alexandros
Banned
I'm sure Microsoft thought the same about Vista.
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Windows 8 Gaming Performance (benchmarks inside)
- Thread starter mik83kuu
- Start date
Giant Bomb actually did a Quicklook of Windows 8 
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-windows-8/17-6462/
It looks so counter-productive on a desktop.
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-windows-8/17-6462/
It looks so counter-productive on a desktop.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Why?
Or do you mean by the time SP1 rolls out and they make Metro entirely optional and add back the start menu?
If so yeah, that might get me to reconsider, otherwise nah, I've seen nothing about 8 that makes it a must have by any stretch.
The Gabe part was obviously a joke in that Steam and him have a quasi religious status on this board unlike pretty much any other person place or thing.
The level of "dialogue" is a lot more exaggerated generally in the Gaming section of this forum than in the OT.
Not wanting windows 8 for whatever reason is fine, but I think a 1% drop in performance on a card in a new OS is pretty normal and will be easily rectified with driver revisions.
I'll get it mostly as I like to try new OS's and that it is 40 bucks, maybe it will wow me to drop my android phone and tablets and move over to windows 8
(no chance)
br0ken_shad0w
Member
It's wanting to get justification (from both sides). They need to make sure they made the right decision.
I don't like the Metro UI and that's that. But I'm not going into whether the changes are better or not because my preferences are subjective.
Why? There is no practical reason to upgrade.
darkpaladinmfc
Member
I was going to install W8 over W7 because I thought I'd probably upgrade eventually, so I might as well do it earlier, but I put W8 on a separate partition first and I can say for sure I'm skipping W8 now :/.
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
Giant Bomb actually did a Quicklook of Windows 8
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-windows-8/17-6462/
It looks so counter-productive on a desktop.
Which is amazing because they were very positive when they gave that quicklook and even more so this week on their podcast. People using Windows 8 metro have no problem after becoming acquainted with it. People who refuse to use metro seem very comfortable with the desktop and the new start screen. People who choose to watch videos and marvel at how different metro is from the desktop seem to have the hardest time with Windows 8 I understand it can look confusing to some but willingly learning a tool to become effective with it is all it takes to realize the effectiveness of the tool. If a new tool worked exactly like the old tool then you would not reap any benefits from the new tool. The redefinition of a new tool may break older conventions in a paradigm shift to bring about new usage opportunities not possible with the old tool. If you dont want to use Windows 8 and want to stick with Windows 7 then thats fine too but the argument that Windows 8 looks like it doesnt work well there it wont work well is tired. People who are using it are already finding benefits and thats just on older hardware. Newer hardware and interfaces will bring about even more flexibility. To reject that simply because you dont want to change is cheating yourself.
Wiktor
Member
Steam is attempt to create effectivelyt 3rd party walled garden inside Windows. Games DD already is dominated by it and with software it will be even worse, as non-gaming software has much weaker presence in retail and companies making them lack money to create services tha could compete with Valve. Essentially Gabe's goal is to make Steam the only profitable way devs can sell their software
Second, it's hopelessly tying your software to Steam. Now you can have multiple installations on multiple machines. But not with Steam. Everything you buy will have to be ran through Steam, through your own singular account. And good luck trying to sell anything you buy through it.
Not to mention Steam UI and technical polish suck, so idea to run most software through it is terrible and makes Metro look like ideally suited for desktop in comparision
Bassicaly, Steam is terribly restrictive and robs users of their freedom. It's also clunky and yet wants to become the main way to buy and run software.
Since we can't predict the future, the information we have today is incomplete. Since the information we have is incomplete, you cannot make an argument from pure reason. You need to start looking at fuzzier things like faith, trust and track record. Valve deservedly has a lot of faith and trust, while Microsoft deservedly does not. It's that simple.
... no?
Yes, and Windows RT has a network effect on Windows 8.
It really doesn't. There are several games on Steam that are completely DRM-free.
What?
Wiktor
Member
You mean you can run them without Steam? Which ones?
No one is going to skip the OS based on the performance alone, however it's an important factor when changing OS for a gamer. Like, Vista on launch was a performance disaster and it took months before we saw proper multi-GPU support. Windows 8 is well within acceptable range and I'm not sure why people keep thinking anyone's arguing its a problem. Maybe my initial post gave them the wrong impression, however that post covers a lot more than that underneath.
