Support NeoGAF

[Crossing Eden]

Nobody seemed to mind, especially those who actually bought the game.

So....the target audience being pandered to didn't have an issue with being pandered with? WOW I never would've figured.

This thread exists to "counter" the other one. And I noticed a lot these designs are from Japanese games, I wonder why... (I know I posted one but that's besides the point)

Because they've been incredibly stagnant when it comes to representation and thus are still enforcing really bad stereotypes? Not that hard to figure out.

Anyway:

Hi, i'm an AI that got a new body, previously I had no capacity for sexuality, but this is how I'm represented:

 

[luulubuu]

Depends on the design. Like something like Twintelle, you'd be very hard-pressed to find something to complain about, as it's very tasteful imo.


Something like this on the other hand, not so much:

The first woman who has blushing tiddies and is also a sword. I want to be like her

 

[Linkura]

What?

Dragon's crown characters are designed to be comically grotesque.

Where are their giant penises then

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah 9S is totally the "little pet boyfriend" archetype. (A little like Krillin is to Android 18 only a much sexier design.) The boyshorts really drive it home.

His dog collar too, woof. It's probably not as pronounced for western audiences, but his design is just maximum pandering for straight women in Japan.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

So....the target audience being pandered to didn't have an issue with being pandered with? WOW I never would've figured.

Yes. Both Men and Women enjoyed this game.

 

[Moz]

Bland, boring, generic, grey, uninspired, uncreative, unattractive, non-feminine, terrible.

The inclusion of this kinda torpedoes your argument and says a lot more about you than the target of your frustration.

 

[zoukka]

Where are their giant penises then

In Conan Exiles.

But seriously, games would probably end up getting 18+ ratings or bans in some countries if they even hinted at visible penises. Sexist I know.

 

[Basketball]

Depends on the design. Like something like Twintelle, you'd be very hard-pressed to find something to complain about, as it's very tasteful imo.


Something like this on the other hand, not so much:

"bad"

that strap tho

Spoiler

 

[luulubuu]

His dog collar too, woof. It's probably not as pronounced for western audiences, but his design is just maximum pandering for straight women in Japan.

Then you are saying that the game is indeed marketed and sexualized in order to sell

 

[Antiwhippy]

And yet that's undermined by egregious character art and designs as well as the ability to self destruct in order to destroy your skirt. It's almost like this medium has a history of games that even tho they try to have a good message they undermine it with ridiculous character design. Hmmm.

Fair enough on the self-destruct. I don't even really like the design of the self-destruct form, but that is clearly pandering in a way.

I'll just say you can self-destruct 9s to show his undies too, but it's not nearly as sexually designed as 2b. At least not for me anyway, but i don't like guys who are too scrawny.

 

[JackelZXA]

His dog collar too, woof. It's probably not as pronounced for western audiences, but his design is just maximum pandering for straight women in Japan.

I was thinking about it and I think part of why A2 contrasts those 2 so much is that her design is more of a....shitty teen who hangs out at the mall than a sexy lolita. Within this art style she has an overall "you punk kid" aesthetic.

Spoiler

(She's an older model and also like...her clothes are baked into her exoframe right? They're not fully clothes and she doesn't have a more realistic body like the modern units?)

Anyway:

Hi, i'm an AI that got a new body, previously I had no capacity for sexuality, but this is how I'm represented:

Edi hit on joker and made human sex jokes even in ME2. It was always a part of her character.

 

[Garnox]

I get the argument for both sides. You have sex appeal out the wazoo which caters to a target audience, but still the design is attractive highlighting aspects of the human form that is (and should be frankly) appreciated by many.

On the other hand, practical design (ala not bikini mail) is a breath of fresh air and really immerses one into the story the creators are trying to cultivate. Plus it doesn't constantly objectify the human form (mostly female) and sets a better precedence when pertaining to representation.

Personally I like Quiet. I think she looks very attractive. I wish Kojima would just say he wants a stylized design that accentuates the female form and I make no excuses for wanting to have sex appeal in my game. That would've been more believable.

Throw in Snake without his shirt off too, showing off his ripped physique that way your consistent in your presentation. Just my opinion, no need to go spreading it or anything.

Edit: Sorry, on topic... not a fan of Miss Fortunes default skin from League of Legends. It's meant to be sexy, but it's kind of a bland and boring design for pirates. Personally I think her Captain Fortune skin should be her default.

