AuthenticM
Member
I think Cyberpunk 2077 might even be more ambitious than the Witcher 3. Just my thoughts though.
I was going to say this.
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Will we ever get anything as ambitious and vast as Mass Effect from another developer
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I was going to say this.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Most of the games people are posting aren't really the same as the scope or the 'trilogy drama' of the Mass Effect series... which is what I think the OP was getting at.
I think there's some confusing because perhaps ambitious and vast are not the best words for what his OP described. What I think he's getting at is the epic scope of the journay of Mass Effect series. Mass Effect is probably the only game we've come close to a drama, in the sense that we grow so attached to a drama that goes on for 3-5 seasons.
A lot of the games being posted may be ambitious or have amazing scale or be epic as single games, but Mass Effect had the scope of a drama in that it was such a long ride spanning multiple games and half a decade. The scope of Mass Effect is different in that it was a drama trilogy... I mean, it's not the same as 3 epic games that have unique stories. Uncharted, for example, may be like 3 great movies, and certainly epic, but it's not the same as the scope of Mass Effect... Mass Effect was more like 1 drama that went out for 5 years.
That's a very unique thing in games. Something like Star Citizen or No Man's Land is a very different thing; certainly it's epic or ambitious but I don't think it's what the OP was looking for. Something like Witcher may be closer but I don't think it's quite the same in its continued drama narrative, and more importantly it's not as much as an event. Witcher 3 could end up being a far better 'end of the 3rd season' than ME3, but I don't think W1 or W2 will mean the same to the series as ME1 or ME2 meant to ME trilogy. Whether it's Metal Gear Solid, Witcher, Uncharted, it's really not the same as what I think the OP means. Maybe Xenosaga or Persona, I really don't know I don't play JPRGs anymore. But even then, maybe still not the same because a part of the scope was also big ME was just an event with so much buzz, like the start of a famous drama's new season. That sort of anticipation, build up and continuation from season to season... What I think he means, simply, is the scope of a trilogy... the same level of connection, emotional investment, and continuation of a 3-season drama.
To which I'd answer, I don't know. I don't think Witcher will become the same because it cannot start or attach us as abruptly. Witcher is already too established, was introduced so slowly over time with such great detail because of the series slow rise to prominence. ME was a very abrupt beginning. ME started with such a blank slate and so much unknown. It also left so much unanswered, with so much potential for carry-over -- all characteristics that make us invested in ME like a drama that are rarely captured by other games.
Something like Deus Ex could have potential for it because of the open ended and uncertain/conspiracy ending, but even that was almost too aloof and with far too established setting to be quite the same. Most other big series are too fragmented per entry or more akin to movies than drama.
I don't know what or when we'll get that sort of new drama trilogy. I hope it's soon though, because for all its faults... or its many pieces that many other games excel better at in terms of those separate pieces... the sum of ME's pieces are a very unique experience and I don't think there's any other series that quite captured the same scope and continuation. I'm hoping Deus Ex Universe decides to try build upon Adam Jensen into at least a two-part narrative (envisioned from the beginning and not just decided on later if DEU is successful). Cyberpunk 2077 could be I guess because CDP has shown an interest in building series into epics, but there's no other reason to assume that, to be fair. MGS, Uncharted, Infamous etc has never been like that. So who knows. Maybe XV if they envision a XV-II and XV-III from the beginning? Haha lucky just to get a XV. I really don't think we know and it's hard to say because when ME is really the only series to ever really do that, it's obviously not a common enough think to replicate. It's a big investment and gamble for developers, too, because you have to commit so much to that second game before you even know if the first one succeeds.
It's hard to have such an epic story with a mix of ominous unknown threat and a uncertain ending because for most games, it would just be far too wholly unsatisfying... that's why I keep thinking about Deus Ex Human Revolution as a potential candidate. It has a lot of elements, such as player choice, even saving the life's of your partners (or seeing their body on a cutting board), multiple endings and consequences for your choices, a lot of uncertainty and 'unknown ominous' threats or conspiracies to work with, etc. Not nearly the 'set-up' that ME1 provided but it could be one title that could potentially be used for that. There really aren't many other contenders.
