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Will Smash 4 competitive community have a staying power?

I don't see how this is the same thing. Little Mac was never at any point considered to be a character with "too many strengths" and his tournament presence is nearly nonexistent. The pushes to nerf him were an impulse reaction to his prominence in For Glory literally the first week or two the game came out, not because he was dominating tournaments.

Whenever somebody tries to point out Diddy's " many weaknesses," the argument boils down to "He is not literally perfect." Every character has weaknesses. Just because Diddy is not absolutely perfect doesn't mean he's balanced: His recovery is wonky? It also goes incredibly far, can launch people it hits, and is very difficult to intercept. You see people preaching "But Diddy's recovery is so gimpable!" and then you see not even one player intercept a Diddy's recovery at the top level of play. It has a learning curve and he can't recover from below the screen. It is by no means bad. He's not a great launcher? What is that supposed to mean? He has some of the fastest aerials in the game and they all launch further than Sheik's forward air. He has a quick side tilt with good range and decent launching power. His forward smash hits twice, moves him forward, AND can KO barely over 100%. His up air is literally the best launcher in the game. His specials aren't high on utility? Who on earth says that? He has a throwable item that can set up an instant grab or forward smash punish or function as a stage hazard, he has a projectile that can be used to interrupt and also held momentarily, giving it mixup potential, his side B can be used for recovery, it can be used as a punish, it's a throw mixup, it can SPIKE. I can't even imagine how someone who says Diddy's specials don't have much utility would describe Palutena's specials.

I say his launching isn't great and you say his side tilt is "decent" (I think that's generous but OK) and that his up air is good. His up air is good, but again that boils down to how he's used with juggling. It's also exactly one move that you've named that's a plus in the launch department. He's unquestionably good at the low-air game but I think his ability is narrow. You say his specials do all these things, but his side B, for example, moves quickly and in a non-standard arc. Does that mean it's bad? No, but that does mean there's only so much one can do with it in a pinch, hence utility. Same with his neutral B: maybe it can do two things you'd like it to do, but I don't know if there's another projectile in the game that leaves the user so exposed. Does that mean it's bad? No, but it does mean there are very few opportunities to use it effectively. Diddy's moves are fairly narrow in their application, which reinforces his juggle game -- it's effective and you can break it out in most any situation. Diddy doesn't have much of a secondary strategy -- as far as I know no one really plays him except to juggle -- so when (I don't think it's if) the metagame breaks down the Diddy juggle, he's not going to be looked at as that same sort of strong character.

That's why I say I think the game will grow beyond Diddy, and that's why I compared complaints about Diddy to the first-week complaints about Little Mac (which as you said correctly were largely due to the way For Glory works, absolutely). Time will tell if Diddy needs to be weakened or if the character's usefulness is just too narrow to stand up over the long run. My bet is on the latter, but you're free to place yours elsewhere.
 
Outside of the n64 graphics, 64 is awesome to watch. Everything feels and sounds like it hits hard and it has the crazy combos that Melee also has.
Also, the sound of Link's bombs is the most satisfying sound ever.

Those things are practically nukes.
 
OP: Yes it will.

Competitive community is the only reason we get patch notes since Nintendo's version amounts to "stuff was changed".

More like, "We released a patch."

....aaaaaaaand that's it.

Half the time people have to find out something was changed because "hey, my replays will no longer work". :-p

I'mma' need them to step their patch note game up.
 
How the hell did the Brawl competitive scene survived the whole tripping fiasco before Project M? I rarely follow fighting game communities so I'm genuinely concerned: how many final matches were decided because at a precise moment in time one character tripped and the other connected a smash Attack?

To all of you who followed the streams and the pros, how was it?
 
Gold, Silver, and Crystal?

But Pokemon didn't get big competitively till DPP (Diamond Pearl Platinum) and very few players would like the 100 turn minimum battles of GSC
Pokemon had a competitive scene from Gen I. Hell there were net battlers way back then.

Smash 4 will have a scene, partly because Nintendo is pushing and supporting it. If there is money in Smash 4, people will flock to it.
 
Pokemon had a competitive scene from Gen I. Hell there were net battlers way back then.

Smash 4 will have a scene, partly because Nintendo is pushing and supporting it. If there is money in Smash 4, people will flock to it.

He said big competitive scene
 
Smash 4 will have a scene, partly because Nintendo is pushing and supporting it. If there is money in Smash 4, people will flock to it.

