Kenshin001
Member
Hasn't Germany already successfully assimilated a large number of Turks? Why should the Syrians be any different?
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Will Germany Be Able to Successfully Integrate Those 800,000 Migrants?
- Thread starter Antiochus
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anonymous_abc
Member
Citizens of Turkish decent are by far the largest minority in Germany.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Couldn't the translators at the registering stations easily be able to weed them out?
It all seems very complicated.
English is an official language of Pakistan, and half the people there speak it. How do you weed out someone who just speaks English and single them out as specifically being Pakistani? The problem is that you can't send someone back to their home country unless they tell you where they're from. If they destroy their documentation and simply don't tell you where they're from then you don't know where that is.
No doubt it's not a new phenomenon. I'm just saying an 'open door' policy for certain nationalities doesn't work and encourages this behaviour.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Different kind of Muslim?
Fear of Muslims is much wider and deeper than it was when the Turks emigrated to Germany?
anonymous_abc
Member
But what is the alternative to an open door for war/conflict refugees?
They don't get asylum right. No work permit, no visa. No money. They can stay in the asylum centres, but I'm sure that those people who try to scam the system don't do it just to stay in those centres. So they will come forward at some point.
MaschinenZimmer
Banned
Successfully? The current generation of Germans with Turkish roots are speaking worse German then the generation before them, they are also more radical in terms of Islam interpretation then their parents generation. Add to the fact that they have problems finding work, are less or worse educated then their parents and are responsible for most violent crimes in Germany...
I wouldn't call that successful.
anonymous_abc
Member
Hyperbole much?
You might want to back that up with some real data.
Darren870
Member
Well most the Turks came over to rebuild Germany, they were cheap labor. They had jobs to keep them occupied and busy.
Obviously that is not the case here, nor do I think it was 800,000 people. Though I could be wrong.
Either way, it will be interesting. However, I think the best course of action would be to break them up. That is the best way for integration in my opinion. Have the kids go o German schools. Have the family work with Germans and live in German communities. Don't let them create their own communities, that's how it will fail.
Just my opinion, we will see...
PdotMichael
Banned
What kind of nonsense.
Yeah, creating ghettos must be avoided at all costs. There needs to be a concentrated effort to distribute them in an organised way across Germany.
QuicheFontaine
Member
A closed door, with quotas set based on how many people each host country is willing / able to accept. Letting droves into the EU on the basis that we'll sort it our later is short sighted and not sustainable.
Interceptor
Banned
Maybe watch the video this topic is about. Or study some available official statistics. It's all there too see.
anonymous_abc
Member
The war won't just go on hold once the quotas are full.
anonymous_abc
Member
If done right the countries with open arms today will greatly benefit from that in 20+ years.
Language learning & laws, sure, honoring certain customs, maybe, but what the fuck does the rest have to do with integration? Integration doesn't mean the refugees have to start dressing like the majority or naming their kids in the language of the country. If some idiot doesn't "get along" with a person with a arab-sounding name who dresses differently, then that's on the idiot, not the immigrant.Boss★Moogle;178065101 said:
Horrible, horrible post. You have such an ingredibly pathetic, black & white & just plain wrong view of this whole issue.Boss★Moogle;178061504 said:
TanookiTom
Member
Guys please check your numbers... it's just insane which kind of figures are being juggled around here... there will not be 800,000 aditional Syrian muslims living in Germany at the end of the year.
Of the roughly 200,000 asylum seekers who applied for asylum in Germany so far this year, only 41,000 came from Syria. The largest group yes, but it still puts things in perspective, I hope.
Many more came from Balkan countries and will not be granted asylum.
At the end of the day (year) Germany will have many Syrians and Muslims from other countries granted refuge and they will stay for years to come. But the numbers being spread in here are plain wrong and misleading.
Of the roughly 200,000 asylum seekers who applied for asylum in Germany so far this year, only 41,000 came from Syria. The largest group yes, but it still puts things in perspective, I hope.