I think there's some confusing because perhaps ambitious and vast are not the best words for what his OP described. What I think he's getting at is the epic scope of the journay of Mass Effect series. Mass Effect is probably the only game we've come close to a drama, in the sense that we grow so attached to a drama that goes on for 3-5 seasons.
A lot of the games being posted may be ambitious or have amazing scale or be epic as single games, but Mass Effect had the scope of a drama in that it was such a long ride spanning multiple games and half a decade. The scope of Mass Effect is different in that it was a drama trilogy... I mean, it's not the same as 3 epic games that have unique stories. Uncharted, for example, may be like 3 great movies, and certainly epic, but it's not the same as the scope of Mass Effect... Mass Effect was more like 1 drama that went out for 5 years.
That's a very unique thing in games. Something like Star Citizen or No Man's Land is a very different thing; certainly it's epic or ambitious but I don't think it's what the OP was looking for. Something like Witcher may be closer but I don't think it's quite the same in its continued drama narrative, and more importantly it's not as much as an event. Witcher 3 could end up being a far better 'end of the 3rd season' than ME3, but I don't think W1 or W2 will mean the same to the series as ME1 or ME2 meant to ME trilogy. Whether it's Metal Gear Solid, Witcher, Uncharted, it's really not the same as what I think the OP means. Maybe Xenosaga or Persona, I really don't know I don't play JPRGs anymore. But even then, maybe still not the same because a part of the scope was also big ME was just an event with so much buzz, like the start of a famous drama's new season. That sort of anticipation, build up and continuation from season to season... What I think he means, simply, is the scope of a trilogy... the same level of connection, emotional investment, and continuation of a 3-season drama.
To which I'd answer, I don't know. I don't think Witcher will become the same because it cannot start or attach us as abruptly. Witcher is already too established, was introduced so slowly over time with such great detail because of the series slow rise to prominence. ME was a very abrupt beginning. ME started with such a blank slate and so much unknown. It also left so much unanswered, with so much potential for carry-over -- all characteristics that make us invested in ME like a drama that are rarely captured by other games.
Something like Deus Ex could have potential for it because of the open ended and uncertain/conspiracy ending, but even that was almost too aloof and with far too established setting to be quite the same. Most other big series are too fragmented per entry or more akin to movies than drama.
I don't know what or when we'll get that sort of new drama trilogy. I hope it's soon though, because for all its faults... or its many pieces that many other games excel better at in terms of those separate pieces... the sum of ME's pieces are a very unique experience and I don't think there's any other series that quite captured the same scope and continuation. I'm hoping Deus Ex Universe decides to try build upon Adam Jensen into at least a two-part narrative (envisioned from the beginning and not just decided on later if DEU is successful). Cyberpunk 2077 could be I guess because CDP has shown an interest in building series into epics, but there's no other reason to assume that, to be fair. MGS, Uncharted, Infamous etc has never been like that. So who knows. Maybe XV if they envision a XV-II and XV-III from the beginning? Haha lucky just to get a XV. I really don't think we know and it's hard to say because when ME is really the only series to ever really do that, it's obviously not a common enough think to replicate. It's a big investment and gamble for developers, too, because you have to commit so much to that second game before you even know if the first one succeeds.
It's hard to have such an epic story with a mix of ominous unknown threat and a uncertain ending because for most games, it would just be far too wholly unsatisfying... that's why I keep thinking about Deus Ex Human Revolution as a potential candidate. It has a lot of elements, such as player choice, even saving the life's of your partners (or seeing their body on a cutting board), multiple endings and consequences for your choices, a lot of uncertainty and 'unknown ominous' threats or conspiracies to work with, etc. Not nearly the 'set-up' that ME1 provided but it could be one title that could potentially be used for that. There really aren't many other contenders.