 

[Tohsaka]

And yet that's undermined by egregious character art and designs as well as the ability to self destruct in order to destroy your skirt. It's almost like this medium has a history of games that even tho they try to have a good message they undermine it with ridiculous character design. Hmmm.

You can destroy 9S's shorts as well (you never have to actually do it for either character at any point, I finished one route without even knowing it was possible), and the antagonists are two hot shirtless (one of them is naked initially) guys designed to pander to women.

 

[cakely]

I have not meant to disrespect any females in this thread but my point still stands that designs aren’t automatically bad if they are sexy. I apologize if I have offended any females.


Yes then let’s let women complain and not men. Women don’t need SJWs to defend them, they have equal rights, they can defend themselves.

If people are going to complain about sex and fetishized designs why do people only bring up females? Why not bring up males? I know there are a lot more female designs that fall that direction but still.

People can call me biased all they want but the majority of the conversation is biased from the other side as well.

Video games are for entertainment, let people be entertained by what they like to be entertained by.

I’m out either way, This thread has turned into more arguing then designs anyway.

You had a great opportunity to call someone a "White Knight" here and you blew it.

 

[cm osi]

There are a ton of Monster Hunter armors I could throw here. Zinogre armor is especially bad. Just a clusterfuck of gaudy detail and impractical revealing areas..

i think it looks great, but then again i'm not searching praticality and modesty in a monster hunter game at all.
a clean and pratical looking armor is "good design" in real world, but in a fantasy game you can just skip all the downsides of having a gaudy and impratical armor. that doesn't make it bad design

 

[Basketball]

Bland, boring, generic, grey, uninspired, uncreative, unattractive, non-feminine, terrible.

Yep ultra boring design

All the outfits in the game too
Hope it changes in the next game

 

[LotusHD]

I get the argument for both sides. You have sex appeal out the wazoo which caters to a target audience, but still the design is attractive highlighting aspects of the human form that is (and should be frankly) appreciated by many.

On the other hand, practical design (ala not bikini mail) is a breath of fresh air and really immerses one into the story the creators are trying to cultivate. Plus it doesn't constantly objectify the human form (mostly female) and sets a better precedence when pertaining to representation.

Personally I like Quiet. I think she looks very attractive. I wish Kojima would just say he wants a stylized design that accentuates the female form and I make no excuses for wanting to have sex appeal in my game. That would've been more believable.

Throw in Snake without his shirt off too, showing off his ripped physique that way your consistent in your presentation. Just my opinion, no need to go spreading it or anything.

I don't feel like a shirtless Snake would suddenly make Quiet's design okay though.

 

[Spiritwalker]

Not to beat a dead horse, but Quiet is definitely my least favourite female design in recent years. It's a shame because the woman she's modeled after is stunning.

And yeah, the checkerboard titty witch from Star Ocean 5 is laughably bad.

 

[Alucrid]

Realism isn't always good design and can be boring. Style is always more interesting. That's why superman and batman are so popular. There's no justification for capes or pointy ears but they're interesting to look at and make the characters memorable. If batman just had a facemask and bullet proof vest he'd be a really boring character.



Yeah 9S is totally the "little pet boyfriend" archetype. (A little like Krillin is to Android 18 only a much sexier design.) The boyshorts really drive it home.

okay so you agree that the outfit is sexualized and that you like it that way because of its style?

 

[PK Gaming]

Then you are saying that the game is indeed marketed and sexualized in order to sell

Yeah, but again I don't think the game solely because of its sexualization. It's also a pretty good example of good sexualization and not embarrassing like Xenoblade 2. AND it feeds back into the narrative as well.

 

[Toxi]

In addition to the sadly standard thigh gap, Brachydios Armor brings giant armored pigtails to the table. Words cannot describe how stupid this is.

 

[Springy]

My problem with reboot Lara is that she's too plain. Like, I think the isometric games got the balance between her classic design but not as overly sexualised more on the right tracks.
Reboot Lara just looks like if Guile on SF6 was the Van Damme look. It's not bad, it's just a less visually interesting look than the classic one.

SF:TM was literally a person. Guile in every other game is an exaggerated cartoon man.

Similarly, the aesthetic of TR 2013 and RotTR is much closer to conveying real people by their features and proportions. I disagree that that's "plain," but it's definitely a subjective change. My avatar betrays my opinion on this.

