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Would increased gun regulation have prevented Connecticut?

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Once again, guns kill people, why not also take away pencils there wont be bad books, take away fast food there wont be fat people.

Less yes true but will it stop it no, it will only take away our Second Amendment and punish those who aren't crazy metal people, take guns away from people who obey the law and enjoy guns and trust them for food and protection.

This guy would of done everything he could to harm these kids, don't blame guns its just a ploy to get rid of something you don't like.
 
An outright ownership ban is a ridiculous proposition but sadly people tend to jump right to it without trying to come up with a more logical, reasonable solution. The overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners are not violent, but I don't think the government forcefully taking away and destroying hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of property from law-abiding citizens would end well. The majority would probably hide their guns. I know I would. I have a Remington .22 bolt action rifle that is over 100 years old and has been passed down in my family. It has a ton of sentimental value to me and I'd risk prosecution without hesitation to keep it from being seized.

I have no idea how much guns cost, but if the govt offered 500 bucks for every gun you bring in I think it would make a somewhat decent dent in gun ownership. Still wont come close to getting rid of all the guns, but it would provide a nice stimulus to the economy, and I cant say im really comfortable of any of the other methods of getting rid of existing guns if we outlaw guns (not in favor of getting rid of guns to begin with or the method i proposed since I dont think its very practical now)

Most guns are worth over $500 I'd think. I have a shotgun that my grandfather gave to me (Browning Citori Lightning) that's worth ~$2000 and has a ton of sentimental value as well. A lot of people don't understand that even a gun can carry with it fond memories of being with family and therefore be valuable in a different sense. For me it was hunting or shooting with my dad and grandpa when I was younger.
 
An outright ownership ban is a ridiculous proposition but sadly people tend to jump right to it without trying to come up with a more logical, reasonable solution. The overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners are not violent, but I don't think the government forcefully taking away and destroying hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of property from law-abiding citizens would end well.



Most guns are worth over $500 I'd think. I have a shotgun that my grandfather gave to me (Browning Citori Lightning) that's worth ~$2000 and has a ton of sentimental value.

Honestly if I were making gun laws, something like that shotgun would be perfectly fine. I have no issue with stuff like that, guns used for hunting or shotguns for protecting yourself. I think fully automatic weapons aren't something people need to own and that anything you can carry around hidden (handguns and the like) should require psychological screenings on the regular. When we talk about gun laws everyone always takes it to the extreme with the slippery slopes. We need to be more careful about what kind of guns people can own and what sort of people can own them in the first place. If there is a chance you will use a gun to hurt someone then you shouldn't get one, but that's just me.
 
An outright ownership ban is a ridiculous proposition but sadly people tend to jump right to it without trying to come up with a more logical, reasonable solution. The overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners are not violent, but I don't think the government forcefully taking away and destroying hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of property from law-abiding citizens would end well. The majority would probably hide their guns. I know I would. I have a Remington .22 bolt action rifle that is over 100 years old and has been passed down in my family. It has a ton of sentimental value to me and I'd risk prosecution without hesitation to keep it from being seized.

No one here is seriously advocating this. Get of here with that strawman horseshit.
 
An outright ownership ban is a ridiculous proposition but sadly people tend to jump right to it without trying to come up with a more logical, reasonable solution. The overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners are not violent, but I don't think the government forcefully taking away and destroying hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of property from law-abiding citizens would end well. The majority would probably hide their guns. I know I would. I have a Remington .22 bolt action rifle that is over 100 years old and has been passed down in my family. It has a ton of sentimental value to me and I'd risk prosecution without hesitation to keep it from being seized.

There would be a lot of guns lost to "boating accidents" if it ever came to that.
 
Can the arguments about legalizing drugs be used for guns? If you ban guns, don't you essentially create a market to prop up organized crime?
 
This is how they did it in Australia when they adjusted the gun laws.
The gun buyback, yes.

It was still a thorny issue over here when it was implemented, how many of those firearms handed in for cash were used in a crime or murder? Even gun control over here criticized it.
 
Can the arguments about legalizing drugs be used for guns? If you ban guns, don't you essentially create a market to prop up organized crime?

Guns are a lot harder to smuggle, but you know that already.

The gun buyback, yes.

It was still a thorny issue over here when it was implemented, how many of those firearms handed in for cash were used in a crime or murder? Even gun control over here criticized it.