Plot weave: It spans 3 games with multiple subplots, Wrex's exile from his family, general deterioration of Krogan race, cloning on Virmire, Mordin's culpability and subsequent guilt, likewise Maelon, Blood clan's efforts to synthesize cure for political gain, the sacrifice of Bakara and her sisters, Mordin as double-agent on Sur'kesh after events of ME2, unity/destruction of Krogan clans and their placement in the ME universe, Reaper war etc
Key Actors: Mordin, Wrex, Maelon, Wreav, Bakara, Padok Wiks, Bakara, Weyrloc, Dalatrass Linron
Branches: Showdown on virmire, family armor, blood pack clan mission choice, decision to deceive Wrex/Wreav or not, decision to stop Mordin/Padok, etc
Consequences: Destruction of a race, fate of Wrex, fate of Bakara, fate of Mordin, establishment of Krogans as a reasonable expansionist force (Wrex) or ruthless militarized force (Wreav), Krogan babies including Urdnot Mordin, various cloning projects halted, Krogan participation in final battle, support of Salarian queen, cool cutscene and music.
Themes explored: Cloning, biological warfare, manifest destiny, war guilt, tribal politics, generational divide, role of women
Memorabilia
Member
Comparing Mass Effect to Destiny made me throw up in my mouth a little.
The sad thing is, however, I don't think you're wrong about how any future attempts at something epic will be infested with endless DLC and microtransactions not as extras but as the primary method of telling the story. I hope this isn't how the industry is going, but that's sure as hell how it looks with games like Destiny shipping in such a ridiculously unfinished/barebones state.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Exactly what I thought, really after the second game the ambition Bioware touted wasn't showing.
Sure, but probably not in all ways. We could have an indie RPG series that actually tries to properly tackle a branching storyline with a deep universe across multiple games but without that budget, and we might have some bigger budgeted games that try for a deep universe and well developed (relatively anyway) multi-part series, but no branching because of how nightmarish it will be to implement, or we'll see one that does multi branching and with a decent universe and budget but is only one game...
Basically, I think it's kind of a situation where you can only pick 2 of 3 or whatever. At least in regards to current budgets, but really it's more like they couldn't have gotten past a certain level of manpower/money/presentation before compromises had to be made.
Basically, I think it's kind of a situation where you can only pick 2 of 3 or whatever. At least in regards to current budgets, but really it's more like they couldn't have gotten past a certain level of manpower/money/presentation before compromises had to be made.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
The series is a shadow of what they promised.
The reality is they had to ship a game and not the universe they envisioned. The stop gap story wise that was ME2, as they reworked the fundamentals, was the sign that that vision no longer mattered.
That said, I played the living fuck out of all three.
The reality is they had to ship a game and not the universe they envisioned. The stop gap story wise that was ME2, as they reworked the fundamentals, was the sign that that vision no longer mattered.
That said, I played the living fuck out of all three.
kutthoat5150
Member
star citizen is the most likely candidate for you though it is still a ways from being finished and pc only
SpoonyBard
Banned
I don't know, having only played ME3, the world was not as huge as you expected, there were only relatively few places you could visit, and the "planets" you visited were only the size of a couple of city blocks. Especially before DLC content was added, they added a couple more levels... I'm 100% sure we'll see games bigger and more detailed than ME3 very soon. Hopefully with less DLC hell, and more content right off the bat.
The most interesting part of Mass Effect were the characters IMO, not many games have so much effort put into making so many different personalities.
The most interesting part of Mass Effect were the characters IMO, not many games have so much effort put into making so many different personalities.
Auto-Reply
Member
Doubt it, it has to have a codex with a narrator... it will have to go from there and then we'll see!
Bioware realised with ME 2 that their ambition was unfulfillable.
While they increased the scope in their storytelling the the game and your decisions didn't give much weight to your actions. ME2's desisions had almost 0 impact on the third game.
With 3, they had more freedom again but they fell short on the finishing line. The last part couldn't have been more narrow in execution.
The Geth and Krogan subplot were nice, but the main narrative lost itself. Most of the other subplots were self contained and small in scope.
While they increased the scope in their storytelling the the game and your decisions didn't give much weight to your actions. ME2's desisions had almost 0 impact on the third game.
With 3, they had more freedom again but they fell short on the finishing line. The last part couldn't have been more narrow in execution.
The Geth and Krogan subplot were nice, but the main narrative lost itself. Most of the other subplots were self contained and small in scope.