The way people are so quick and vocal about dissecting Smash Wii U and discussing the metagame makes me feel confident about the long-term viability of the game. But then part of me wonders if that's just the maturity of the scene online and a reaction to the Melee/Brawl schism.
 
How the hell did the Brawl competitive scene survived the whole tripping fiasco before Project M? I rarely follow fighting game communities so I'm genuinely concerned: how many final matches were decided because at a precise moment in time one character tripped and the other connected a smash Attack?

To all of you who followed the streams and the pros, how was it?

About 0.
There likely have been matches where tripping played a significant role to the outcome, but it was such a marginal amount of matches that it's virtually none. I can't remember a single major tournament where a match was decided by trpping
 
How the hell did the Brawl competitive scene survived the whole tripping fiasco before Project M? I rarely follow fighting game communities so I'm genuinely concerned: how many final matches were decided because at a precise moment in time one character tripped and the other connected a smash Attack?

To all of you who followed the streams and the pros, how was it?

I think I've only see that happen (trip => smash) once, but I didn't watch tourneys very much back then. I did see a few trips that were punished, or prevented one player from punishing the other.
 
How the hell did the Brawl competitive scene survived the whole tripping fiasco before Project M? I rarely follow fighting game communities so I'm genuinely concerned: how many final matches were decided because at a precise moment in time one character tripped and the other connected a smash Attack?

To all of you who followed the streams and the pros, how was it?

About 0.
There likely have been matches where tripping played a significant role to the outcome, but it was such a marginal amount of matches that it's virtually none. I can't remember a single major tournament where a match was decided by trpping

Well, actually... :P

Tripping didn't kill Brawl. Time outs, campy gameplay, and Meta Knight dominating the meta game killed it. Meanwhile Melee was getting faster and faster.


Smash 4 shares some problems Brawl had, but not anywhere near the same extent. It will be fine.
 
Yes Smash 4 will, the game will receive updates and has an online that isn't complete ass. New players will play Smash 4.

Melee will not die yet, is a community that shits on every new SSB the moment it is announced, such levels of stubbornness and unfounded hate tend to sit and brew for a long time.

(Not saying all Melee players are like that, for the political correctness brigade)
 
About 0.
There likely have been matches where tripping played a significant role to the outcome, but it was such a marginal amount of matches that it's virtually none. I can't remember a single major tournament where a match was decided by trpping

Not in any majors, but I've lost two tournament sets because of it.
 
I don't see any reason why Smash 4 would just die.

Gold, Silver, and Crystal?

But Pokemon didn't get big competitively till DPP (Diamond Pearl Platinum) and very few players would like the 100 turn minimum battles of GSC

I would argue that it started to get big during gen 3.
 
MVD (the Little Mac player you're talking about ) just 3-0 a Diddy player with Little Mac.

Just fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucking wrecked him.
 
That's why I say I think the game will grow beyond Diddy, and that's why I compared complaints about Diddy to the first-week complaints about Little Mac (which as you said correctly were largely due to the way For Glory works, absolutely). Time will tell if Diddy needs to be weakened or if the character's usefulness is just too narrow to stand up over the long run. My bet is on the latter, but you're free to place yours elsewhere.

He has one of the fastest moves in the game and it KO's at 110%. And he has some of the best aerials in the game, in a game where safe and strong aerials are rare. He's not going anywhere regardless of how good his specials turn out to be or not. At worst he would be a high tier character with mid-tier specials.

Also there is no justice in a world where Greninja gets nerfed as hard as he did but Diddy gets to remain. I will retreat to Pokemon where he is completely ridiculous.
 
If the rest of the big events are as dull to watch as Apex finals, I think it's potential to get big stream viewers is limited. Send like a decent number of people enjoy playing it seriously though, so I could see the community lasting longer than Brawl did.
 
The wording here is biased. "I'm asking you to consider how that action hurt the people enjoying Smash 4 and why it may have not been the right thing to do. Compared to "I'm asking you to consider their experience and to acknowledge that their frustrations were legitimate.

Smash 4 went to same tournament, experienced the same issues, the schedule got fucked up for reasons out of both communities hands. Your frustration is irrelevant and in no way gives credence to act like a bunch of cunts and not even be decent enough to accept full responsibility which only a few, if any, top Melee players did.

Yes the tournament went on way too late because a whole day was lost, schedule got fucked up. Guess what you aren't forced to be at Apex it is a voluntary event, if you have work in the morning and decided to stay out at 3am when its fucking freezing that is your fault entirely. Things get out of hand, prioritize yourself, these are basic things any person knows. What's more important a Smash tournament that is going to be available online later in better quality than the stream itself or your fucking job? Regardless of the answer because it varies from person to person the point still stands that it is down to you to decide if you want to stay somewhere, if things are running late it is your choice to stay.

