointing, and ultimately made me lose interest fairly quickly.
Move is substantially better thanks to the added precision of the move hardware and the way it can track 1:1 motion in 3D space with very low latency. I can now play games like Table Tennis and actually have to spend hours upon hours mastering the controls -- I'm just now getting to the Gold Cup on Table Tennis and I've invested over 10 hours, and I still feel that I have more to learn with respect to the controls. Very small movements make all the difference in the world, and when the training wheels are off on harder difficulty settings, matches are ferociously intense and engaging. It's an absolute dream to play. I haven't been this engaged in a sports title since the Dreamcast days with Virtua Tennis.
I don't really even understand what's up for debate; the difference is instantly noticeable coming from WSR: Table Tennis to Sports Champions Table Tennis.
Hardware naturally gets better over time. Motion controls are an interface that can be executed in many different ways, and we are just now seeing other companies besides Nintendo explore the medium more thoroughly. Congrats are in order for Nintendo, because without them, we would likely not be seeing the Playstation Move which is an evolution of motion control gaming, but a very, very large one over its rival predecessor.
Unfortunately the Wii didn't live up to my own expectations and wasn't a device that could truly represent 1:1 motion in 3D space. As such, most of the motion control titles relied heavily on gestures, and even in Wii Sports Resort with M+, the games weren't deep enough and required constant mid-game recalibration. Knowing that you could simply flick your wrist without any real precision required was hugely disappointing, and ultimately made me lose interest fairly quickly.
Move is substantially better thanks to the added precision of the move hardware and the way it can track 1:1 motion in 3D space with very low latency. I can now play games like Table Tennis and actually have to spend hours upon hours mastering the controls -- I'm just now getting to the Gold Cup on Table Tennis and I've invested over 10 hours, and I still feel that I have more to learn with respect to the controls. Very small movements make all the difference in the world, and when the training wheels are off on harder difficulty settings, matches are ferociously intense and engaging. It's an absolute dream to play. I haven't been this engaged in a sports title since the Dreamcast days with Virtua Tennis.
I don't really even understand what's up for debate; the difference is instantly noticeable coming from WSR: Table Tennis to Sports Champions Table Tennis.
Hardware naturally gets better over time. Motion controls are an interface that can be executed in many different ways, and we are just now seeing other companies besides Nintendo explore the medium more thoroughly. Congrats are in order for Nintendo, because without them, we would likely not be seeing the Playstation Move which is an evolution of motion control gaming, but a very, very large one over its rival predecessor.
Man said:
The thing is, thanks to it design, the Wii doesn't need gyros/accelerometers for pointing. Only the camera and the sensor bar (well, it use the accels to know if its upside down with gravity). Is a very elegant solution that works great imo. So, its up to Move to catch up with their accel+gyros+compas.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Have a Wii since day 1, played a shitload of games on it.
Bought Move. No games, so just trying out demos and such.
For me, most of it has been indistinguishable.
Using Tumble to compare the 3D space calculation, it feels fairly similar to how the MotionPlus is tracked inside Wii Sport Resort (something like Frisbee). It seems to be slightly more accurate, but not by much.
The Shoot, when calibrated correctly, works pretty much identical to how most of the Sega light gun shooters worked on the Wii.
For now, until we see better games that make better uses, it's hard to say if the Move is that much further ahead (outside of the camera augmented functions). So I'd say the jury is still out, probably for a while.
What really gets on my nerves, however is that every Move game needs to to recalibrate it, EVERY, TIME, YOU, START.
Bought Move. No games, so just trying out demos and such.
For me, most of it has been indistinguishable.
Using Tumble to compare the 3D space calculation, it feels fairly similar to how the MotionPlus is tracked inside Wii Sport Resort (something like Frisbee). It seems to be slightly more accurate, but not by much.
The Shoot, when calibrated correctly, works pretty much identical to how most of the Sega light gun shooters worked on the Wii.
For now, until we see better games that make better uses, it's hard to say if the Move is that much further ahead (outside of the camera augmented functions). So I'd say the jury is still out, probably for a while.
What really gets on my nerves, however is that every Move game needs to to recalibrate it, EVERY, TIME, YOU, START.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
JordanLMiller said:
I quoted Amir0x in my wall of unconstructive quotes, so obviously I am aware as are you that the setup of the thread may have been less productive than it could have been. That being said, no one in any thread has a license to counter troll because they think someone else is trolling.
Jax said:
Yeah, he has the advantage of replying before people were warned to shape up or ship out. You don't.
ryan-ts said:
right.