I maintain that Lara's design in GO and GoL remains absurd, dependent on her squeezing into the turquoise top and brown shorts that were dreamed up to appeal to young male players, even if the camera has been withdrawn to a farther distance.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You can destroy 9S's shorts as well (you never have to actually do it for either character at any point, I finished one route without even knowing it was possible), and the antagonists are two hot shirtless (one of them is naked initially) guys designed to pander to women.

I'm not saying that the women are solely sexualized, (although being able to self destruct 9S is a good example of how framing matters and that two or the same thing aren't necessarily equivalent:

Just that for the most part, the designs of women are more sexualized than the men. The guy who appears nude literally doesn't even have genitalia. Yet 2B for some reason is wearing a thong leotard that also has a cleavage window because reasons.

 

[TheMrPliskin]

The first woman who has blushing tiddies and is also a sword. I want to be like her

I missed the weird blushing boobs, or whatever the hell they were going for there. There are depths to how bad that design is.

 

[Shogmaster]

At least in H5 they decided to dial it back a bit.

In Halo 5 she gets to dress herself so...

 

[luulubuu]

Yeah, but again I don't think the game solely because of its sexualization. It's also a pretty good example of good sexualization and not embarrassing like Xenoblade 2. AND it feeds back into the narrative as well.

The narrative loophole is just another name for "Artist vision" making a context and a lore problem and instance where a character should/have/must wear of be in certain ways is just another way of justify it and normalize stuff.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I have not meant to disrespect any females in this thread but my point still stands that designs aren’t automatically bad if they are sexy. I apologize if I have offended any females.

Apology acce...

Yes then let’s let women complain and not men. Women don’t need SJWs to defend them, they have equal rights, they can defend themselves.

If people are going to complain about sex and fetishized designs why do people only bring up females? Why not bring up males? I know there are a lot more female designs that fall that direction but still.

People can call me biased all they want but the majority of the conversation is biased from the other side as well.

Video games are for entertainment, let people be entertained by what they like to be entertained by.

I’m out either way, This thread has turned into more arguing then designs anyway.

-- Nevermind. Apology refused.

Btw you do realize that women are posting in this thread right?

 

[chrominance]

Reboot Lara Croft: looks like a normal woman wearing a tank top and pants
(some of) GAF: BORING, NON-FEMININE, GREY, UNATTRACTIVE, LITERALLY THE WORST DESIGN

 

[cabelhigh]

I never really went along with this. Sexiness can be an expression of women's interactions with men, but it doesn't necessarily rob them of agency unless it's a character who's personality is that she doesn't have agency and is weak willed. Characters have multiple fascets to their personalities and sexuality can absolutely be a good and solid part of any strong man or woman. It just depends on what is being said and communicated, and what the character as a whole amounts to. Saying sexualized characters are removed of agency and dont have merit of their own feels like wires are being crossed. A doesn't exactly connect to C or D here and it feels like some wide nets are being cast.

Sure! Totally! I think that's a very valid critique. I think what I meant was that sexualized characters aren't inherently agent-less, but by framing them from a male perspective (i.e. as a sex object) it dimishes their agency and is no longer a female story but a story about a female told from the perspective of a man. See the controversial

Spoiler

Sansa/Ramsay Bolton rape scene

from Game of Thrones, where the story doesn't focus on how the woman feels about the horrific act being commited to her, but instead focuses on another man in the room and how it effects him.

There's nothing inherently bad about a female character who is sexy who also has a complex character arc and uses her 'sexiness' to further that arc; it's when the sexiness is the sum total of her character, or gets used to demean her character or diminutize her in relation to the male characters, who aren't sexualized, that I believe things begin to break down.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't feel like a shirtless Snake would suddenly make Quiet's design okay though.

Shirtless Snake even appears in the game but it's framed completely differently than whenever Quiet is onscreen.

 

[Akuun]

Surprised no one's mentioned Nowi from Fire Emblem yet. It's like someone bet an artist to take every creepy sexualized underaged girl trope and do their worst.

http://awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=040813

 

[Korigama]

any character that wears future armor that for some inexplicable reason has high heels (didnt zero suit samus have some dumb shit like that?)

except raiden, of course

Not in Zero Mission. They didn't start with that until the platform heels in Other M.

Surprised no one's mentioned Nowi from Fire Emblem yet. It's like someone bet an artist to take every creepy sexualized underaged girl trope and do their worst.

http://awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=040813

She was brought up around page 3.