No matter what you do people will always complain. Maybe some people got away with crimes because of it, but plenty of other people didn't get hurt and won't be hurt as a result. People say even without guns they will find a way, the fact is though you cannot commit mass murder with a knife. At least not in the way we're used to.
 
Honestly if I were making gun laws, something like that shotgun would be perfectly fine. I have no issue with stuff like that, guns used for hunting or shotguns for protecting yourself. I think fully automatic weapons aren't something people need to own and that anything you can carry around hidden (handguns and the like) should require psychological screenings on the regular. When we talk about gun laws everyone always takes it to the extreme with the slippery slopes. We need to be more careful about what kind of guns people can own and what sort of people can own them in the first place. If there is a chance you will use a gun to hurt someone then you shouldn't get one, but that's just me.

Well, full autos are so expensive and hard to get that usually only gun enthusiasts or collectors have them. Full autos obtained by criminals are usually illegally modified or stolen. If you're talking about a semi-automatic, such as the AR-15 that the killer scum used in the shooting today, then you're also looking at problems with determining what should be allowed and what shouldn't. There are semi-auto hunting shotguns that are really common for example. Again though, the vast majority of people who own an AR-15 are not violent.. It's a fun gun to target shoot with so that's why most people seem to have them.

IMO this is what needs to happen...

1. Private selling of guns should be handled through a licensed firearms dealer who can administer the same background check that a person would need for buying a gun in a store. That applies to gun shows too, which, while fun, are an insult to gun laws.

2. Mandatory psychiatric evaluation. You would need a signature from a psychiatrist, which would be part of what would allow you to purchase a gun. This would need to be renewed every few years.

3. More extensive background checks, and the ability for dealers to refuse to sell a gun to someone if they feel the person would not use the gun responsibly.

4. Mandatory gun safety class. I took hunters/gun safety when I was pretty young (around 13 maybe) and it was a fantastic and eye-opening experience. At my then young age by law I was not allowed to have a hunting license without taking the class. But imo EVERYONE should have to take the class before buying a gun.

5. Change the minimum buying age for long guns from 18 to 21, making it the same as handguns.

6. The combination of the evaluation and gun safety class would allow you to have a license to buy a gun. The more extensive background checks for ALL weapon sales would help prevent criminals from buying guns from gun shows or private sellers, as anyone who sells illegally could be charged in a resulting crime. You need a license to buy a car, and you should need one to buy a gun too. Law-abiding gun owners like myself should have NO issue with such a proposal if it meant saving lives. If you can afford a $1000 AR-15 you should be able to afford a safety class and and a visit to a psychiatrist.

No one here is seriously advocating this. Get of here with that strawman horseshit.

Uh, yes there have been. Both here and on other forums.
 
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO TO THIS THREAD
:P Sorry. I'll follow up with my thoughts on what I meant by that in the PoliGAF thread.
Ugh, god

This debate has been on my mind literally all day since I heard about the shooting (i'm using the literal definition of literal in this case; I have been thinking about it constantly). A lot of aspects of it have really been getting to me.

I want to shut my brain up for a little while but not merely distract myself. For those of you who like/can tolerate The West Wing, I'm going to rewatch the episode War Crimes, which is Episode 5, Season 3. The A-plot of the episode tackles this discussion in a manner that isn't too glib, with room for a little nuance, and while the lean of the show is completely transparent, several of the arguments on both sides presented during the endless hours since this horrific tragedy occurred are presented.

I remember the "devil's advocate" scene with the Vice President being particularly good (although the President of the United States does refer to the 2nd amendment as a "dumbass amendment" [true story] which I have to imagine will turn some of you off). Anyway if you have the ability to and feel like watching the discussion play out and getting some context as to how similar the dicussion we are having now is to the one we were having 11 years ago, that's what I'll be doing for the next ~40 minutes.
In the wake of watching this I'm struck by several things. It's quite a good episode, as an aside. For those who know WW continuity, it's got a great, subtle moment underscoring that the President doesn't yet know that Hoynes is an alcoholic, as well as an extraordinarily compelling piece of acting from John Spencer when Leo is told the outcome of one of his missions in Vietnam. On topic, the debate between the VP and Bartlet is as good as I remembered and brings up an aspect (the motivation behind concealed carry) that I didn't remember, though I wish it'd delved further into it.

