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[pigeon]

It means they will go to school as required. Not practice a law other than the one the country imposes. They will integrate into neighborhoods and not cluster together staying homogenous, not learning the language, and expecting everyone to follow their way even though they are guests.

Well, I mean, they're not guests. They're citizens. That's kind of a prerequisite for integrating them. If you view them as outsiders who are in Germany on sufferance, you should probably assume that they will never integrate to your standards. What would be the point? Integration might change their perspective, but it won't change yours.

And your other points are pretty silly as well. Are they going to cluster together? Yeah, probably. They're Levantine Muslims in a predominantly Teutonic Christian country. And, I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but Germans don't exactly have a reputation for sterling acceptance of others (not to mention this entire thread).

When minority groups fear abuse and disenfranchisement, they form ethnic enclaves, speak in their own language, and build communities where they can support each other without depending on the existing power structures -- because they can't trust them. So you should assume that they will do all of those things. Mainly for the same reasons that you're telling them not to do them.

 

[kruis]

Hungarians and other eastern Europeans migrated to the west in the past

The past forty years have shown that integrating other Europeans/Far-Asian immigrants is a lot easier than integrating muslims/Africans.

 

[daniels]

Most of them yeah.
All of them? lol no of course not they have second and third generation immigrants that CHOOSE to not integrate (don't even get me started on salafists) and are actually WORSE then their parents in terms of integration.
I mean lets not forget there is a small amount of radicals, pro isis and even some isis terrorists that come with the 800.000 that go ballistic if you just rip out a page of a koran, draw a cartoon and some actually want to carry out terror attacks no matter what how do you even integrate people like that? Hopefully not you just throw them out.

 

[coleco]

The past forty years have shown that integrating other Europeans/Far-Asian immigrants is a lot easier than integrating muslims/Africans.

North and south americans also tend to integrate better.

 

[...Scatter...]

Well, I mean, they're not guests. They're citizens. That's kind of a prerequisite for integrating them. If you view them as outsiders who are in Germany on sufferance, you should probably assume that they will never integrate to your standards. What would be the point? Integration might change their perspective, but it won't change yours.

And your other points are pretty silly as well. Are they going to cluster together? Yeah, probably. They're Levantine Muslims in a predominantly Teutonic Christian country. And, I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but Germans don't exactly have a reputation for sterling acceptance of others (not to mention this entire thread).

When minority groups fear abuse and disenfranchisement, they form ethnic enclaves, speak in their own language, and build communities where they can support each other without depending on the existing power structures -- because they can't trust them. So you should assume that they will do all of those things. Mainly for the same reasons that you're telling them not to do them.

As someone who had entered asylum legally many years ago and fully assimilated to my adopted country, it can be done. They are guests until they become citizens. You have to earn citizenship.

 

[Paracelsus]

As someone who had entered asylum legally many years ago and fully assimilated to my adopted country, it can be done. They are guests until they become citizens. You have to earn citizenship.

The key is the bolded. If some hundreds of thousands entered many many years ago at the same time as you did, maybe you would be telling another story, or maybe not.

 

[RoadHazard]

I don't think any country that accepts a significant amount will. Just like in that documentary, integration has largely failed in Sweden too, with massive segregation as a result. These people live to a large degree just among themselves, never really becoming part of the Swedish society. They stick with their own culture and religion, and that just doesn't go well with our Swedish values at all in a lot of cases. Multiculturalism doesn't really happen very much, as in cultures mixing together. What happens is you get different cultures existing in bubbles within the larger Swedish culture, never really mixing with it.

And yeah, I think them getting jobs is the single most important factor. Immigrants with jobs join society in a completely different way, and can become very well integrated. But there aren't enough jobs for everyone, here nor in Germany. So no, real integration of all these people won't happen.

 

[Apt101]

Well, I mean, they're not guests. They're citizens. That's kind of a prerequisite for integrating them. If you view them as outsiders who are in Germany on sufferance, you should probably assume that they will never integrate to your standards. What would be the point? Integration might change their perspective, but it won't change yours.

And your other points are pretty silly as well. Are they going to cluster together? Yeah, probably. They're Levantine Muslims in a predominantly Teutonic Christian country. And, I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but Germans don't exactly have a reputation for sterling acceptance of others (not to mention this entire thread).

When minority groups fear abuse and disenfranchisement, they form ethnic enclaves, speak in their own language, and build communities where they can support each other without depending on the existing power structures -- because they can't trust them. So you should assume that they will do all of those things. Mainly for the same reasons that you're telling them not to do them.

We also don't live in a romantic utopia, so certain things have to be expected and considered, including the ingrained millions who already live within the society.