The Dear Leader
Banned
Star Citizen, as far as potential and ambition goes, theres nothing quite like it.
Well, aside from Elite Dangerous...
If Valve ever resurrects Stars of Blood, then that (it was an open-world "space pirate" game). I'd like to think that the game was put on ice because Source isn't really conducive to open-world game design chiefly due to the lack of an efficient data streaming component and so it'll be reborn as a Source 2 title once the engine has matured a bit.
Yup pretty, much this. Besides the superb character interactions, the ME franchise was ultimately a letdown. It was my Destiny of 2007, I was led to believe that it was much more than they actually delivered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Li2MIGxOww
This always made it seem like the universe is massive and each planet was interesting. But yeah, besides the main mission planets it wasn't.
real_slime
Banned
Mass Effect isn't even that vast, and gets less ambitious as the series progresses. So I don't really know what you mean. I think you're being tricked by the epic tactics...
matrix-cat
Member
Even Mass Effect got less and less ambitious with each subsequent game. Fewer planets to visit, world exploration got cut out entirely, choices got homogenised or outright ignored. Even the dialogue choices went out the window; in the first game you had two voice actors and often five different responses to any given line of dialogue. By ME3, Neutral responses were practically gone, there were very few 'Tell me more about that' style prompts, and Shepard started talking without your input half the time.
I don't think we'll never see anything like it again, but it's not going to happen in the big triple A, appeal-to-the-widest-possible-audience, gotta-have-multiplayer-and-famous-voice-actors sphere.
I don't think we'll never see anything like it again, but it's not going to happen in the big triple A, appeal-to-the-widest-possible-audience, gotta-have-multiplayer-and-famous-voice-actors sphere.
The first game was pretty ambitious. With each sequel the scope and complexity of the narrative shrank, and it goes without saying the the games themselves became less complex overall. ME2 was still a good game despite that, but ME3 certainly wasn't.
Quite frankly implying the that the only problem with ME3 was the ending is disingenuous. By and large the game is bad.
Quite frankly implying the that the only problem with ME3 was the ending is disingenuous. By and large the game is bad.
real_slime
Banned
Yeah I think 3 is pretty shit. I like 2 for the party building focus of the story, I was into that. 1 was so long ago I can't remember in as much detail but I do remember thinking it was a bit boring and the gameplay was janked. 3 is the most recent and I was just rolling my eyes at a lot of it.
Been so long now, but it must have chiefly been the story and overall enjoyability. ME2 went granular overboard with the potential decisions just diluting some of the experience. Just didn't seem as memorable. ME3 I couldn't even finish.
Cave Johnson
Member
The first game had a mystery to the universe; made you feel like a small in a vast complex hierarchical structure that invokes a sense of awe and wonder.
Then part 2 came and it became generic-space-marine-saves-the-world/universe cliché; eliminating all the build up from the first game. Did I enjoy it? Yes. But was it ambitious and vast as the OP claimed to be? No. It became your typical storyline about a hero and villian.
After that, part 3 came along. Being one that wanted to finally close the trilogy I was already ready to order when I heard of the infamous tri-ending that was leaked. Nevermind the fact that my disdain for EA grew weary; this kind of bullshit made me lose interest entirely.
Then part 2 came and it became generic-space-marine-saves-the-world/universe cliché; eliminating all the build up from the first game. Did I enjoy it? Yes. But was it ambitious and vast as the OP claimed to be? No. It became your typical storyline about a hero and villian.
After that, part 3 came along. Being one that wanted to finally close the trilogy I was already ready to order when I heard of the infamous tri-ending that was leaked. Nevermind the fact that my disdain for EA grew weary; this kind of bullshit made me lose interest entirely.
Yup.
The great 10 year saga that is Destiny
http://youtu.be/H47ow4_Cmk0
http://youtu.be/H47ow4_Cmk0
I feel like the setup was really ambitious, but it fell apart with ME2 like others already have mentioned. Your choices didn't really matter and the writing wasn't strong enough to make me overlook that fact. The second game was a huge glorified side quest without any real relevance and the ending to the third game... well, we all know how that went.