That's, uh, not really accurate at all. See vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqi2eaY_gZ0AlphaTwo00 said:
I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
Stumpokapow said:
Yeah, hopefully. I just thought the intention was to keep all the idiocy in here so that it didn't spill into other threads (like the purpose of the GT5 versus Forza 3 thread). But now that this thread has a specific aim and is to be kept civil, I wonder if it will just spill out anyway..
But this is now off-topic, so with that i'm out.
ryan-ts said:
That is a sad example, of course real life shit is better than a game. I would rather go out and play football instead of playing Pro Evo, but thats not what it's about. The Move is an excellent way to play games by imitating the motion. Yes I agree the Move has not got any killer apps, just decent sports games and tacked in pointer controls for shooters. But the tech is there and it is only a matter of time until a good game gets announced, that uses Move controls. For me, Virtua Tennis 4 and SOCOM4 are good enough.
AlphaTwo00
Member
From a tech standpoint of precision, yes. But during my play, there were still plenty of false positives of swings: too often when I tried to switch hand, the controller assumed it was a full on swing and hit the ball in an awkward angle, which is similar to what the WM+ did in WSR Table Tennis.Redbeard said:
This might have moved off strictly tech side and more onto the actual game implementation of motion itself, so I'll leave it at that.
Stumpokapow said:
I have no intention of participating in this thread, only moderating it. I'm not doing the comparing, on other words, so my posts have no value whatsoever ITT. That's why I replied to PataHikari, because he acted like the thread was doomed because of the comment. They were intentionally not constructive, much the same way, for example, bish's silly opening posts are in the Forza 3 vs. GT5 thread or the Dead Rising 2 thread are relatively worthless.
The catalyst for this thread's creation was the Sport's Champion thread, where the last 4 pages were basically gloating by MOVE fans, and shitting on Move by Wii fans.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Eh.
In terms of pure engineering solutions, they're about on par (i.e. they're both more than adequate for the application), though the Move is using better, more expensive tech.
Wii pointer has a better setup when it comes to pointing, mimicking a 3D mouse, but there are ways around not having the feature, so that's a wash.
I suppose Move allows for finer control for position in 3D space, which'd be good for physics puzzles and the like, but I've always found those applications to be somewhat wanky - people like them and developers make them seemingly because they get off on the fact that the physics mimic the real world in some way, rather than because the physics necessarily make the application fun to play. Of course, that comes down to personal preference and I seem to be highly selective when it comes to what I like, so meh. Other than Boom Blox (which doesn't depend on precise position anyway), I haven't seen a lot of physics puzzles on the Wii to begin with, though, so I have no point of comparison.
Finally, both have the problem of a lack of force feedback when it comes to interacting with in-game objects. That is to say that 1:1 controls are impossible because your controller won't make your hand fly back when your sword bounces off a shield and because the game will always have issues with scale (if you have non-standard body proportions, God help you with 1:1 controls). This has always been a problem for the current setup and doesn't look to be solved any time soon. Until the problem is solved, the 1:1 controls that GAF seemingly lusts after will never actually be feasible or anything other than frustrating.
In short, motion controls are clearly the way of the future and both the Motion+ and the Move are more than adequate for today's gaming applications. Neither actually solves any problem the other encounters, however, so they're not meaningfully different. They have plenty of time to fix that next gen and in the future, however.
In terms of pure engineering solutions, they're about on par (i.e. they're both more than adequate for the application), though the Move is using better, more expensive tech.
Wii pointer has a better setup when it comes to pointing, mimicking a 3D mouse, but there are ways around not having the feature, so that's a wash.
I suppose Move allows for finer control for position in 3D space, which'd be good for physics puzzles and the like, but I've always found those applications to be somewhat wanky - people like them and developers make them seemingly because they get off on the fact that the physics mimic the real world in some way, rather than because the physics necessarily make the application fun to play. Of course, that comes down to personal preference and I seem to be highly selective when it comes to what I like, so meh. Other than Boom Blox (which doesn't depend on precise position anyway), I haven't seen a lot of physics puzzles on the Wii to begin with, though, so I have no point of comparison.
Finally, both have the problem of a lack of force feedback when it comes to interacting with in-game objects. That is to say that 1:1 controls are impossible because your controller won't make your hand fly back when your sword bounces off a shield and because the game will always have issues with scale (if you have non-standard body proportions, God help you with 1:1 controls). This has always been a problem for the current setup and doesn't look to be solved any time soon. Until the problem is solved, the 1:1 controls that GAF seemingly lusts after will never actually be feasible or anything other than frustrating.
