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[Denton]

Not sure if posted already, but this is an article that should be read:

http://www.*****************/2015/0...des-is-often-misleading-and-always-obnoxious/

(dualshockers, so replace the stars)

One of the quest designers:

The idea that any developer would intentionally sabotage the PC version to sell more console editions is crazy. Especially when you are talking about a company that offers free DLC, rejects retailer and console specific pre-order bonuses, rejects DRM, refuses to include in-game pre-order bonuses or console specific content, etc. So, we do all that, meanwhile we burn the PC version just to sell more on the PS4? What, why? It's ludicrous.

EDIT: I don't know about the specifics of the Watch Dogs situation, but it sounds like a similar situation. They crammed all the visual stuff they *wanted* into some trailers and had to cut some of it for time and optimization. Now, it may be that when they put that stuff in they knew a bunch of it wouldn't see release, but that's not the same thing as intentionally sabotaging a SKU because of a vague corporate conspiracy.

All the places that have loading screens are because they are hundreds of miles apart, it's a lore consideration, not a technical one. We could have easily put Skellige and Novigrad/Velen (which are one map) into the same map, but we assumed you guys wouldn't want to spend three days sailing over open ocean.

EDIT: There's also another big open world location that I won't reveal for spoilers, though it's in half the previews, and a couple of special locations that aren't part of the open world. But there are, effectively, no loading screens in our open world. All our interiors, caves, cities, every farm, crypt, mansion, temple, it's all in one map with no loading screens. From inside the houses you can look out the windows and see the people in the market square running around.

 

[ryanthelion123]

I don't like the fact that when you go to their website you are greeted by an image of Witcher 3 pre-downgrade.

http://en.cdprojektred.com/


I'm starting to think that this maybe still be possible somehow. They are still using these images and are still denying a downgrade. Maybe we are in for a surprise.

 

[EatChildren]

the desaturated sharpening 3: wild hunt

 

[Tagyhag]

Thing is, the console versions look better than I expected them to even when I was thought that these trailers were 1:1 with the PC Ultra settings. I'm not sure that blaming the consoles for the changes is a logical conclusion when they're holding up better than many thought.

The console version looking better than expected doesn't take away from the fact that they were the lowest common denominator.

It's understandable that RED wouldn't make the PC version head and shoulders above the console versions due to a multitude of reasons.

It's still a damn shame.

 

[Yasae]

Or they keep doing it because the biggest complainers on this issue are a massive minority.

Well you're right. I'm sure this issue will only get better, developers will only get more honest. What's that? The Division has been delayed to 2016? It'll be over 30 months since we first saw gameplay? Oopsie! Looks like that theory of yours is dead in the water. Hence we'll get more threads like these, with more and more and more bitching. Oh, my friend, these are around to stay and propagate. They will not get better of their own volition. Devs only care if it affects sales - which it has, just not more than hyping the game two years out. Purely cost/benefit.

But the devs aren't to blame. They didn't show things barely off the ground. Oh wait, they did. But the consumers overreacted to their ridiculously early showings! It's all the people's/I] fault!

You know what? All marketing is bullshit until proven otherwise. Consumers know this. But then to go and say essentially "It's not BS, buy the game and see for yourself" is a response that should be laughed out of the theatre. The sales are already good, with good projections they already made their dough back. This wild minority of gamers just needs to be appeased. Right?

Consumers don't want to fucking see the game two years early. A dev needs preorders two years early, they need interest two years early. Whether to show the game or not is never a choice of the consumer. There haven't been surveys proclaiming loudly that early likely-won't-be-in-the-game footage is desirable. And even if there had been, that's still the wrong decision because it still involves marketing things which will change enormously. They're forced to market a fairy tale because..... Well, they need the money and that's what they have to show at the time. It's true. You think this shit happened left and right two gens ago? Of course not. Now we're getting to the breaking point on budgets and this is how things have to work - hence the console cash, hence the crazy prototype trailers.

If you were a dev and had the luxury of not having to show your game early when you weren't sure about its details, what decision would you make? How would you present it? Or would you present it at all?

 

[Fredrik]

I think it is a fair assessment to make that if the Witcher 2 model was tried with Witcher 3, it would not have been greenlighted for development on a PC only userbase.