What really got me though, was in the opening scenes of the episode, before the President knew there were any casualties from the shooting, when he's just expounding on how useless the sermon he'd just witnessed at his church was.
You can't just trot out Ephesians- which he blew, by the way. It has nothing with husbands and wives, it's all of us. Saint Paul begins the passage: "Be subject to one another out of reverence to Christ."

"Be subject to one another." In this day and age of 24-hour cable crap, devoted to feeding the voyeuristic gluttony of the American public, hooked on a bad soap opera that's passing itself off as important, don't you think you might be able to find some relevance in verse 21? How do we end the cycle? Be subject to one another!
Fuck.

I'm still extraordinarily sad right now, both about the massacre in Newtown as well as the mass stabbing in China, but I'm heading to bed now bearing in mind a silver thread of hope I've detected in this thread, struggling to make itself visible amidst strawman arguments and rhetoric as passionate as it is empty. I've seen rational voices approach the debate from all angles attempting to find common ground and locate pragmatic solutions that might, just maybe, effect change for the better. I've seen women and men of intellect argue their visions of society for hours on end without succumbing to the tantalizing prospect of throwing our collective arms in the air, proclaiming that there's simply nothing we can do.

I'm going to bed tonight with a heart burdened by grief, but also buoyed by hope. Hope that discussions like this one- stained though they might be by the occasional wanton cries of the fringe, and obscured though they might be by the muddy waters of the unwilling- hope that our better angels can prevail and we can break the cycle.

As I head off to bed I'm sure the lot of you will continue arguing deep into the night. And in the coming days and weeks and months the media will frame and dissect and reframe and rehash every aspect of this debate down to the most meaningless facet available. But I hope we can cling to the common ground we have managed to find. I hope that none of it is forgotten or discarded. And if we can manage to be subject to one another as we continue... if I can hope for that, too... well that'd be just fine.
 
Well, full autos are so expensive and hard to get that usually only gun enthusiasts or collectors have them. Full autos obtained by criminals are usually illegally modified or stolen. If you're talking about a semi-automatic, such as the AR-15 that the killer scum used in the shooting today, then you're also looking at problems with determining what should be allowed and what shouldn't. There are semi-auto hunting shotguns that are really common for example. Again though, the vast majority of people who own an AR-15 are not violent.. It's a fun gun to target shoot with so that's why most people seem to have them.

IMO this is what needs to happen...

1. Private selling of guns should be handled through a licensed firearms dealer who can administer the same background check that a person would need for buying a gun in a store. That applies to gun shows too, which, while fun, are an insult to gun laws.

2. Mandatory psychiatric evaluation. You would need a signature from a psychiatrist, which would be part of what would allow you to purchase a gun. This would need to be renewed every few years.

3. More extensive background checks, and the ability for dealers to refuse to sell a gun to someone if they feel the person would not use the gun responsibly.

4. Mandatory gun safety class. I took hunters/gun safety when I was pretty young (around 13 maybe) and it was a fantastic and eye-opening experience. At my then young age by law I was not allowed to have a hunting license without taking the class. But imo EVERYONE should have to take the class before buying a gun.

5. Change the minimum buying age for long guns from 18 to 21, making it the same as handguns.

6. The combination of the evaluation and gun safety class would allow you to have a license to buy a gun. The more extensive background checks for ALL weapon sales would help prevent criminals from buying guns from gun shows or private sellers, as anyone who sells illegally could be charged in a resulting crime. You need a license to buy a car, and you should need one to buy a gun too. Law-abiding gun owners like myself should have NO issue with such a proposal if it meant saving lives. If you can afford a $1000 AR-15 you should be able to afford a safety class and and a visit to a psychiatrist.

You see, I would have no problem with any of this. I just want to make sure guns don't wind up in the hands of people who would use them to hurt others.
 
You deal with mental health and the cases of violence would drop significantly. The same trend exists in all of these slaughters. The Gunman had diagnosed mental conditions and people even waved red flags and they were not being properly treated.

America when it comes to mental health is shitty and people don't care that it is. Its easier to draw lines in the sand and blame inanimate objects than to accept as a society we are failures in certain regards.