Many more came from Balkan countries and will not be granted asylum.
At the end of the day (year) Germany will have many Syrians and Muslims from other countries granted refuge and they will stay for years to come. But the numbers being spread in here are plain wrong and misleading.
MaschinenZimmer
Banned
Are you guys for real? Just a quick google shows up:
English:
http://www.thelocal.de/20090125/16987
From the freaking wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/turks-in-germany-are-a-time-bomb
German:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/zwischen-integration-und-abschottung.724.de.html?dram:article_id=99034
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/arch...besuch-hilft-oft-wenig,10810590,10404834.html
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...and-am-schlechtesten-integriert-a-603294.html
I can find more, but I find this ridiculous. Better show me data that is stating the opposite. Turks are the worst integrated nationality in Germany.
anonymous_abc
Member
Quoted for truth.
Kenshin001
Member
I don't think it's possible to make people not form their own communities. It's only natural they will gravitate to their own at the beginning. The test will be if their kids filter out into the greater society. I was under the impression that's what the Turks have done but maybe I was misinformed.
Cap'n Cook
Member
Interceptor
Banned
So what is it now? Open doors for everyone because war refugees or random "quotes for thruth" stating the opposite.
Go and clap at some train station? What would you rather do, spit on refugees?
anonymous_abc
Member
I never said open door for everyone.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
According to UNHCR 75% of these migrants are men (and 13% children, 12% women).
Personally, I think the number of men is an understatement based on these pictures from Hungary and Macedonia:
Journalists/photographers pick the most striking pictures for their stories about the European migrant crisis, and that means we see primarily pictures of suffering families, crying children, etc. The reality is that the vast majority of these people are young men.
Bots are better than you
Banned
See, i agree that there have to be official programs for integration, language courses, programs to get the foreign degrees and job qualifications acknowledged here to ease the way into getting a job.
But refugees/immigrants need to show that they are willing to integrate themselves. I'm not talking about ditching religion or tradition, but the adaption of those to the new home.
If one is not willing to adapt, neither the amount nor the quality of integration programs, official or not, is going to make a difference.
Yeah, most prominent examples are politicians like Cem Özdemir, the federal chairman of the party "Bündnis 90/Die Grünen" (you could call them liberal-left), or football/soccer players like Mesut Özil, Ilkay Gündogan or Jerome Boateng (although not a turk/with turkish parents), or comedians/actors like Elyas M'Barek or Bülent Ceylan.
They managed to preserve their culture and adapt it. People like these should be role models for immigrants/refugees, or at least for their children.
But of course there are black sheep, although independent from origin/religion. This is a problem, and this problem is the result of a lack of will to integrate and the lack of existing programs to ease this integration.
Dictator93
Member
As far as I know, the 800,000 number is an expected amount of war refugees that will reach the german border by years end. Not the current amount of assylum seekers.
TanookiTom
Member
It has never been open door for everyone. Syrian refugees are being granted asylum in 90% of the cases because of course they should. Asylum is a human right and Germany signed the UN charta...
If you would google the numbers yourself you would see that its not just a random quote... See http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/faktencheck-zur-einwanderung-zahlen-gegen-vorurteile-1.2613913-5 for example. Only in German though, but the numbers should be clear. The top graphic shows the number of applications so far for this year according to the country of origin, the bottom graphic shows the % of asylum granted.
So the bottom line is: There will be many more Syrians in Germany at the end of the year, but not nearly as many as people make believe in these posts.
Plus Germany now has decades of experience as an immigration hotspot. People are already being more open and forward-thinking about it now.
For example: Nobody thought about investing in German courses for Turkish people in the 70ies (besides the very basics they needed for their jobs, perhaps) because everybody just assumed they would be going back after some years. This is completely different now, when people - unfortunately not all of them - have access to German courses from the very beginning and this is being actively supported by the government, NGO's and the population. Including the existing Muslim population which can also help in the process.