To say that there are technical issues on PC because of consoles is also ridiculous i think. A bad conclusion to make considering there is no basis for that claim.

The graphics were downscaled in comparison to the trailers, i don't think anyone can make a claim to anything besides that.

I fully understand being disappointed by being hyped for a product in trailers and not getting that thing you were sold by the trailers.

But the reality of development i think is such that i think your anger should be more towards CDPROJECT RED saying they did not have to sacrifice anything during development, lying about that then doing what they had to do.

If CDPROJECTRED had been fully upfront about downgrades instead of doing this bizarre dance of "we didn't downgrade anything", "we're not going to show ultra until the game is out" thing, there would be no real leg for the complaints i think.

Sorry if this has already been asked, but has it been shown with Ultra setting now? Or are all these downgrade shots from the PS4 version and people just assuming the PC version on Ultra will look the same?

Edit: Just saw the video in the OP

 

[Totobeni]

What is another logical conclusion?

CDPR going for parity maybe? CDPR saying models and textures are the same for all versions (install size the same too which confirm CDPR not even using better textures for PC), then people seeing some hidden and locked options (like what Ubi did for Watch Dog) in this too all hint for that I think.

my guess here is that CDPR thought making one version way better than the other will make console people not buy their game so they pulled a ubi soft and went for a full downgrade.

 

[viveks86]

the desaturated sharpening 3: wild hunt

And here I was thinking you are decoding all the shader files and making us some sexy new foliage for launch.

 

[RoboPlato]

The console version looking better than expected doesn't take away from the fact that they were the lowest common denominator.

It's understandable that RED wouldn't make the PC version head and shoulders above the console versions due to a multitude of reasons.

It's still a damn shame.

Plenty of games from PC focused devs look head and shoulders above the console versions. Take the Crysis games for example.

 

[Tagyhag]

Plenty of games from PC focused devs look head and shoulders above the console versions. Take the Crysis games for example.

Sure, but the difference wasn't night and day. It is with this game.

 

[Easy_D]

the desaturated sharpening 3: wild hunt

Now add a slight green puke tinge and we're good to go

 

[EatChildren]

And here I was thinking you are decoding all the shader files and making us some sexy new foliage for launch.

I wish.

Sorry if this has already been asked, but has it been shown with Ultra setting now? Or are all these downgrade shots from the PS4 version and people just assuming the PC version on Ultra will look the same?

Nobody knows for sure but the assumption is that yes Ultra has been shown, much of the discussion muddied by CDPR's weird statements regarding Ultra settings and media apparently being on High + Ultra.

At the recent YouTuber event people had access to PC builds and were maxing out the settings on what was described as Ultra, including Hairworks. CDPR media has been unanimously of the PC build until only very recently (all review footage is PS4), including 4K screenshots and downsampled screenshots.

So while CDPR is yet to outright say "THIS SHOT IS ULTRA MAXIMUM EVERYTHING", it's a safe bet that we've seen Ultra settings screenshots for some time now.

 

[Kintaro]

my guess here is that CDPR thought making one version way better than the other will make console people not buy their game so they pulled a ubi soft and went for a full downgrade.

I wonder what may happen if console sales prove soft and PC fans end up pissed off. Where will they go from there? They touted 1,000,000 preorders. Nice number. That's not 1,000,000 sales though. We'll see.

Either way, I got a downgraded game for a downgraded price (code from video card purchase) so CDPR can fuck off with their pricing shit too. Hope this lives up to the hype though. Most every game scoring 9s and 10s lately have been a let down. =/

 

[Zoidberg]

the desaturated sharpening 3: wild hunt

I prefer this to be honest. There's something not quite right about the new colour scheme/artstyle they've gone with.

 

[Renekton]

If they had opted to do it the same way as TW2, there wouldn't be anywhere near as many issues.

Unless you're an experienced developer, we don't know how many additional man-days is required to maintain and QA a separate build path.

Consoles holding us back, yet again. If anyone believes that better visuals don't add to the experience or atmosphere (I say this, because it's generally the next thing someone replies back with) then they may as well remove most of the effects and visual improvements that make the game world look and feel better.