Mental Health in America is directly linked to the idea of straight jackets, loony bins and every other negative association people can come up with. You mention you have a disorder and are taking medication for it and suddenly your that oddball that needs to be avoided because they are crazy afterall
 
You see, I would have no problem with any of this. I just want to make sure guns don't wind up in the hands of people who would use them to hurt others.

Speaking of which, I forgot to mention there HAS to be something done about people who don't lock up their damn guns. It's covered in the gun safety classes, but today's tragedy probably could have been avoided had the mom kept the guns locked up and out of reach from her kids. Especially an AR-15... I mean what the hell. I have a feeling it was something she bought for one of them and not for herself.
 
For those thinking about the gun debate in the US you might find some inspiration in former Australian prime minister John Howard. At the very least, it's an outsiders look at the US gun debate.

Howard was prime minister during the 1996 Port Arthur massacre in which 35 people were killed by a gunman. It was the biggest gun massacre in Australia's recent history.

He was a conservative PM, very much like your republicans, but he says his proudest achievement while in office was to introduce gun control legislation which banned all automatic and semi-automatic weapons. He also instituted a huge gun buyback program in which about a fifth of all the guns in Australia were bought and destroyed.

He wrote a column a few months back reflecting on America's own gun control issues:

Brothers in arms, yes, but the US needs to get rid of its guns
By John Howard

EARLY in 2008 Janette and I were guests of the former president, George H. W. Bush or ''41'', as he is affectionately known, at his Presidential Library in College Station, Texas.

I spoke to a warm and friendly audience of more than 300 who enthusiastically reacted until, in answer to a request to nominate the proudest actions of the Australian government I had led for almost 12 years, I included the national gun control laws enacted after the Port Arthur massacre in April 1996.

Having applauded my references to the liberation of East Timor, leaving Australia debt free, presiding over a large reduction in unemployment and standing beside the US in the global fight against terrorism, there was an audible gasp of amazement at my expressing pride in what Australia had done to limit the use of guns.

I had been given a sharp reminder that, despite the many things we have in common with our American friends, there is a huge cultural divide when it comes to the free availability of firearms.

Just under two weeks ago, my wife and I were in Dallas, Texas, when the mass shooting in Aurora, Colorado, took place. The responses of President Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, his presumed Republican opponent, were as predictable as they were disappointing. While expressing sorrow at such a loss of life, both quickly said that they supported the Second Amendment to the US constitution: long regarded as providing an extensive right for Americans to bear arms.

The Second Amendment, crafted in the immediate post-revolutionary years, is more than 200 years old and was designed to protect the right of local communities to raise and maintain militia for use against external threats (including the newly formed national government!). It bears no relationship at all to the circumstances of everyday life in America today. Yet there is a near religious fervour about protecting the right of Americans to have their guns - and plenty of them.

In this respect it is worth noting that the local police claim that James Holmes, the man now formally charged over the Aurora shootings, had in his possession an AR15 assault rifle (similar to one used by Martin Bryant at Port Arthur), a shotgun and two Glock handguns and 6000 rounds of ammunition. All had been legally obtained.

Obama and Romney are both highly intelligent, decent men who care deeply about the safety of Americans. Yet such is the strength of the pro-gun culture in their country that neither felt able to use the Aurora tragedy as a reason to start a serious debate on gun control.

There is more to this than merely the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association and the proximity of the November presidential election. It is hard to believe that their reaction would have been any different if the murders in Aurora had taken place immediately after the election of either Obama or Romney. So deeply embedded is the gun culture of the US, that millions of law-abiding, Americans truly believe that it is safer to own a gun, based on the chilling logic that because there are so many guns in circulation, one's own weapon is needed for self-protection. To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.

The murder rate in the US is roughly four times that in each of Australia, New Zealand, and Britain. Even the most diehard supporter of guns must concede that America's lax firearms laws are a major part of the explanation for such a disparity.

On April 28, 1996, Bryant, using two weapons, killed 35 people in Tasmania. It was, at that time, the largest number of people who had died in a single series of incidents at the hands of one person.

The national gun control laws delivered by the Howard government, following this tragedy received bipartisan support. They, nonetheless, caused internal difficulties for some of my then National Party colleagues. Tim Fischer and John Anderson, then leader and deputy leader of the National Party federally, as well as Rob Borbidge, then National Party premier of Queensland, courageously faced down opponents in their own ranks to support a measure they knew to be in the national interest. Many believed, in the months that followed, that hostility towards these gun laws played a role in the emergence of Pauline Hanson's One Nation cause.