Smash 4 seeding got fucked up as well, two top Japanese players in the same pool along with 2 other top Socal Smash 4 players, yet none of this brought up into the discussion for why the Smash 4 finals went on for so long.

Also you think Melee It On Me would present a more objective discussion on the subject than Kotaku which has no affiliation towards any one game? Okay.

I think your being a bit unreasonable, people payed money to go to the tournament and see melee, and if they wanted to see melee they were forced to sit through a game they did not enjoy watching, until almost midnight. Of course it was inappropriate what they did, but saying that meleeitonme is biased, because their saying that melee players had a reason to be mad is not really fair. Also some of their members were on hand to make the crowd shut up, so that's something.
 
Sounds like a john

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

But in the case that it isn't, I'm simply stating a fact. I've played enough tournament sets where something like that can happen (although I got really unlucky to have it happen twice).
 
I think your being a bit unreasonable, people payed money to go to the tournament and see melee, and if they wanted to see melee they were forced to sit through a game they did not enjoy watching, until almost midnight. Of course it was inappropriate what they did, but saying that meleeitonme is biased, because their saying that melee players had a reason to be mad is not really fair. Also some of their members were on hand to make the crowd shut up, so that's something.

I understand people paid money, and went through a lot to make shit happen. But sometimes things do not go as planned. You are not entitled to something like this, it is your choice for how you want to deal with something like what happened at Apex. That's why a good amount of the entrants didn't end up showing up to the tourney after they changed venues, they thought it wasn't worth it. I repeat this was not a situation where everyone was just stuck and had to stay at Apex, there were clear indications that it was going to take longer than expected. There was a schedule and Smash 4 was going to be streamed on the big stage regardless. Their reason to be mad is completely irrelevant to what ended up happening and how one community got the shit end of the stick, and Scar actually trying to downplay that is completely unacceptable.

The way his post was worded screamed of the same drive by posts that were all over the place on Smashboards and r/smashbros where members of the community tried to avoid full responsibility as much as possible. The only difference was that his post was much more coherent and expertly worded to sound like he was sympathetic. There is a clear indication of bias in his statement and saying there isn't is just putting your head underneath the ground.
 
Yes it will. Secret balance updates snuck in patches and DLC will ensure of the game keeping fresh. Melee is still here to stay, whether people like or not, but I think the community has done a decent job of getting Smash 4 into tournaments and keeping it alive.
 
Smash 4 can be patched into a better game than Melee competitively. Melee is stuck being melee for better or worse. So could go either way.
 
Well, actually... :P

Tripping didn't kill Brawl. Time outs, campy gameplay, and Meta Knight dominating the meta game killed it. Meanwhile Melee was getting faster and faster.


Smash 4 shares some problems Brawl had, but not anywhere near the same extent. It will be fine.
Could someone explain to me in layman non-tourney-enthusiast terms what does "time outs" and "campy gameplay" mean in Smash? And what contributed to that being so allegedly much worse on Brawl than Melee?
 
I understand people paid money, and went through a lot to make shit happen. But sometimes things do not go as planned. You are not entitled to something like this, it is your choice for how you want to deal with something like what happened at Apex. That's why a good amount of the entrants didn't end up showing up to the tourney after they changed venues, they thought it wasn't worth it. I repeat this was not a situation where everyone was just stuck and had to stay at Apex, there were clear indications that it was going to take longer than expected. There was a schedule and Smash 4 was going to be streamed on the big stage regardless. Their reason to be mad is completely irrelevant to what ended up happening and how one community got the shit end of the stick, and Scar actually trying to downplay that is completely unacceptable.

The way his post was worded screamed of the same drive by posts that were all over the place on Smashboards and r/smashbros where members of the community tried to avoid full responsibility as much as possible. The only difference was that his post was much more coherent and expertly worded to sound like he was sympathetic. There is a clear indication of bias in his statement and saying there isn't is just putting your head underneath the ground.

Well i'm not sure I follow you. Of course no one forced them to stay, but they wanted to see the tournament, and to do that they had to wait longer then expected and with the storm outside, tensions were high. Scar's not trying to excuse what melee players did, he's just asking smash 4 players to understand that the people were tense because of the circumstances surrounding the event. I don't think Scar is the type of guy too excuse shitty things the smash community does, when he regularly calls them out. I re-read the article and he just wants the communities to not hate each other and come to an understanding, so both can move forward.
 