Do bear in mind the minimum PC requirements for the "downgraded" version. We might as well say i5-2500 + GTX660 is holding us back.

 

[RoboPlato]

Sure, but the difference wasn't night and day. It is with this game.

They've showed a huge focus on PC with this game, to the point where many people were expecting the console versions to be in bad shape with how long they waited to show them. Even stuff like Battlefield which has most of it's prerelease marketing materials be on PC despite a large console audience, shows a very marked visual improvement between platforms. BF3 was basically a benchmark in PC visuals for a while and was heavily marketed as such. The difference between that and the console versions was huge.

Many people are quick to blame consoles when the reality is likely more complex than that.

 

[viveks86]

Do bear in mind the minimum PC requirements for the "downgraded" version. We might as well say i5-2500 + GTX660 is holding us back.

Good point!

 

[Coflash]

I think it is a fair assessment to make that if the Witcher 2 model was tried with Witcher 3, it would not have been greenlighted for development on a PC only userbase.

Why?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=586441

According to that and many other articles, the game didn't cost much to make. Let's say now, in 2015, that cost doubled. That's still not much for a AAA game spread across 3 platforms.

1.5 million sales by 2011, for a niche PC only game that was never heavily marketed. That's not bad, especially when you consider that TW1 came out in 2007 with loads of bugs and DD platforms weren't as popular. Who knows how many copies they've sold since then. They've always profited from their PC games.

I don't expect my words to carry much weight on a forum that is clearly console dominated, but please, don't try and use that sort of logic when it's been proven time and again that they've done quite well with their PC games.

But would they have had as much potential revenue to risk making a massive open world game? Consoles are holding PC games back technically, sure, but they are making things possible financially by simply expanding market reach. To suggest that they are deadweight is missing the big picture.

I didn't suggest that, and expanding market reach has nothing to do with it if it was to come to consoles later anyway, the only difference being that there wouldn't be any parity and all platforms would be given the attention they deserve.

I don't see how anyone can argue this when TW2 already demonstrated quite successfully how it's able to work.

You asked why there's a distaste for consoles when it comes to downgrades, and you don't have to agree with it, but there it is.

 

[Sanctuary]

Not sure if posted already, but this is an article that should be read:

http://www.*****************/2015/0...des-is-often-misleading-and-always-obnoxious/

(dualshockers, so replace the stars)

One of the quest designers:

Eh, who truly thought the PC version was intentionally sabotaged to sell more console copies? Uh, no one with any rational thought. The argument is that the PC version was downgraded simply because they were not going to make multiple versions of the same game, and there was no financial reason for them to make higher assets for the PC version when the two consoles wouldn't be able to put them to use. Not in a game this large.

And holy shit is that article disingenuous. CDPR PR is really working it overtime. The guy really thinks he's going to pull a jedi mind trick.

 

[Momentary]

If they improved the scale-ability of the game nothing would have been held back. But that eould probably have required a different set of assets that they didn't have the manpower to finish... since it looked like they had started those assets to begin with, but didn't follow throw after realizing how limuted the consoles were. Or they could have target the 660 the entire time only to not realize how daunting of a task they until after starting those higher assets.

Makes you realize that Cyberpunk 2077 is not going to look out of this world unless they get enough success from this game to allow them to make assets for both current technology and older tech.

I think this was a manpower and money issue on their end as a developer.

Off topic: Still the the PC platform will outsell the PS4 and the X1 separately. Kinds of funny how Console platforms ban together to inflate numbers againt PC numbers. Just throwing that out there.

 

[m_shortpants]

Currently playing Witcher 2 at 2880x1620, maxed out.

Hope I'm not setting myself up for disappointment here lol.

 

[RoboPlato]

Eh, who truly thought the PC version was intentionally sabotaged to sell more console copies? Uh, no one with any rational thought. The argument is that the PC version was downgraded simply because they were not going to make multiple versions of the same game, and there was no financial reason for them to make higher assets for the PC version when the two consoles wouldn't be able to put them to use. Not in a game this large.