So please can people stop painting these grim pictures working with wrong numbers which are just spreading fear?
Naturally both sides need to make an effort. But let's please not forget that granting war refugees asylum is a human right. EU countries signed the respective UN charta. So saying "Germany is making a big mistake" or things like that are just inhumane, egoistical and very cyncial.
Reading comprehension much? The thread is fear-mongering that 800,000 Syrian/muslim refugees will arrive to Germany, like, tomorrow, when it seems like that's the absolute total number of POSSIBLE refugees Germany is expected to arrive to seek asylum in Germany (Syrians/muslims & others), if he is correct.
Interceptor
Banned
Yes i was questioning the reading comprehension of a specific poster who wanted to paint the picture of a refugee crisis thats entirely made up from Syrians fleeing a war and then supporting a quote that claims something else.
TanookiTom
Member
Actually this is the number of asylum seekers people expected for the whole year. Of this number, many will not be granted asylum and will be sent back after weeks/months and only a fraction (something around 25% if current figures are correct) come from Syria.
The big stupidity about the asylum process in Europe (or almost all European countries) is that besides some insanely low figures - let's say 100,000 for all of Europe if that - people have to actually make it to a European country in order to apply for asylum. Naturally this does not guarantee that this asylum will be granted. And this is even made worse by the Dublin bullshit, which would technically mean that all the refugees from the eastern Mediterranean would have to stay in Greece, Italy, Malta and the southeastern Balkan countries.
And many European countries - spearheaded by the UK - just want it to stay this way. Where is the European solidarity right there?
DerZuhälter
Member
Fear mongering ZDF bullshit.
Sorry but a certain degree of "parallel" societies is absolutely normal. Don't see anyone complain about the asian subcultures in Düsseldorf keeping to themselves.
They work, they abide the law, then no one is going to give a fuck.
It's always a question of how you interpret the data you have. Education and income correlate. Thus: It's not racial or nationality problem, it's a social problem.
Your so-called "Türkendeutsch" is something that is very common of demographically lower-income areas and also applies to german kids. Please walk around these areas, or even better: Take a seat in the busses that travel along schoolroutes. Sit in the front row, don't turn around and say who is turkish and who is german or asian.
This type of "slang" has become very common on Hauptschulen* and Realschulen* which to a higher degree than on Gymnasien*, accomadate children of lower-income families.
*Types of schools in the german school system. Gymnasien (pl.) allow for a higher school degree than Realschulen and Hauptschulen. This highest school degree, called Abitur, is essential to be able to go to University.
EDIT:
I reject the notion that either one of those two is funny or can act.
Pray for me. I have to watch "Fack ju Göhte 2" with my girl this week.
Sorry but a certain degree of "parallel" societies is absolutely normal. Don't see anyone complain about the asian subcultures in Düsseldorf keeping to themselves.
They work, they abide the law, then no one is going to give a fuck.
It's always a question of how you interpret the data you have. Education and income correlate. Thus: It's not racial or nationality problem, it's a social problem.
Your so-called "Türkendeutsch" is something that is very common of demographically lower-income areas and also applies to german kids. Please walk around these areas, or even better: Take a seat in the busses that travel along schoolroutes. Sit in the front row, don't turn around and say who is turkish and who is german or asian.
This type of "slang" has become very common on Hauptschulen* and Realschulen* which to a higher degree than on Gymnasien*, accomadate children of lower-income families.
*Types of schools in the german school system. Gymnasien (pl.) allow for a higher school degree than Realschulen and Hauptschulen. This highest school degree, called Abitur, is essential to be able to go to University.
EDIT:
I reject the notion that either one of those two is funny or can act.
Pray for me. I have to watch "Fack ju Göhte 2" with my girl this week.
MurkyZebra2417
Member
You need to realize that not every refugee will stay in germany. We will probably keep the highly educated ones and a few others. The majority will be sent back in a few years/months depending on where they Come from.