Look, I am ultra liberal, but I understand these things aren't easy and have to be confronted logically and realistically.

 

[Walshicus]

The answer is no, and we're all going to be feeling the effect of our refusal to act in Syria for decades to come.

 

[Interceptor]

I don't think any country that accepts a significant amount will. Just like in that documentary, integration has largely failed in Sweden too, with massive segregation as a result. These people live to a large degree just among themselves, never really becoming part of the Swedish society. They stick with their own culture and religion, and that just doesn't go well with our Swedish values at all in a lot of cases. Multiculturalism doesn't really happen very much, as in cultures mixing together. What happens is you get different cultures existing in bubbles within the larger Swedish culture, never really mixing with it.

And yeah, I think them getting jobs is the single most important factor. Immigrants with jobs join society in a completely different way, and can become very well integrated. But there aren't enough jobs for everyone, here nor in Germany. So no, real integration of all these people won't happen.

Yep. Unfortunately the countries they are heading to are not very focused on the lower end of the job spectrum. So either i believe german news outlets and they are all doctors and lawyers or they chose those contries because the welfare exceeds a normal job at the lower end in competing countries.

 

[Kickz]

, and the attitudes displayed are shocking to say the least. The young students interviewed there refuse to marry Christians (they were of Muslim background),

OMG not that!!!!! Fuck them!!!

 

[SporeCrawler]

Just came across a incendiary documentary by Germany's leading left leaning TV station ZDF, where for some reason they were able to air this documentary a few weeks ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM

In it they interview 2nd generation immigrants from the MidEast, those whose parents are not too dissimilar from the most recent refugees, and the attitudes displayed are shocking to say the least. The young students interviewed there refuse to marry Christians (they were of Muslim background), believe their rules of their families trump the German constitution, and express attitudes that were....self segregating to say the least. And that is with the past immigrants from a decade ago or so, not including the 800,000 likely ones coming in later this year.

Should Germany factor in how assimilable those refugees are in determining their refugee asylum policies in the face of this current crisis?

Not possible since the right to asylum is a constitutional right of refugees (article 16a of the german constitution)

And, I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but Germans don't exactly have a reputation for sterling acceptance of others (not to mention this entire thread).

Thats a really nice way of saying "germany murdered millions of jews in the holocaust"

 

[Opto]

Sure, if there's effort. Surprise though, out of 800k of any population, there's gonna be jerks and assholes.

 

[gohepcat]

People do understand that these people are not immigrants they refugees...right?

Are you worried that they'll integrate? Well… you don't really have a choice do you? We have a moral obligation to help these people. It's going to take money and resources and we have no other choice.

 

[titiklabingapat]

I think integration in this respect basically means finding them a place in society while getting them to incorporate into it and not be a confrontational force. This is always an issue when a large and sudden intake of immigrants occur from a particular region and culture. My father lived through it when a whole bunch of Filipinos (like himself) suddenly came to the USA in the mid-70's. I hate to diss my own people but many of them had issues grasping the simple cultural and legal differences and how they translate to living peacefully in a different, more advanced society.

I.E. they were some rough, rough individuals unaccustomed to how daily governance and rule of law is administered.

Eh, Filipinos have successfully integrated and the Filipino newer immigrants like my family continue to integrate successfully.

 

[norinrad]

Syria has a highly educated population, with the right moves and laws in place, I think German society stands to benefit from it. If a person is a doctor in Syria and he's not allowed to be a doctor in Germany, then we have a problem.

 

[Apt101]

Eh, Filipinos have successfully integrated and the Filipino newer immigrants like my family continue to integrate successfully.

I'm not saying they didn't, as I am a product of it. But some of my uncles, aunts, and cousins are testament that it can be a struggle.

 

[rooflapimp]

Syria has a highly educated population, with the right moves and laws in place, I think German society stands to benefit from it. If a person is a doctor in Syria and he's not allowed to be a doctor in Germany, then we have a problem.

Language is usually an issue.

 

[coleco]

Language is usually an issue.

And cultural background.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

it depends on what you mean by trump. for instance if the government allows the drinking of alcohol but your faith forbids it, is it wrong to not drink alcohol?

And I don't think people are breaking the law because their faith says it's OK.

That example isn't accurate however. The law doesn't compel the consumption of alcohol. It'd be like saying someone doesn't believe in corporations because he didn't incorporate a company, despite the law allowing you to do so.

It'd be more accurate to consider a fact scenario where a guardian denies their charge life saving medical procedures on religious grounds despite a duty of care to the charge.