Part of it could simply also be that the vertical slice segments put together for the trailer with high quality assets couldn't perform well on a large scale no matter the platform. I know many are quick to blame consoles for things like the removal of SVOGI from UE4 but that effect also used nearly half the resources of a 680 to get it working at 30fps so it was impractical for most PCs as well. The newer GI solutions getting put into the engine are coming from console focused developers.

If they improved the scale-ability of the game nothing would have been held back. But that eould probably have required a different set of assets that they didn't have the manpower to finish... since it looked like they had started those assets to begin with, but didn't follow throw after realizing how limuted the consoles were. Or they could have target the 660 the entire time only to not realize how daunting of a task they until after starting those higher assets.

Makes you realize that Cyberpunk 2077 is not going to look out of this world unless they get enough success from this game to allow them to make assets for both current technology and older tech.

If Cyberpunk is on a smaller scale than this game, which I expect it to given that it takes place in a single city versus a whole countryside, it'll probably look a good deal better than Witcher 3 on all platforms.

 

[Coflash]

Do bear in mind the minimum PC requirements for the "downgraded" version. We might as well say i5-2500 + GTX660 is holding us back.

Actually, I would, if every other version had to conform to these specs in any meaningful way.

If people didn't have problems with downgrades, there wouldn't be hundreds/thousands/millions of posts on the matter every time something doesn't meet the initial expectation. The expectation, by the way (in the case of CDPR and Ubisoft), that was only able to remain because the developers promised there hadn't been a downgrade.

They've done this to themselves.

 

[mjontrix]

CDPR going for parity maybe? CDPR saying models and textures are the same for all versions (install size the same too which confirm CDPR not even using better textures for PC), then people seeing some hidden and locked options (like what Ubi did for Watch Dog) in this too all hint for that I think.

my guess here is that CDPR thought making one version way better than the other will make console people not buy their game so they pulled a ubi soft and went for a full downgrade.

Ding!

Probably didn't want to stretch the budget for making different builds - from a financial position you're still going to make about the same whether or not you add the fancy graphics- the loss of goodwill doesn't matter since gamers will just buy it anyways.

 

[Fiercedeity]

Eh, who truly thought the PC version was intentionally sabotaged to sell more console copies? Uh, no one with any rational thought. The argument is that the PC version was downgraded simply because they were not going to make multiple versions of the same game, and there was no financial reason for them to make higher assets for the PC version when the two consoles wouldn't be able

Isn't it the same thing?

 

[Momentary]

Isn't it the same thing?

Doing it because you just don't have the people, time, and money and doing it because you're trying to appease two console companies is different.

 

[viveks86]

I didn't suggest that, and expanding market reach has nothing to do with it if it was to come to consoles later anyway, the only difference being that there wouldn't be any parity and all platforms would be given the attention they deserve.

Neither of us know what it takes to build two specifically optimized versions in sequence. May be it wasn't profitable enough for their previous games? Isn't it presumptuous to conclude such things with absolutely no visibility to their boardroom, ambitions or bank accounts?

I don't see how anyone can argue this when TW2 already demonstrated quite successfully how it's able to work.

For the gamer, sure. We have no idea if it worked well for the dev. If it worked well for them, they would've continued down the same path. May be it wasn't all that rosy behind the scenes. Or may be they just got greedy. Both are equally possible.

You asked why there's a distaste for consoles when it comes to downgrades, and you don't have to agree with it, but there it is.

Oh I know why there's a distaste. I just don't understand it. It seems short sighted and selfish. And we can agree to disagree on that. I'm playing the game on PC too, but I don't feel like blaming consoles for any downgrades. My choices at launch would be to either to accept it as the realities of development or blame CDPR. Or both, given that they have categorically denied all claims.

 

[Phreak47]

It's just reality at this point. It's prohibitively expensive for a lot of devs to make separate versions of games for the consoles and pc. It really is a damned shame though. I thought CDPR were going to continue to be the champion of pc players and put them first, but it looks like they're just trying to provide the best experience for everyone in a more populist fashion. Disappointing, but I'm not enough of a pc elitist to say that I'd want the consoles to get a bad experience at the expense of pc. Still, I really hope a pc-centric dev comes along that can really push the hardware to the max without having to worry about the consoles.