These national gun laws have proven beneficial. Research published in 2010 in the American Journal of Law and Economics found that firearm homicides, in Australia, dropped 59 per cent between 1995 and 2006. There was no offsetting increase in non-firearm-related murders. Researchers at Harvard University in 2011 revealed that in the 18 years prior to the 1996 Australian laws, there were 13 gun massacres (four or more fatalities) in Australia, resulting in 102 deaths. There have been none in that category since the Port Arthur laws.

A key component of the 1996 measure, which banned the sale, importation and possession of all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns, was a national buy-back scheme involving the compulsory forfeiture of newly illegal weapons. Between 1996 and 1998 more than 700,000 guns were removed and destroyed. This was one-fifth of Australia's estimated stock of firearms. The equivalent in the US would have been 40 million guns. Australia's action remains one of the largest destructions of civilian firearms.

Australia is a safer country as a result of what was done in 1996. It will be the continuing responsibility of current and future federal and state governments to ensure the effectiveness of those anti-gun laws is never weakened. The US is a country for which I have much affection. There are many American traits which we Australians could well emulate to our great benefit. But when it comes to guns we have been right to take a radically different path.

John Howard was prime minister from 1996 to 2007.
 
You deal with mental health and the cases of violence would drop significantly. The same trend exists in all of these slaughters. The Gunman had diagnosed mental conditions and people even waved red flags and they were not being properly treated.

America when it comes to mental health is shitty and people don't care that it is. Its easier to draw lines in the sand and blame inanimate objects than to accept as a society we are failures in certain regards.

Mental Health in America is directly linked to the idea of straight jackets, loony bins and every other negative association people can come up with. You mention you have a disorder and are taking medication for it and suddenly your that oddball that needs to be avoided because they are crazy afterall

On the other hand, it's really easy to pretend that the fact that there was a gun had absolutely no bearing on the actual tragedy at hand. No, calling them "inanimate objects", "tools", or whatever reductionist word du jour isn't going to change the fact that a lunatic with a gun is more dangerous than a lunatic without it.

The reality is that both of these issues need to be addressed simultaneously for any real dent to be made in these tragedies. Willfully turning a blind eye to either one and blaming the other is simply not productive.
 
Speaking of which, I forgot to mention there HAS to be something done about people who don't lock up their damn guns. It's covered in the gun safety classes, but today's tragedy probably could have been avoided had the mom kept the guns locked up and out of reach from her kids. Especially an AR-15... I mean what the hell. I have a feeling it was something she bought for one of them and not for herself.

Yea, locking up guns is the important issue.

Not that gun culture is so crazy here that its normal for an elementary school teacher to buy her son an AR-15.
 
Safety isn't the only issue, Australian gun laws were reactionary and are absolutely stuffed with beaurocratic nonsense. It acts as a major deterrent for anyone approaching the sport. Calibers of weapon require different licenses (there's no evidence that a .45 is more powerful than a .357, yet the latter is much easier to obtain license wise). Trying to move a handgun is an absolute nightmare, you can be arrested for stopping for fuel whilst moving a handgun from your home to a gun range as you aren't allowed to make stops when carrying a weapon in your car.

The background checks are solid and the buying process whilst overly complicated is thorough. The more crap you layer on the more ridiculous the laws become, the less they are respected. Most NSW police officers will let a lot slide because of how strict things are, it's just too difficult to follow the law to a tee.
 
On the other hand, it's really easy to pretend that the fact that there was a gun had absolutely no bearing on the actual tragedy at hand. No, calling them "inanimate objects", "tools", or whatever reductionist word du jour isn't going to change the fact that a lunatic with a gun is more dangerous than a lunatic without it.

The reality is that both of these issues need to be addressed simultaneously for any real dent to be made in these tragedies. Willfully turning a blind eye to either one and blaming the other is simply not productive.

There are almost 400 million nonmilitary guns in the United States. Roughly 0.0035% of those firearms are used in a violent act with probably 99% of them never being used outside of target shooting or hunting and most probably never

Dealing with the conditions that people have that leads them to commit mass murder will be far more effective then telling people who do no wrong they are bad people and trying to move against them
 
Once again, guns kill people, why not also take away pencils there wont be bad books, take away fast food there wont be fat people.