 

[mollipen]

It's Gothic Lolita, and it's weird and sexy, which is kind of the point. The game evokes a very specific aesthetic for the YoRHa units, that definitely works in practice. Practically is pretty much irrelevant.

Well, to be fair, the point of Gothic Lolita is often times not at all "sexy". There's a lot of different reasons for the fashion trend, which is part of why there's so many specific variations of it in Japan.

And, straight up, 2B is like 300% power fantasy for me. *shrugs* Looking like her, wearing that dress, and being a badass with a sword? I want to be that in every game thankyouverymuch (and real life too).

 

[stryke]

Bland, boring, generic, grey, uninspired, uncreative, unattractive, non-feminine, terrible.

An unattractive female is not bad character design.

 

[PK Gaming]

I was thinking about it and I think part of why A2 contrasts those 2 so much is that her design is more of a....shitty teen who hangs out at the mall than a sexy lolita. Within this art style she has an overall "you punk kid" aesthetic.

Spoiler

(She's an older model and also like...her clothes are baked into her exoframe right? They're not fully clothes and she doesn't have a more realistic body like the modern units?)

She's definitely meant to contrast with the rest of the YoRHa units who fall in line with command.

Spoiler

I don't think her clothes are backed into her exoframe, but rather, I think the exoframe is just falling apart. Hence the reason why you can see her robotic joints.

 

[Poppy]

Not in Zero Mission. They didn't start with that until the platform heels in Other M.

of course, everything bad in the universe comes from other m

 

[Schopenhauerian]

...I think people are confusing character design and character....

...To be honest I think the design here [Lara's Reboot design] already caters too much to a group of males given her frame and facial structure. They made her delicate and all that. She ought to be fairly masculine in terms of a lot of things if we're going to be reasonable and not cater to male fantasy...

Agree with the above (and with Cara Ellison's suggestion, as noted below). There are folks who approve of the improvement in Lara's visual design, but have specific objections to her characterization, in the latest game in particular:

One thing I would like to emphasize, with respect to those of us (see here, for more detail) who have objected to the way Crystal Dynamics has characterized Lara (when they first took over from 2006-2008, and then again from 2013-2016).

We are not at all – not in the least bit – expressing a preference for the crass sexualization of the character that occurred from 1996-2008, or even the (obviously less crass) conventional attractiveness of the character from 2013-2016. As Cara Ellison puts it:

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=7153429&postcount=3
6. Make her older... Lara’s not young any more. Why are we treating her like she is? For some dumb idea of female attractiveness? **** that ****. Lara’s probably had spikes through every part of her body and I bet she has metal pins holding her limbs together. She’s sturdier than Ripley. You know who I think is a hero? A woman who doesn’t care who thinks she is ****able. She lives in the dark. Who’s gonna look at her? A mummy?

As Lime has noted:

From a purely visual perspective, I completely agree that the re-imaginary was a much better and much more believable design that actually seemed realistic to various degrees. Before this visual reboot, it was pretty evident that Eidos back in the day took the character of Lara Croft and used her as a means to market the games with cheap titillation in order to appeal to straight boys / men with disposable income. (Sidenote: the character was originally supposed to be South-American, but Eidos decided against it and made her a White Brit instead). Yet, as evidenced in many different testimonies by girls and women (such as this research article, or Latoya Peterson & her documentary series on Girl Gamers), Lara Croft was an important character to them in their childhood despite of the obvious sexual objectification in marketing (this is not me condoning the sexual objectification, just nuancing how players use games to their own end)...

See also:

Messofanego had a great thread a while back (Take Rhianna Pratchett off and bring in Cara Ellison). Unfortunate that CD quite clearly did not take Cara Ellison's advice.

Interestingly, it turned out that Pratchett herself may have had problems with the extent to which Lara's motivations/mental life (in ROTTR) is fixed obsessively around her father. Unfortunate that Crystal Dynamics apparently insisted on that type of effective simplification/trivialization of Lara's agency/motivations/mental life:

Pratchett: "I've been open about the fact I wasn't that into the father storyline to start with," she says, "but eventually found peace with it, and I think we did some good things with it..."

 

[Morrigan Stark]

An unattractive female is not bad character design.

And she isn't unattractive, she looks like a supermodel lol...

Unattractive female leads are practically non-existent, not just in gaming but in movies and TV as well. Unattractive males aren't that common either, but not nearly as rare. Women are still valued for their looks first and foremost.