Well, at least Project Cars is an example of "PC First" and the consoles aren't too awfully behind.

I'm going to play the living fuck out of the PS4 version though.

 

[Sanctuary]

Isn't it the same thing?

No, it's not the same thing at all. They didn't sabotage the PC version just to make the console copies look more desireable. There never was a "PC version" in the first place aside from their initial work prior to knowing anything concrete about the power of the next-gen consoles. Once they found out, they had to decide between continuing with two different versions of the same game, or just scrap their initial vision and have all of the versions be nearly the same. For as large as the game is, it's pretty obvious why they did what they did.

Honestly, the color saturation is a huge downgrade IMO alone. The game just looks silly now, and that desaturated picture above is a vast improvement.

 

[Coflash]

Neither of us know what it takes to build two specifically optimized versions in sequence. May be it wasn't profitable enough for their previous games? Isn't it presumptuous to conclude such things with absolutely no visibility to their boardroom, ambitions or bank accounts?

Isn't it presumptuous to conclude anything at any time on any subject of game development when you don't have any visibility of their boardroom, ambitions or bank accounts?

You might as well close 90% of the threads here.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Now we're getting to the breaking point on budgets and this is how things have to work - hence the console cash, hence the crazy prototype trailers.

If you were a dev and had the luxury of not having to show your game early when you weren't sure about its details, what decision would you make? How would you present it? Or would you present it at all?

Eventually there is going to be a budget breaking point that determines the fate of the developer. A lot of people seem to be convinced millions of sales = stability. If the previous generation could not sustain games like Bioshock: Infinite and tomb raider: R with "millions of sales", what makes them think this problem will go away especially in light of the escalating budget even among mid-tier developers like CDPR?

To flirt with the expectation of garnering pre-orders is never a good thing, ever. You can cheat them into buying your game but it's a whole different ballpark when the final product is tested through fire. Expectations lowered will not guarantee a resounding success in the sequel (See AC UNITY and their compensation for a free NEW title to quell their backlash).

Now it's about maintaining the integrity of your studios name rather than the sales it needs to facilitate. Toying with consumers expectations by building a flimsy tower is going to hit them harder as it falls. It's only matter of time before others fall into the same situation unless they are willing to adapt. Once upon a time review outlets were the one and defining voice for game reviews/previews, now the opposite is happening in light of independent startups to influence the gaming landscape. Do you really believe the gaming industry itself is immune to such change?

 

[Momentary]

Honestly, the color saturation is a huge downgrade IMO alone. The game just looks silly now, and that desaturated picture above is a vast improvement.

Game looks clownish now and really takes away from that dark fantasy setting I was longing for from this universe. I'm sure there will be a why to dial back the saturation somehow.

 

[Renekton]

Actually, I would, if every other version had to conform to these specs in any meaningful way.

Hmm good point. It now rests on DF's report with the famous i3/750Ti console equalizer.

If people didn't have problems with downgrades, there wouldn't be hundreds/thousands/millions of posts on the matter every time something doesn't meet the initial expectation.

Reality check. We're grossly overestimating the vocal minority and the number of people even cognizant of this comparison. In terms of effects on sales, this is unlikely to be even a minor factor. If anything, maybe the early promo drew 100x more new customers than it lost from resulting Downgate.

 

[viveks86]

Isn't it presumptuous to conclude anything at any time on any subject of game development when you don't have any visibility of their boardroom, ambitions or bank accounts?

You might as well close 90% of the threads here.

It is presumptuous, but that's ok. Are you saying the whole point of threads is to come to conclusions and should be closed if conclusions can't be made? I'm mostly here just to talk to people and share ideas.

 

[Sanctuary]

Do you really believe the gaming industry itself is immune to such change?

Atari sure doesn't.

 

[Fredrik]

I wish.



Nobody knows for sure but the assumption is that yes Ultra has been shown, much of the discussion muddied by CDPR's weird statements regarding Ultra settings and media apparently being on High + Ultra.

At the recent YouTuber event people had access to PC builds and were maxing out the settings on what was described as Ultra, including Hairworks. CDPR media has been unanimously of the PC build until only very recently (all review footage is PS4), including 4K screenshots and downsampled screenshots.