Less yes true but will it stop it no, it will only take away our Second Amendment and punish those who aren't crazy metal people, take guns away from people who obey the law and enjoy guns and trust them for food and protection.

This guy would of done everything he could to harm these kids, don't blame guns its just a ploy to get rid of something you don't like.

I know you can't stop bad stuff from happening by simply banning guns. You have to have adequate mental health services, intervention, and even then you can't stop someone from randomly snapping and going on a rampage. It happens the world over.

But there are other first world democracies with gun control and no reduction in personal freedoms. I strongly believe the USA should be looking to countries like the UK, Australia and New Zealand for responsible gun ownership laws and gun control. It won't prevent shootings, but it will reduce the number and severity of them.

I don't believe in banning guns - they have their uses and legitimate purposes for ownership. But a comparatively unregulated system (compared to Aus/UK/NZ) is not the answer and it's probably a good time to try and make some moves to get guns out of the community as much as possible.
 
I don´t ever think i will understand the Americans who have a pro guns mentality. I mean seriously, the reason i hear is that you need to protect your family, but what´s the purpose of the police then? Why the hell spend billions of dollars on law reinforcements when you can protect your own family? When you live in a country that is ruled by the rule of law, the police are the only ones who should be having guns to protect people. The thinking of some Americans that i need to protect my own in a country where the rule of law is upheld and enforced, belongs to the dark ages where you needed weapons to protect ones own family.

I guess it´s all different cultures and all. But something is needed to be done prevent or at least limit these kind of tragedies.

What do you mean by "fuck guns"? I feel terribly sad for murdered children as well, but such statement doesn't make any sense, why revoke the right to self-defense?
How about let the protection be done by the police.
 
I know you can't stop bad stuff from happening by simply banning guns. You have to have adequate mental health services, intervention, and even then you can't stop someone from randomly snapping and going on a rampage. It happens the world over.

But there are other first world democracies with gun control and no reduction in personal freedoms. I strongly believe the USA should be looking to countries like the UK, Australia and New Zealand for responsible gun ownership laws and gun control. It won't prevent shootings, but it will reduce the number and severity of them.

I don't believe in banning guns - they have their uses and legitimate purposes for ownership. But a comparatively unregulated system (compared to Aus/UK/NZ) is not the answer and it's probably a good time to try and make some moves to get guns out of the community as much as possible.

Do you think people have a right to defend their homes with firearms? Not only do laws in Australia make it impossible to house a defensive weapon (guns must be kept unloaded, ammo in separate safes) but the act of using a gun defensively, even in ones own home is a crime.
 
Well, full autos are so expensive and hard to get that usually only gun enthusiasts or collectors have them. Full autos obtained by criminals are usually illegally modified or stolen. If you're talking about a semi-automatic, such as the AR-15 that the killer scum used in the shooting today, then you're also looking at problems with determining what should be allowed and what shouldn't. There are semi-auto hunting shotguns that are really common for example. Again though, the vast majority of people who own an AR-15 are not violent.. It's a fun gun to target shoot with so that's why most people seem to have them.

IMO this is what needs to happen...

1. Private selling of guns should be handled through a licensed firearms dealer who can administer the same background check that a person would need for buying a gun in a store. That applies to gun shows too, which, while fun, are an insult to gun laws.

2. Mandatory psychiatric evaluation. You would need a signature from a psychiatrist, which would be part of what would allow you to purchase a gun. This would need to be renewed every few years.

3. More extensive background checks, and the ability for dealers to refuse to sell a gun to someone if they feel the person would not use the gun responsibly.

4. Mandatory gun safety class. I took hunters/gun safety when I was pretty young (around 13 maybe) and it was a fantastic and eye-opening experience. At my then young age by law I was not allowed to have a hunting license without taking the class. But imo EVERYONE should have to take the class before buying a gun.

5. Change the minimum buying age for long guns from 18 to 21, making it the same as handguns.

6. The combination of the evaluation and gun safety class would allow you to have a license to buy a gun. The more extensive background checks for ALL weapon sales would help prevent criminals from buying guns from gun shows or private sellers, as anyone who sells illegally could be charged in a resulting crime. You need a license to buy a car, and you should need one to buy a gun too. Law-abiding gun owners like myself should have NO issue with such a proposal if it meant saving lives. If you can afford a $1000 AR-15 you should be able to afford a safety class and and a visit to a psychiatrist.