In short, motion controls are clearly the way of the future and both the Motion+ and the Move are more than adequate for today's gaming applications. Neither actually solves any problem the other encounters, however, so they're not meaningfully different. They have plenty of time to fix that next gen and in the future, however.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
AlphaTwo00 said:
Feel free to discuss game implementation. Half the games on Wii have cursor jitters and half don't, and discussing both sides of that is important when analyzing what the Wii can potentially do and what it does in practice.
It'll also be true for the Move that there are games with more responsive controls and games with less responsive controls. SC Table Tennis seems to be reviewing much more universally well than Tumble (I haven't played either), and the distinctions in how the games handle things are important.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Look, I was just going off on what I've played and tried out. I'd try the hand twirling motion on one, and it seems to do it 1:1, then I tried it on the other, and I'd get similar result. :lolchubigans said:
As was stated, we're not talking about game implementation, which I am assuming that the parts in WSR that lock the motion up past a certain angle is by design choice "to not break the player model"
I guess what I'm curious about is if there are any tech advantages that the Motion Plus has over Move. It seems to be the consensus that Move is superior, which is no surprise since it came out 4 years after the 'mote and has more advanced nuts and bolts, but shirley it isn't a flawless victory.
Even though I own it, I feel like I've hardly used M+ since Sports Resort and Red Steel 2 are the only games that use it that I'm interested in.
This is why we can't have nice threads.
Even though I own it, I feel like I've hardly used M+ since Sports Resort and Red Steel 2 are the only games that use it that I'm interested in.
This is why we can't have nice threads.
Proof of accuracy.Lonely1 said:
I don't actually doubt that the Wii in a pointer comparison could do just as precise pixel pointing as the Move (probably some PC modification out there) but it does not offer as fine pixel aiming for every day gaming as you will with Move due to the system behind it. But that is just super micro nitpicking in any case and not relevant in day to day gaming due to big enemy hitboxes..etc.
In an actual practical test I can say that Mag Beta 1.04 offers the finest FPS pointer aiming I've ever tried (again: comparing to highly tweaked and tuned Metroid 3 & Conduit).
I would say Wiimote+ aiming == Move.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Isn't there a point when things are "good enough?"
I mean, will a player really notice whether something is 98% accurate or 100% accurate towards the players motions?
I mean, technically speaking, the move is "better" than motion plus, but from everything I've seen and read, it essentially does exactly the same thing as motion plus. Having using motion plus a lot, I haven't seen much if any that I went "well darn I wish there was a product that was more accurate"
I guess it boils down to will the consumer notice a difference between the move and the wii remote. Sony certainly hasn't shown me anything that makes it any different.
I mean, will a player really notice whether something is 98% accurate or 100% accurate towards the players motions?
I mean, technically speaking, the move is "better" than motion plus, but from everything I've seen and read, it essentially does exactly the same thing as motion plus. Having using motion plus a lot, I haven't seen much if any that I went "well darn I wish there was a product that was more accurate"
I guess it boils down to will the consumer notice a difference between the move and the wii remote. Sony certainly hasn't shown me anything that makes it any different.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Chrange said:
Presumably as we get closer to release and threads start moving from people hooting and hollering like the audience to "Married with Children" towards actually discussing release games and experiences, we'll be working on weeding out drive-by trolls and the like that prevent productive discussion. As always, if anyone sees a specific post that is wrecking a thread, send a heads up to a moderator who is online and they can take a look at it.
Chrange said:
It's impossible to compare Kinect to anything else out there. Would we have a PlayStation Eye vs. Kinect thread? Would that even be a comparison really?
Kinect is being compared against its own self in those topics, seems like, and the disgruntled fans seem to be pointing out the legitimate issues Kinect games have in those topics. Not sure how any fanboys are fighting over Kinect so there's nothing to clean up atm.
we'll see what happens when the launch gets closer
I didn't mean to make it seem like I was calling you out AlphaTwo00, my apologies. 
Well even if, say, the Move was exactly the same as M+, you would still have a motion controller coupled with next-gen HD graphics and features. That alone makes the Move seem like an upgrade from the Wii.balladofwindfishes said:
chubigans said:I didn't mean to make it seem like I was calling you out AlphaTwo00, my apologies.
Well even if, say, the Move was exactly the same as M+, you would still have a system with HD next-gen graphics and features. That alone makes the Move in itself seem like an upgrade from the Wii.
I just dont understand why both Wii Sports compilations and Sports Champion don't have functional online modes. it's 2010! But I digress. Time to go back to Deadwood.
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Position tracking is kind of important for any general, continuous motion tracking. Not simply for wanky physics puzzles. You cannot do general motion tracking or motion capture for any application without position and orientation...neither is more important than the other for a general track. The difference shows through in more than just tumble, but pretty mcuh any of the Move games doing motion tracking (as opposed to the pointer-y games). I'm sure many will relate the difference it makes in table tennis for example.