Personally, first and foremost my concern is gaming performance - I don't accept performance drops, simple as. Windows 8 is acceptable, as mentioned. HOWEVER the argument comes in when you start looking at performance and then the new features. So Windows 8 will offer me the exact same performance as Windows 7, good. Now you also need incentives to upgrade. The primary pull is Metro which I'm not particularly fond of. OS performance increases will be minimal at best on a high-end machine with Windows 7 and an SSD and static benchmark app increases are completely useless to me. So basically I will be doing a lateral move to an OS that's going to cause me a lot of headaches due to learning a new interface - Then I can go to to work and then still have to work with every Windows server under the sun based on the 'old' interface, plus Windows XP and 7 on desktops and then back home to my tablet OS - I find that seriously annoyed as your workflow is based 'fingertip memory', it hampers your workflow.
So had gaming performance been 10-15% over 7 I would have been in awe, upgraded straight away and accepted whatever annoying quirks it might have. However it provides me with exactly 0 incentive to upgrade, not a damn thing yet it's like a complete taboo to say you are skipping an OS and sticking with an 'older' version? Some people don't want random change for the sake it, some people don't want a new workflow for the sake of it, some people don't want to go through the hassle of installing a new OS, some people don't want to just throw money at something that provides them with no personal benefit ( I have Dreamspark, so that doesn't include me ) and some people have an OS that's fast, working and lets them do everything they need.
So unless, as mentioned, they patch in a start menu and make Metro optional I'm personally sticking with Windows 7.
They are both corporations who could not give a shit about anything but the bottom line. Valve just presents that better because they only need to be concerned with their DD service wheras Microsoft has a "little" more on their plate to take into account.
Windows 8 can have a direct impact on Steam with an integrated store, that is Gabe's beef. He is right to be alarmed but he is a smart guy and will come out ahead
I use Microsoft exponentially more in my life that any product of Valve. Thankfully I can use both
That's new to me, which ones? You mean the F2P and MMO titles?
edit: tried running Tribes I downloaded off Steam without Steam, nope!
What exactly is a 'network' effect and how is RT exerting it on 8?
Machinarium, Noitu Love 2 Devolution, Inside a Star-Filled Sky...
There's actually a bunch of them.
Hm, I realize it's not exactly a network effect. It's more like if developers want to get an application onto Windows RT, they must publish through the Windows store and also for Windows 8. There's no such thing going on with Steam.
Logic. In a windows 8 thread? Is this real life?
alexandros
Banned
The issues you mentioned are mostly valid, but they read more like a description of 3rd-party distribution systems in general. I totally get why someone would be opposed to them. However, you explained why most digital storefronts are restrictive in general, not why Steam is as bad as Windows 8 in regards to the grievances some people have with the OS.
As I mentioned earlier, some people (me included) seem to have two main problems with Windows 8: The forced Metro interface/platform and the fact that Metro apps can only be sold through the Windows Store. If Metro was optional and the Windows Store wasn't the only place to get Metro apps, I would be totally ok with the new OS and I'm guessing most of the people who don't like it now would feel the same way.
Compared to Windows 8, Steam does not have the same issues. It doesn't force the new UI to users and it doesn't force people to buy steamworks games from Steam.
So I ask again: Taking into account the two specific complaints that some people have over Windows 8, how is Steam as bad as Windows 8?
There are plenty (mainly indie) games with no DRM whatsoever. I just tried Gemini Rue, worked fine outside of Steam.
Wiktor
Member
It does force it's UI. I can't get a steamworks game and not use Steam. Even if I buy a retail copy.
Gabe's goal is to create something as close to closed system as 3rd party can and the only reason he complains about Windows 8 is that it will be directly competting with his store.
That isn't Steam forcing its UI, that is developers choosing to use the Steam UI.
Games bought from the Humble Store often have both DRM-free and and Steamworks editions. Of course, Steamworks often adds features you'd never be able to get in DRM-free games.
How is that different from developers choosing to use the Metro UI?
Well the *Steamworkes* version of the Humble Indie games that work from within the Steam UI aren't DRM-free (as Steam is DRM). It's the non Steam DRM free exes that are DRM-free and don't work off the Steam UI and work directly off the 'desktop'. The identical example would be if an Indie developer decided to publish in Metro and also provide a DRM free version of the game that's installed on the desktop and there's nothing preventing that.
I'm really not seeing the difference. Developer's aren't forced to use Steam but can choose to and that's the only way to work off the Steam UI, Developers aren't forced to use the Metro app store, but can choose to and that's the only way to work off the Metro UI.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
If desktop users don't buy Windows 8, then Windows 9 will be desktop focussed and Windows-not-metro-anymore will remain the province of devices where it makes sense; those with touchscreens.
Microsoft aren't retarded. If their consumers don't buy what they're selling, they change to what they do want to buy.
Having different versions of Windows being supported concurrently targetted for different platforms is ntohing new; it's more unusual that they've gone with a one-size-fits-all approach than that they didn't.