 

[PdotMichael]

Syria has a highly educated population, with the right moves and laws in place, I think German society stands to benefit from it. If a person is a doctor in Syria and he's not allowed to be a doctor in Germany, then we have a problem.

Yes, people forget that only the mid class and better can pay the price to get to Germany in the first place. Most of the refugees are stuck in Turkey or even desperate trying to find a way to leave Syria.

 

[norinrad]

Language is usually an issue.

Just as i said, with the right laws in place, ie that includes getting these people to learn the language, do not put them all in the same neighborhood, spread them all over the country in German neighborhoods, never allow them to send all their kids to the same schools etc.

With the right measures in places, Germany benefits in the future with their aging population.

 

[daniels]

Yep. Unfortunately the countries they are heading to are not very focused on the lower end of the job spectrum. So either i believe german news outlets and they are all doctors and lawyers or they chose those contries because the welfare exceeds a normal job at the lower end in competing countries.

Federal Minister of the Interior Thomas de Maizière said that around 15-20% are analphabetic.

 

[Renekton]

Eh, Filipinos have successfully integrated and the Filipino newer immigrants like my family continue to integrate successfully.

You guys, east asians and hindu indians in general are pretty good at integrating.

 

[Interceptor]

Syria has a highly educated population, with the right moves and laws in place, I think German society stands to benefit from it. If a person is a doctor in Syria and he's not allowed to be a doctor in Germany, then we have a problem.

"I lost my passport and papers when i was forced to swim after my boat broke down. I have nothing left but i am totally a syrian refugee & doctor. Please let me work and ignore the iraqi accent."

 

[bonesmccoy]

Migrants?

 

[norinrad]

"I lost my passport and papers when i was forced to swim after my boat broke down. I have nothing left but i am totally a syrian doctor. Please let me work and ignore the iraqi accent."

That's pretty sad if you think someone is going to do something like this. Insecure much?

 

[Interceptor]

That's pretty sad if you think someone is going to do something like this. Insecure much?

It's pretty naive to think someone wouldn't do it. I would totally do it right now. Insecure much? How old are you? 14? Go and clap at some train station.

 

[neurosisxeno]

That's pretty sad if you think someone is going to do something like this. Insecure much?

Obviously they would also have to have an aptitude test of some sort to verify they know what they claim to.

 

[Antiochus]

OMG not that!!!!! Fuck them!!!

As an interesting aside if any poster in this forum were to express such cultural sentiment and openly defend it for any reason, they will most likely be banned immediately

 

[Kabouter]

Hopefully, but unlikely, I can't think of anywhere in Europe that has succeeded in integrating its Muslim minorities. We can debate the causes of that of course, different perspectives on that will exist, but integration of these minorities has plainly failed on the whole, and I can't imagine most of the people coming over now will be much different.

 

[daniels]

That's pretty sad if you think someone is going to do something like this. Insecure much?

Uhh this is already provable happening... also there are thousands of fake syrien passports out there. I wish people would start taking the world as it is and not as they wish it should be.

 

[way more]

"I lost my passport and papers when i was forced to swim after my boat broke down. I have nothing left but i am totally a syrian refugee & doctor. Please let me work and ignore the iraqi accent."

This is why we need more than a simple verbal affirmation asking if you are a doctor to get a medical license in most countries. You wouldn't believe how many times I've had a prostate screening to later learn that the "doctor" was a simple fisherman.

 

[anonymous_abc]

My mom actually hosted a Syrian refugee family in my recently deceased Grandparents home.
They were fantastic. You have no idea how grateful and kindhearted they were. All the kids went to school within days of arriving and they all speak really good Germany after just a few months.
Sure it requires them to want to learn the language and make the best of their situation.
The grown ups are all eager to work and do their part. I can only hope that the rules are changed that it is as easy as possible for them to work in their respective fields.
But it is possible 100% .


Also ZDF is a leading left leaning tv station? lol

 

[lolmark]

Well, I mean, they're not guests. They're citizens. That's kind of a prerequisite for integrating them. If you view them as outsiders who are in Germany on sufferance, you should probably assume that they will never integrate to your standards. What would be the point? Integration might change their perspective, but it won't change yours.

And your other points are pretty silly as well. Are they going to cluster together? Yeah, probably. They're Levantine Muslims in a predominantly Teutonic Christian country. And, I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but Germans don't exactly have a reputation for sterling acceptance of others (not to mention this entire thread).

When minority groups fear abuse and disenfranchisement, they form ethnic enclaves, speak in their own language, and build communities where they can support each other without depending on the existing power structures -- because they can't trust them. So you should assume that they will do all of those things. Mainly for the same reasons that you're telling them not to do them.