Uh, yes there have been. Both here and on other forums.
This one is problematic I think. I agree with the rest. Psych evals looking for what? You need to decide which mental illnesses are exclusionary, and then is there grounds for appeal after a negative eval? If so, how do you prevent people doctor shopping? Psychological evaluations are not a solid predictor of discrete behaviours.

I know you can't stop bad stuff from happening by simply banning guns. You have to have adequate mental health services, intervention, and even then you can't stop someone from randomly snapping and going on a rampage. It happens the world over.

But there are other first world democracies with gun control and no reduction in personal freedoms. I strongly believe the USA should be looking to countries like the UK, Australia and New Zealand for responsible gun ownership laws and gun control. It won't prevent shootings, but it will reduce the number and severity of them.

I don't believe in banning guns - they have their uses and legitimate purposes for ownership. But a comparatively unregulated system (compared to Aus/UK/NZ) is not the answer and it's probably a good time to try and make some moves to get guns out of the community as much as possible.

My understanding is that NZ has much looser gun laws than the UK/Australia. Not US style, but still different.
 
I don´t ever think i will understand the Americans who have a pro guns mentality. I mean seriously, the reason i hear is that you need to protect your family, but what´s the purpose of the police then? Why the hell spend billions of dollars on law reinforcements when you can protect your own family? When you live in a country that is ruled by the rule of law, the police are the only ones who should be having guns to protect people. The thinking of some Americans that i need to protect my own in a country where the rule of law is upheld and enforced, belongs to the dark ages where you needed weapons to protect ones own family.

I guess it´s all different cultures and all. But something is needed to be done prevent or at least limit these kind of tragedies.

You mean the police who can show up incredibly late once the crime has already been committed? Maybe you should try living in Oakland.
 
Do you think people have a right to defend their homes with firearms? Not only do laws in Australia make it impossible to house a defensive weapon (guns must be kept unloaded, ammo in separate safes) but the act of using a gun defensively, even in ones own home is a crime.

Doesn't basic gun safety say that you never keep a loaded gun in the house? I do see a problem with the second part of what you're saying though. The fact is though that we do have to do something. While Australia's laws might be too onerous ours are too lax, there needs to be a middle ground and we need to move there.

This one is problematic I think. I agree with the rest. Psych evals looking for what? You need to decide which mental illnesses are exclusionary, and then is there grounds for appeal after a negative eval? If so, how do you prevent people doctor shopping? Psychological evaluations are not a solid predictor of discrete behaviours.

You just certify certain doctors and tell them if the person has a history of violence or may commit an act of violence then they fail. If you get a negative eval why not just have them wait 6 months and try again, this time being assigned a different doctor?
 
Doesn't basic gun safety say that you never keep a loaded gun in the house? I do see a problem with the second part of what you're saying though. The fact is though that we do have to do something. While Australia's laws might be too onerous ours are too lax, there needs to be a middle ground and we need to move there.

Home defense guns must be kept loaded, motor skills under stress are too poor to reliably load any weapon without real training. That doesn't mean leaving on the kitchen table, but those two requirements mean people are completely helpless in a home invasion.

Yes there's a middle ground. People in Australia that wrote the gun laws knew nothing about them, and it shows.
 
You just certify certain doctors and tell them if the person has a history of violence or may commit an act of violence then they fail. If you get a negative eval why not just have them wait 6 months and try again, this time being assigned a different doctor?

Yeah, okay, but what are the criteria for 'may commit an act of violence'? Psychology/psychiatry is not really able to predict future behaviour as specifically as that.
 
Do you think people have a right to defend their homes with firearms? Not only do laws in Australia make it impossible to house a defensive weapon (guns must be kept unloaded, ammo in separate safes) but the act of using a gun defensively, even in ones own home is a crime.

It's also very rare to see people killed in their own homes in Australia, especially with guns by intruders. Yes, it happens, but not frequently even according to the more alarmist segments of our media.
 
It's also very rare to see people killed in their own homes in Australia, especially with guns by intruders. Yes, it happens, but not frequently even according to the more alarmist segments of our media.