Interceptor
Banned
Yeah why does nobody complain about the Japanese in Düsseldorf? Can't see a difference to something like Marxloh or Neukölln. It's all the same.
/s
/s
jimbobsmells
Member
Nope I have severe doubts that they will integrate. There will be no incentive for them without lots more jobs, and they'll no doubt be lumped together somewhere so they'll naturally stick to each other for support.
My father came to the UK from Iran fleeing the Islamic Revolution. He got a job, learnt the language, mixed and socialised with locals and is now everyone sees him as English. He's still Iranian at heart but he's integrated above and beyond what's called for. Other Iranians we know have struggled much more. He actually puts it down to the fact that he has no religion to 'hold him back'. That might be hard to hear for some, but I agree with him.
My father came to the UK from Iran fleeing the Islamic Revolution. He got a job, learnt the language, mixed and socialised with locals and is now everyone sees him as English. He's still Iranian at heart but he's integrated above and beyond what's called for. Other Iranians we know have struggled much more. He actually puts it down to the fact that he has no religion to 'hold him back'. That might be hard to hear for some, but I agree with him.
TanookiTom
Member
Have you actually ever been to Neukölln? It's the place to be right now in Berlin, and Rütlischule is now a popular "Modellschule". Sure, a lot of this has happened through gentrification, leading to a lot of the Turkish/muslim population moving to other parts. But all in all this "parallel society" works just fine in Kreuzberg, Neukölln and even Wedding.
And regarding the Turks being the worst integrated: Yes, as I have said nobody made an effort to integrate them for decades. This is different now. There will always be people who don't want to integrate, but now that society and - more importantly - politics are aware of the importance, I am confident that things will go down quite differently.
Interceptor
Banned
The common knowledge of the term Rütlischule alone should tell you the difference of the Asian and turkish community. And of course it's a modellschule. The whole country was looking at it. We like to throw money at everything to look less racist.
As someone who lived a long time in South Korea it always makes me sad when germans talk about Guest workers in the sixties. Contrary to popular belief it wasn't just turkish people. Those are just the ones causing trouble 3 generations later.
800000 people, majority of which are mostly low-education young men? That's basically a 10 on the difficulty scale to find work, plus getting this many men is just stupid, who are those guys gonna marry? I see a disaster in the making tbh, but we'll manage somehow as we always did.
Far-right movements are indeed on the rise in Sweden, but in Denmark it has already risen and become a part of mainstream politics. Economic migrants wouldn't care too much whether they end up in Denmark or Sweden, the two countries are relatively equal in terms of economy and living standards. Asylum seekers would greatly prefer Sweden though, because they are far more likely to have their asylum application granted and not be sent back / have to go into hiding.
TanookiTom
Member
Well I think in the case of Neukölln it helped ;-)
Yes, part of the problem has been shifted elsewhere in the course, but nobody needs to feel unsafe in Neukölln nowadays
at least not in most parts
Sure, there are differences between the Turkish and Asian communities. As there will be differences between the Turkish and Syrian communities. I think we're a lot better prepared to make the process smoother and more sucessful this time round.
maniac-kun
Member
There are turks that live here for 30 or more years that dont speak more than a few words German. Thats why Merkel declaired integration as failed a few years ago.
Darren870
Member
Of course it is, that's that what our instinct is. However, that's how it will fail. There are many examples of this. It creates an us vs them mentality.
This is what I don't really understand. Why is it that there is so many men?
Is the plan for them to settle somewhere and then bring their family over? Seems pretty cowardly to me. If you we're claiming asylum somewhere wouldn't you bring your whole family? Wouldn't you fear they might not be there if they are being prosecuted or bombs are going off?
Are there really? Media like to show pictures of women and children, but I've read that the vast majority of refugees (or asylum seekers) are young men.
EDIT: I'm late!
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