Could someone explain to me in layman non-tourney-enthusiast terms what does "time outs" and "campy gameplay" mean in Smash? And what contributed to that being so allegedly much worse on Brawl than Melee?
Campy Gameplay = You can get a lead and sit on it far too easily because the defensive options are too strong relative to the offensive ones.

Customs should help Smash 4 out a lot in terms of diversity for the time being.
 
I think getting custom moves into tournaments will go a looong way towards that. Hopefully the next update will add something to make it easier for tournament organizers to set up.

Melee people should learn to move on. 20XX is real and there's nothing new to learn from the game.

A new method of powershielding was just discovered a few weeks ago actually
 
I really do not understand how 4 is the better game according to some users. Yes it is an improvement from Brawl, but its still not anywhere near as rich a fighting game as melee. And isn't that what matters?
 
Smash 4 can be patched into a better game than Melee competitively. Melee is stuck being melee for better or worse. So could go either way.

Define "a better game than Melee competitively". If that just means balancing characters in Smash 4 but leveling the core speed/mechanics intact, then no it won't be better than Melee for the current Melee players and thus won't shrink that community at all.

What I think a lot of people are missing is that it has nothing to do with pure level/character balance and being the best "competitive" game. It has a lot to do with the speed of the game and exactly how it plays with L cancelling, wave dashing, etc. Smash 4 and Melee are completely different games, just because they're both Smash games doesn't mean one game lives or dies for the other.

Smash 4 doesn't play like Melee, so Melee players don't play Smash 4 regardless of balance. Just like I don't expect to see the Smash 4 community migrate to Melee if it dies, because Melee doesn't play like Smash 4. They're different games and foster different competitive communities.

The only thing that really matters is if the Smash 4 community can be self sustaining. So far the answer is yes, but the core of Smash 4 needs to be exciting enough to watch and play at a competitive level.
 
Well i'm not sure I follow you. Of course no one forced them to stay, but they wanted to see the tournament, and to do that they had to wait longer then expected and with the storm outside, tensions were high. Scar's not trying to excuse what melee players did, he's just asking smash 4 players to understand that the people were tense because of the circumstances surrounding the event. I don't think Scar is the type of guy too excuse shitty things the smash community does, when he regularly calls them out. I re-read the article and he just wants the communities to not hate each other and come to an understanding, so both can move forward.

I got this too and I commend him for that, but I still get the sense he downplayed the events that happened and because of that attitudes from the Melee community will not change.
 
I really do not understand how 4 is the better game according to some users. Yes it is an improvement from Brawl, but its still not anywhere near as rich a fighting game as melee. And isn't that what matters?

People are unique they like different things from the games they play.

edit:
I got this too and I commend him for that, but I still get the sense he downplayed the events that happened and because of that attitudes from the Melee community will not change.

I can see where your coming from, but I have faith it will change with all the melee figure heads condemning it. The chants during brawl at the previous Apex was worse and went unchecked. This year it wasn't as bad and with the backlash hopefully people are learning. There used to be a certain word that was chanted, that rhymes with cape, but that's pretty much gone, hopefully this will be too. I'd hate to see the chants causing a permanent rift between the smash 4 and melee scenes, but its also up to the melee scene to show they've changed come next event.
 
『Inaba Resident』;152261321 said:
Not everybody wants the same things out of a game.
It isn't hard to understand.

But the competitive communities usually DO want the same thing out of games. That's why Melee still lives because it offers the best Smash platform for competitive play. It isn't hard to understand.
 
Yes it will. Secret balance updates snuck in patches and DLC will ensure of the game keeping fresh. Melee is still here to stay, whether people like or not, but I think the community has done a decent job of getting Smash 4 into tournaments and keeping it alive.

I agree with you 100%......Smash 4 will stay alive due to the new members to the comunity (like myself) and there are also a lot of people that are intrested in playing and watching 4. It can easily co-exist with Melee.
 
But the competitive communities usually DO want the same thing out of games. That's why Melee still lives because it offers the best Smash platform for competitive play. It isn't hard to understand.

And? What point are you trying to make?
He asked why some think Smash 4 is better than Melee.
It comes down to preferences.
 
But the competitive communities usually DO want the same thing out of games. That's why Melee still lives because it offers the best Smash platform for competitive play. It isn't hard to understand.

This is false, people who like smash 4 and brawl want a different thing out of the game then people who like melee.
 
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