Depending on how Wild Hunt turns out, Witcher might take the cake. The execution is already leagues better.
Eh, there are some great examples and some really bad ones. Even renegade Shepard is pretty rough.
Depending on how Wild Hunt turns out, Witcher might take the cake. The execution is already leagues better.
Bioware make superior characters. Others have never come even close to this.
Eh, there are some great examples and some really bad ones. Even renegade Shepard is pretty rough.
The Mass Effect series was ambitious *in theory*, meaning the story and the continuation over 3 games. The individual games where anything but ambitious, i remember Mass Effect sounding like a game on the scale of TES in space with multiple planets and huge areas to explore. We got tons of empty terrain and a tiny, tiny citadel in the end.
Angry Fork
Member
Feel this way.
People who shat on the exploration/mako in ME1 make no sense to me. The point of a sequel is to expand on that and fix whatever problems there were (I liked it though). Instead all the whining caused them to take all that stuff out all together and turn it into full TPS. Hated ME2 and didn't play ME3 because I heard it was just more of the same. If the new sequel is more like ME1 and includes exploration on different planets I'll be into it but if it's more corridor shooter shit I don't care.
Fans of this series annoy me too, they're more obsessed with how many aliens you can have relationships with and Sonic-style deviant art obsessions of Tali with a penis under her veil/mask. And Bioware feeds into that, every press release for a new game or DLC or feature is like you can do x and y with these random characters and customize your sexual orientation on a slider and new club mini-game where you get to run a bar and experience night life. Who cares just give me skyrim/fallout 3 style exploration I want to find cool shit and get into fun intricate sidequests. This series should be a kind of open world space RPG not sims dating.
Sentenza
Member
I'm a bit baffled that Mass Effect is what counts as "ambitious" these days, to be completely honest.
Stop giving me hope about that.
TheUnsunghero26
Member
My favourite new IP from last gen, with the first game being my absolute favourite. I still like 2 and 3, but they never captured the same feeling of the first. With the change in publisher and lead writer, it was obvious things had changed. Mass Effect 3 definitely felt like the sequel to Mass Effect 2, but 2 never felt like the follow up to 1. If that makes any sense.
I made a thread about the old builds of ME1, but you really have to wonder how/why it changed so much. Dr.Greg said in an interview that the game was originally going to be closer to the 360's launch, but that obviously never happened.
The idea of creating a vast universe that would rival something like Star Wars, and the ability to transfer your character and his/her choices over to the next game in a trilogy over the course of the Xbox 360's life was incredibly ambitious. I remember people thinking they wouldn't be able to release all 3 before the next Xbox was released.
Turin Turambar
Member
But Mass Effect wasn't particularly ambitious or vast. It was just a normal AAA action/RPG game.
Over the top. Way over the top. Series still has potential, just not as much as the first game suggested.
But the second game is certainly where they started screwing up, big time, so I do see where you're coming from.
I think Cyberpunk 2077 might even be more ambitious than the Witcher 3. Just my thoughts though.
Dude I cannot wait for Cyberpunk 2077! It's my second most anticipated title behind No Man's Sky. Only one word to describe what's been hinted and shown about Cyberpunk so far: EPIC!
Man I need to rewatch the Directors Cut. It's been a good few years since I've seen it. One of my favorite films of all time.
Sentenza
Member
That's flavor, lore, background noise, for me.
A RPG where you have virtually no interaction with the scenario, very limited interaction with secondary characters, quests that are mostly self-contained and hardly interact one with each other, a lot of repeated content and maps which are mostly linear corriodors with chest-high walls to mark the battle spots is not really something that fits my idea of "incredibly ambitious".
If you want to know what "incredibly ambitious" feels like, go back 22 years and see what Ultima VII/Serpent Isle achieved at the time.
wolfhowwl
Banned
I guess the idea of having the save import carrying choices across games could be ambitious but their execution was at best decent and at worst insulting (rachni queen comes to mind).
It ended up feeling that it was an excuse to cover pushing off consequences to the "next game" until their house of cards came crashing down.
It ended up feeling that it was an excuse to cover pushing off consequences to the "next game" until their house of cards came crashing down.