Germans need to understand that ethnic enclaves will ultimately serve a useful purpose for new immigrants and it sometimes will take another generation until they're considered fully German.

 

[PdotMichael]

If only there is a way to prove academic skills.

But I think I should believe the people with the right wing rhetoric that they are all trying to fake their education.

 

[norinrad]

It's pretty naive to think someone wouldn't do it. I would totally do it right now. Insecure much? How old are you? 14? Go and clap at some train station.

And how old are you 4? Do you really think the authorities are stupid, that they'd allow just anyone to be a doctor? Anyway there's no need for insults, let's keep it clean

 

[Kabouter]

Germans need to understand that ethnic enclaves will ultimately serve a useful purpose for new immigrants and it sometimes will take another generation until they're considered fully German.

How many generations does this take?

 

[Interceptor]

Germans need to understand that ethnic enclaves will ultimately serve a useful purpose for new immigrants and it sometimes will take another generation until they're considered fully German.

Germans made the experience that it's worse with each passing generation.

 

[Undead]

believe their rules of their families trump the German constitution

This is one I always hate, some and I do express SOME (meaning not all) try to do that here in the UK as well.
I am a very firm believer that you should always follow the rules and laws of whichever country you are in and if you don't like those laws then you can fuck off somewhere else.

 

[anonymous_abc]

And how old are you 4? Do you really think the authorities are stupid, that they'd allow just anyone to be a doctor? Anyway there's no need for insults, let's keep it clean

Didn't you know all these refugees are Frank Abagnale, Jr. and can successfully pretend and convince anyone that they are indeed a medical doctor. They even go a step further and don't even require fake diplomas.

 

[Boss Mog]

What, exactly, does successfully integrate mean?

I mean, they probably aren't going to pack up and move back to Syria. So by one standard, yeah, I think Germany will integrate them just fine.

They probably aren't all going to be blond, blue-eyed Protestants in twenty years either. That's probably not possible. So by another standard there's no way it'll work.

So what are your expectations, exactly?

Integrate means fit in. When you immigrate to a country you are expected to learn how to blend in there. Learn the language, the customs, the laws, the values, try to dress like the locals, give your kids names in the language of that country, etc... If you're unwilling to do these things then there's little chance that you will get along with most of the natives especially if instead you try to force your culture/beliefs on them.

 

[Interceptor]

Didn't you know all these refugees are Frank Abagnale, Jr. and can successfully pretend and convince anyone that they are indeed a medical doctor. They even go a step further and don't even require fake diplomas.

What makes you think they actually want to work as doctors? What if you wanted to migrate to Germany but couldn't in the past? Just be a syrian doctor. Unfortunately you can't work in your "old" profession but enjoy the stay until we find something new.

 

[daniels]

Germans need to understand that ethnic enclaves will ultimately serve a useful purpose for new immigrants and it sometimes will take another generation until they're considered fully German.

They have second and third generation immigrants that CHOOSE to not integrate and are actually WORSE then their parents in terms of integration.

 

[norinrad]

Integrate means fit in. When you immigrate to a country you are expected to learn how to blend in there. Learn the language, the customs, the laws, the values, try to dress like the locals, give your kids names in the language of that country, etc... If you're unwilling to do these things then there's little chance that you will get along with most of the natives especially if instead you try to force your culture/beliefs on them.

I would love to see some sort of a contract like this, and make everyone coming in sign for it. Amnesty, Human's rights watch and that useless organization known as the UN would probably have a filed day with such a contract.

 

[Gastone]

I doubt Germany, or any other European nation, will be able to properly integrate the immigrants and refugees that are currently pouring into Europe. It's a problem now, and it will be a problem in the future

 

[Messofanego]

Migrants?

Refugees is the correct term here.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

I think this will cause Germany problems for a long time. Once the Muslim intake as whole can handle criticism of its religion, respect gays, women and non-muslims as equal etc, things will be better. That is centuries away, IMO.
Welfare dependency will likely be an issue with the huge number Germany has taken in, if the percentage of refugees/migrants there claim it in similar numbers to what they do here in Australia.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Uhh...no? Most religious people would not say their beliefs trump the laws of their country. Some might try to influence laws through campaigning or grass roots activities, but that's not the same thing.

Well that depends on where they're from. Islam isn't just a religion but also a form of government. Islam has Islamic laws, there are countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan ruled by Islamic law so their religion == law (Sharia)

 

[lolmark]

They have second and third generation immigrants that CHOOSE to not integrate and are actually WORSE then their parents in terms of integration.

Welp, I mean, this is only my experience from the history of US immigration. Shit takes awhile...