So while CDPR is yet to outright say "THIS SHOT IS ULTRA MAXIMUM EVERYTHING", it's a safe bet that we've seen Ultra settings screenshots for some time now.

Yeah sorry I saw the video in the OP minutes after posting where he said he had it set to 1080p ultra. The game still looked fantastic though so I can't quite understand the outrage to be honest. But I'm more of a framerate nut than graphics nut, I'm thinking as long as I can get it to run at a nice framerate with the visuals in the video it'll be a real looker for sure.

 

[BigTnaples]

the desaturated sharpening 3: wild hunt

Haha. Well done.


Really though, we need some hudless 4K Ultra Shots up in here to show us what this game really looks like. IGN and others have PC code right? Let's get to Twitter and ask for some shots?

 

[Momentary]

People have been posting PS4 screenshots saying how good it looks... and I know it looks good, book the awful resolution and non-existant AA solution is making my eyes twitch.

I hate what PCs have done to me when it comes to polygonal games.

 

[viveks86]

People have been posting PS4 screenshots saying how good it looks... and I know it looks good, book the awful resolution and non-existant AA solution is making my eyes twitch.

I hate what PCs have done to me when it comes to polygonal games.

I feel ya

 

[Sanctuary]

People have been posting PS4 screenshots saying how good it looks... and I know it looks good, book the awful resolution and non-existant AA solution is making my eyes twitch.

I hate what PCs have done to me when it comes to polygonal games.

There's always Bethesda. Sure, they only release two games a decade, but they usually look noticeably better on PC and also supply necessary modding tools to make it look better than real life.

 

[Renekton]

People have been posting PS4 screenshots saying how good it looks... and I know it looks good, book the awful resolution and non-existant AA solution is making my eyes twitch.

I hate what PCs have done to me when it comes to polygonal games.

What's your PC spec anyways

 

[Jonm1010]

I really don't get these comparisons.

Is that the exact swamp and Time of Day? Definitely not. We haven't played the game.

I feel like the new defense force is coming in here and cherry picking the lowest hanging fruit and completely and likely deliberately ignoring every other piece of data that goes against the grain of their narrative.

I mean can you explain the rest of the shots as well? Are we now reverting back to the old arguments?

 

[viveks86]

Anybody using terms like "defense force" has instantaneously lost my respect. Good luck getting a response. Or may be you aren't really interested in one and just want to end a conversation that never began.

 

[Kintaro]

I hate what PCs have done to me when it comes to polygonal games.

Yeah. I hate having great things too. =)

 

[Momentary]

What's your PC spec anyways

I only have a 980m right now. Waiting for Pascal to build a desktop after I finish with this year if training I got.

 

[benzy]

I prefer this to be honest. There's something not quite right about the new colour scheme/artstyle they've gone with.

I actually like that better too outside of the sharpening.. lol. Areas lit by the sunlight actually look bright, like in the 2013 footage. It's kind of dull in the new one.

 

[viveks86]

For anyone still unsure, I can now confirm that HBAO+ is indeed supported in the final game. It has not been stripped out and it will affect everything including foliage. I can't quote my source here, since I'm unsure if it has consequences, but I'm open to a mod PM if necessary.

 

[drotahorror]

Off topic: Still the the PC platform will outsell the PS4 and the X1 separately. Kinds of funny how Console platforms ban together to inflate numbers againt PC numbers. Just throwing that out there.

You think so? I've seen a few people that are in the same boat as me. Have a similar system as I do, 2500k 660ti/7950 around that area for GPU, and are skipping the PC version and going for the console version.

I got a feeling PS4 and XB1 are gonna kill it in sales.

 

[ufo8mycat]

I got a feeling PS4 and XB1 are gonna kill it in sales.

If this was any other game then yeah without question. But I would be extremely surprised if the PS4 version outsold the PC version, considering console gamers have not really had that much exposure to this series.

Then again I may be wrong.

 

[jaju123]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU70-e0XHxw

Here are the PC settings. I'm surprised IGN shows them first lol.

Also, they played their whole live demo on ultra settings on PC. I noticed no difference and thought it was PS4...