(And funnily enough, good position tracking opens up a couple of possible avenues to try and get around some of the issues caused by the absence of force feedback. It's a very complex issue, but if you have a mapping between position in the virtual space in front of the camera and the space in the game, you can at least identify where in each space is 'valid' for the controller to be. Which is at least a start for even attempting to deal with some issues of the controller getting into impossible positions due to lack of force feedback in more direct 1:1 scenarios.)
balladofwindfishes said:
It makes a big difference to be able to do general uninterrupted motion tracking. Move is really the first controller to afford that. I think you'd have to be pretty undiscerning not to notice the difference as manifested in a number of Move games.
Man said:
Well my point is: I use a logitech gaming Mouse for both, Work and gaming. The accuracy of my mouse on default settings compared to a regular laser mouse might be indistinguishable for someone used to lower DPI mouses, but regular mouses are now too slow for me, and most people I know found my mouse settings to be unusable. Now, I have logged several weeks into MoH:H2, CoD:WaW and MW:R for Wii (TCOn MP was garbage). Is it unfair for me to think that I might be more used to higher sensitivity settings on my pointer fps and wanting some feedback?
And, as you said. Is all about Hit boxes, so i don't thing higher resolutions has much to do with it.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yeah but you are talking about things being more precise due to pixel count which makes it kinda hard to understand if you understand what people are interested in. My concerns for the move pointer are:Man said:
a) if I sit in the same position does where I point the remote for the top corner of the screen always remain exactly the same day to day
b) can you point from one corner to the other instantly
balladofwindfishes
Member
gofreak said:
If it's there, Sony hasn't made it obvious that it's any better than a Wii remote. I really haven't seen much game wise that couldn't be "good enough" on the Wii and still be essentially the same experience.
Amir0x said:
That is the main reason I still haven't bought Sports Champion even though I enjoyed the Demo. I find it boring playing the game on my own, and playing local multi-player is fun, but it gets boring playing the same opponent over again. If a Sports mini game collection with online came out on Move, it would be my most played game along with Street Fighter
El Pescado
Member
I feel like the Move and the WiiMotion+ are pretty much in the same ballpark right now. Of course the Move has an easier time with the 3D tracking since it's a Camera on your TV tracking the LED in your hand as opposed to Nintendo's way of the Camera in your hand with the LED on your TV, but there isn't much Nintendo can do about that now, is there...
I had a hell of a time setting up my Move to work properly and I still haven't gotten it to a point where I'd say "This is so much better than the Wii" and I'm not sure if it's the setup or my living room or everyone else playing with the Move never really giving the Wii a fair shake.
I did not like Sports Champion Table Tennis at all compared to Wii Sports Resort Table Tennis which I've played hours upon hours of. It's all up to personal taste.
I had a hell of a time setting up my Move to work properly and I still haven't gotten it to a point where I'd say "This is so much better than the Wii" and I'm not sure if it's the setup or my living room or everyone else playing with the Move never really giving the Wii a fair shake.
KAL2006 said:
I did not like Sports Champion Table Tennis at all compared to Wii Sports Resort Table Tennis which I've played hours upon hours of. It's all up to personal taste.
AlphaTwo00
Member
No problems. :lolchubigans said:I didn't mean to make it seem like I was calling you out AlphaTwo00, my apologies.
Well even if, say, the Move was exactly the same as M+, you would still have a motion controller coupled with next-gen HD graphics and features. That alone makes the Move seem like an upgrade from the Wii.
Yeah. Once the games do start rolling out, yes, it will be an upgrade.
Personally, I look at a bunch of the demos I'm seeing now (maybe it's a demo thing), but a lot of the devs and the implementation on the UI reminds me of first gen Wii stuff. The UI just doesn't give you enough info on what you need to do: In the Shoot, if you want me to point the controller down, show me with at least a 2 frame animated clip. In Kung Fu Rider, gesturing push for speed and thrust are practically the same, with almost overlapping disastrous result.
Hopefully they can get past that gap soon.
And also, I somehow feel that this discussion will not be complete until The Fight arrives.
Red Steel 2, no need to constant recalibration.gofreak said:
I know that Move is much better when full position tracking is in play (1-1 sports games, the Gladiator/Fighting game). But when the games needs a a fixed position for an on screen character, AKA everything that lets you explore the environment (FPS, TPS, Actions games, everything not on rails), the lack of absolute position tracking is WM+ is going to be a lot less important. And Like RedSteel 2 shows, the WM+ is capable of keeping track of fairly complex movements without constant calibration given those restrictions. So, I don't expect that the Wizard game (what's its title?) will control much better than Zelda: SwS.