 

[JackelZXA]

I'm not saying that the women are solely sexualized, (although being able to self destruct 9S is a good example of how framing matters and that two or the same thing aren't necessarily equivalent:

Just that for the most part, the designs of women are more sexualized than the men. The guy who appears nude literally doesn't even have genitalia. Yet 2B for some reason is wearing a thong leotard that also has a cleavage window because reasons.

I'd say Adam and eve are much more focused on a sex design than 2B. (the leotard look never shows up in cutscenes either, so it's not meant to reflect her narrative place in the story.) The two brother boyfriends are by far the highest on the scale of sexualized characters by a good mile or two.

okay so you agree that the outfit is sexualized and that you like it that way because of its style?

I don't agree that the outfit is sexualized, but I think it's stylization makes it look much cooler, more interesting, and memorable than seal team 10 marine fatigues ever would.

 

[Savitar]

Depends on the design. Like something like Twintelle, you'd be very hard-pressed to find something to complain about, as it's very tasteful imo.


Something like this on the other hand, not so much:

Based on Nintendo's previous actions they're likely to "color in" some of the bare parts of her to make her look like she's wearing more clothing.

 

[Linkura]

In Conan Exiles.

But seriously, games would probably end up getting 18+ ratings or bans in some countries if they even hinted at visible penises. Sexist I know.

Don't need visible penises, just a little bulge.

In addition to the sadly standard thigh gap, Brachydios Armor brings giant armored pigtails to the table. Words cannot describe how stupid this is.

I raise you Phantasy Star Online. I always thought that design was cute though.

 

[ResidentWeevil13]

Given the wealth of options, I can't believe there are people saying reboot Lara Croft is one of the worst female character designs. Come on guys...

My contribution is this monstrosity

 

[Toxi]

i think it looks great, but then again i'm not searching praticality and modesty in a monster hunter game at all.
a clean and pratical looking armor is "good design" in real world, but in a fantasy game you can just skip all the downsides of having a gaudy and impratical armor. that doesn't make it bad design

I think it looks like an incoherent mess (though to be fair, I don't think any of the Zinogre stuff besides the hunting horn looks good; even the monster itself is a bit too overdesigned for my tastes). Impractical armor is fine if it actually looks elegant and interesting. Zinogre armor feels lazy, like they just threw all the Zinogre details onto a standard female armor template.

I always thought that design was cute though.

I mean, it's creative... I just really think it looks stupid.

 

[Garnox]

I don't feel like a shirtless Snake would suddenly make Quiet's design okay though.

No, but it wouldn't make the sex appeal one sided. Why the need for any sex appeal then you say? Because sometimes games are meant for escapism and it's fun to play games with a variety of styles, realistic or hyper stylized. Though it would be better if both aspects are represented evenly, you know what I mean. Why not both?

If this doesn't agree with you, just ignore my ramblings.

 

[B.K.]

I still hate what Choco did to Shion in Xenosaga Episode III.

You shouldn't hire hentai artists to do your character designs.

 

[Hesh]

Looking back on it, Tifa from FF VII was pretty ridiculous. Chun-Li from MvC:I makes me sad.

 

[Captainbojanglesiii]

Literally just popped into my view while playing HotS.

wat

Honestly went over my head for years until someone pointed it out a little while ago.

These three are my winners. Fucking atrocious

If we're talking about least sensible design (Of which there are some incredible contenders here), that's another story. These just hurt to look at from an art perspective.

 

[AgentLampshade]

I hesitate to say "worst" but Quiet is an absolute mess in regard to aesthetics and characterisation, on every level. It's hard to believe the same guy designed The Boss.

There's a lot...a lot...of low hanging fruit with regards to this topic, so I'm just kind of...ignoring those.

 

[brian!]

Did anyone of Gaf believe this?

i did, but the resulting shame was also from my words and deeds so he wasn't wrong

 

[Antiwhippy]

The narrative loophole is just another name for "Artist vision" making a context and a lore problem and instance where a character should/have/must wear of be in certain ways is just another way of justify it and normalize stuff.

But i think that should be fine though? There have been plenty of art and stories that talks about sexuality. I know there's a problem in games with using women as sex objects meant to sell to an audience, but sex in games i feel should be discussed as long as it's equal and respectful? Not even saying that most of the examples in this thread are that lol.