Sentenza
Member
And variety. Let's not forget variety.
Unlike with Mass Effect games, very few quests and fights in the Baldur's Gate games felt like doing the same thing over and over.
Shadows of Amn is still the best damn sequel ever made. Nothing even comes close. Improved on an already top of the line experience in every conceivable way. I still have my install discs. I break them out every now and again.
gollumsluvslave
Member
I suppose there are some aspects that need to be considered to determine what 'ambitious' and 'vast' means.
Story / Narrative - epic, interwoven with consequences for your actions?
Worldbuilding - a huge, cohesive setting for the game.
Lore - backstories, races, 'window dressing' NPC stories etc?
Personally, just getting to the end of FINALLY completing Dark Souls, I think the scale of it's achievement in COHESIVE WORLDBUILIDNG is far more vast and ambitious than any of the Mass Effect games. The Dark Souls world is huge, beautifully structured and just fits,and the further into the game you get the more amazing and solid it feels. Just an incredible achievement by From. Many of the NPS quests in Dark Souls had just as many impacts on the game world as anything in ME.
Sure the original vision for the Mass Effect trilogy was insanely ambitious, but the execution of that vision really fell off the rails for parts 2 and 3 IMO. (sure ME1 has some pretty big flaws, but it really felt like it realised the lofty claims the developers mad,whilst with some exceptions2 and 3 did not and focussed more on the shootbang side.
So I will really be interested to see what From manage to achieve with Bloodbourne.
Story / Narrative - epic, interwoven with consequences for your actions?
Worldbuilding - a huge, cohesive setting for the game.
Lore - backstories, races, 'window dressing' NPC stories etc?
Personally, just getting to the end of FINALLY completing Dark Souls, I think the scale of it's achievement in COHESIVE WORLDBUILIDNG is far more vast and ambitious than any of the Mass Effect games. The Dark Souls world is huge, beautifully structured and just fits,and the further into the game you get the more amazing and solid it feels. Just an incredible achievement by From. Many of the NPS quests in Dark Souls had just as many impacts on the game world as anything in ME.
Sure the original vision for the Mass Effect trilogy was insanely ambitious, but the execution of that vision really fell off the rails for parts 2 and 3 IMO. (sure ME1 has some pretty big flaws, but it really felt like it realised the lofty claims the developers mad,whilst with some exceptions2 and 3 did not and focussed more on the shootbang side.
So I will really be interested to see what From manage to achieve with Bloodbourne.
BrassDragon
Member
This is correct. That game promised a future that never came and now it's part of a past that increasingly few remember.
Cyber Caesar
Member
If Red Dead Redemption had a continuation in the form of a related sequel it would top the Mass Effect Trilogy. Since there is no sequel, no Mass Effect has no rivals.
Pretty much.
Yeah, same here. Maybe if they had developed the first one concepts further (i.e., each planet explorable for example), but after the second one it basically became corridors in space. ME3 was a little better in that regard, but meh.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Amen! The Baldur's Gate series is just ridiculous in terms of vastness and ambition. BG2 alone has such a huge amount of side quests, choices & consequences.
I'd love a new Infinity Engine game! That said,even Kotor and Kotor II on balance though probably not as ambitious and vast in vision as Mass Effect still feel 'bigger' to me in some ways, and I would not have said this at the end of the first Mass Effect.
I think if Bioware were honest they would admit that they probably mad their life much harder by 2 aspects of Mass Effect 1:-
1. Saren as the Protagonist. Outstanding villain, and his absence was a huge void in both ME2 and ME3
2. Epic conclusion. The end game of Mass Effect 1 was just so well done in terms of the whole 'Shepherd saves the world' thing, they had no room to raise the bar - in effect they shot their load too early.
Wouldn't call Mass effect ambitious but it had an extreme amount of potential. They could had expanded the loot system, make space exploration in veins of elder scrolls, huge space cities and many more stuff. The series had the most potential out of any series in previous generation in my opinion. But all that potential got thrown in the garbage bin with Mass Effect 2 which instead of expanding the universe made it smaller and more of a shooter than a real rpg, shame for real we could have gotten something great.
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