Developers are if they want to target Windows RT. You can't shut your ears and say la-la-la and ignore Windows RT, even if you never plan to use it yourself.
TouchMyBox
Member
Steam Big Picture mode is what you're actually waiting for.
Not really. Will was hating on the OS and the best Jeff Gerstmann can say is "Well, it's only $40." And they were all in agreement that Metro is a feature that's been brute forced into the OS, and is wonky because of that.
Also Metro is a shitty substitute for the start menu. I hate this excuse. "Less clicks!" Yes but it displays just as much (or less) information while blocking out your entire desktop. So maybe a couple less clicks is good for someone with chronic joint pain, but then they still have to hit a key to go back into the desktop so I don't know.
What record is that?
TouchMyBox
Member
Giant Bomb actually did a Quicklook of Windows 8
http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-windows-8/17-6462/
It looks so counter-productive on a desktop.
It's like they had a team of people who've never used a computer or seen anybody use a computer before, and gave them a bunch of textbooks about operating systems for desktops and mobile, and had them construct an OS.
I really don't believe that anybody who thinks that fullscreen solitaire is a good idea has ever seen a human use a computer before, solitaire is the window you have open behind your excel window which you switch to when your boss isn't looking.
Why must I have all of these apps and widgets with fancy animations which I'm never going to use taking up system resources? Why do I want to install an app on my desktop for every website I visit?
Good thing there is normal solitaire you can install on desktop then. You don't have to use metro apps.
TouchMyBox
Member
I would assume that every function of a PC would be able to be replaced with a superior alternative, but everything I've seen thus far of windows 8 is just a bunch of stuff that most people would want to disable or install alternatives to. When people ask me about windows 8, the only benefit I can come up with is that it boots 4 seconds quicker.
Bl4ckSunsh1n3
Member
All stupidity aside, I'm not upgrading to Windows 8 until I'm forced to. The reason is that I'm happy with 7. As long as 7 has nothing that can harm me that is fixed only 8, or some other nefarious thing, I don't need another reason outside of that.
Well that and I never move to a new Windows version until after the first SP releases.
Well that and I never move to a new Windows version until after the first SP releases.
It's a little more nuanced than that. Windows 8 makes using a PC more versatile. You could have a transforming laptop/tablet that you can use when you're out and about, then get on on plane and use the laptop mode. Then when you get to your home or office you can dock it and use with a large screen. All one device, for any of your needs. And in each case you'll probably use it differently. Tablet All metro.. Laptop, a bit of both. Dock at office, just the desktop.
I can't see this being a problem at all. I use it almost the same as I used my win7 PC. Except, with dual screens, Win8 is far superior.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Yes, this definitely sounds like real world usage and not a marketing fantasy.
Treefingers
Member
Windows 8 tagline - "You don't have to use it"
I don't see a problem adding diverse functionality into a product. Especially when it doesn't even affect how the products was originally used.
I think I see where the mindset of this thread is.
The entire point is that it does. That's the issue with removing the start screen...
Instead of a fly out menu, it's a full screen interface. That's it.
But it's not removed.... they just made it bigger :\
It's still in the bottom left corner.
It still says Start when I mouse over it.
Pushing Windows key still makes it pop up like on 98/XP/Vista/7.
You can have a problem with the Metro UI. Big buttons, garish colors, whatever.
But don't say things that aren't true.
JonathanPower
Member
They should have used the metro UI only for tablets, and the normal desktop interface for desktop computers.
Treefingers
Member
That makes too much sense
Well Developers who want to target SteamWorks have to use Steam. Developers who want to target iOS have to use the App Store. I'm not seeing the difference. It's an option.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
But then you wouldn't be able to live blog that secret vampire weekend gig on your tablet, before hopping on a plane to San Francisco, putting your transforming device into laptop mode and using Bing to find a restaurant for the evening, as you drive in your MS Automotive Mustang streaming music from the cloud through your zune to arrive home, dock your transforming device into desktop mode, and check facebook while you skype your brazilian supermodel girlfriend to make sure her Kinect is setup so that you can videoconference before you head out.
One device. All Purposes. Windows 8. Be all you can be.
Apple and Microsoft and Google are all moving in this direction. *shrug*.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/25/os-x-mountain-lion-review/
http://www.techradar.com/news/softw...id-and-chrome-os-will-slowly-converge-1082683
I hope that is true, but MS seems to be betting the farm on this.
They know this is the only way they can hope to compete with iOS and Android on tablets, which is a segment that will continue to grow tremendously. I see it like with Xbox Live, which is the only online service which costs money yet it still succeded. They will not give up easily and I don't see them changing their minds anytime soon.