I'm interested in my safety, and the safety of those I care about first. Ask people in the poorer areas of Sydney how rare home invasions are. Australia has comparatively low crime, but it still happens with alarming frequency is some areas. Wealthy suburbs are safe, those without that luxury are in greater danger.
 
Port Arthur, Australia 1996: Martin Bryant kills 35 people and injures 23 with a semi-automatic rifle.

John Howard, Australian Prime Minister, steps in and introduces strong gun control legislation, a buy-back program, and the absolute totalitarian control of all semi-automatic rifles within the country.

Sidenote: Martin Bryan suffered from intellectual disabilities.

Monash University, 2002: Huan Yun "Allen" Xiang shot up his classmates and a teacher. Killing 2 and injuring 5.

Armed with 6 loaded handguns. Xiang had exploited a loophole in gun control laws and was a licensed member of the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia in April 2002.

Sidenote: Xiang was suffering from paranoid delusions and is serving out his 25 year term in a psychiatric hospital.

John Howard, initiated another review of Australian gun laws after it was discovered that Xiang had acquired his firearms legally. The Victorian State Government prepared new laws doubling the punishment for misuse of handguns and introducing new laws against trafficking in handguns after the shooting, and all other states followed.

Number of massacres Australia has had since then pertaining to an individual able to acquire a firearm through a legal vendor: 0.

One thing to note from the Monash university article...

Shooting massacres in Australia and other English-speaking countries often occurred close together in time. Forensic psychiatrists attribute this to copycat behaviour, which is in many cases triggered by sensational media treatment. Mass murderers study media reports and imitate the actions and equipment that are sensationalised in them. The Monash shooting occurred at the height of publicity for the Beltway sniper attacks, which was extremely prominent from 3 October to the arrest of the perpetrators on 24 October 2002, three days after the Monash shootings.

Home safety in Australia? Yeah we have that. It's called a Cricket Bat. We also have fuck all home invasions and very little reason to use them.
 
Port Arthur, Australia 1996: Martin Bryant kills 35 people and injures 23 with a semi-automatic rifle.

John Howard, Australian Prime Minister, steps in and introduces strong gun control legislation, a buy-back program, and the absolute totalitarian control of all semi-automatic rifles within the country.

Sidenote: Martin Bryan suffered from intellectual disabilities.

Monash University, 2002: Huan Yun "Allen" Xiang shot up his classmates and a teacher. Killing 2 and injuring 5.

Armed with 6 loaded handguns. Xiang had exploited a loophole in gun control laws and was a licensed member of the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia in April 2002.

Sidenote: Xiang was suffering from paranoid delusions and is serving out his 25 year term in a psychiatric hospital.

John Howard, initiated another review of Australian gun laws after it was discovered that Xiang had acquired his firearms legally. The Victorian State Government prepared new laws doubling the punishment for misuse of handguns and introducing new laws against trafficking in handguns after the shooting, and all other states followed.

Number of massacres Australia has had since then pertaining to an individual able to acquire a firearm through a legal vendor: 0.

One thing to note from the Monash university article...



Home safety in Australia? Yeah we have that. It's called a Cricket Bat. We also have fuck all home invasions and very little reason to use them.

What loophole was that?
 
Yeah, okay, but what are the criteria for 'may commit an act of violence'? Psychology/psychiatry is not really able to predict future behaviour as specifically as that.

I'm not a psychologist, but for example if you're a sociopath then obviously you shouldn't have a gun. You'd need to get some people a lot more well versed in human psychology than us together to figure it out.
 
I'm not a psychologist, but for example if you're a sociopath then obviously you shouldn't have a gun. You'd need to get some people a lot more well versed in human psychology than us together to figure it out.

I'm a bit versed in psychology, and it is not as simple as some people seem to want it to be.
 
I'm interested in my safety, and the safety of those I care about first. Ask people in the poorer areas of Sydney how rare home invasions are. Australia has comparatively low crime, but it still happens with alarming frequency is some areas. Wealthy suburbs are safe, those without that luxury are in greater danger.

I'm not denying it happens, but it is less common so far as what is reported in the media goes. Simply speaking (I'm more than open to being proven wrong with stats though) the fewer guns you have, the less likely a fatal home invasion is to occur. Burglaries still happen, rapes, assaults and murder by other means still happen. But without the imbalance of an intruder armed with a gun, against a home owner who might not be, the chance of a fatality would surely be reduced.

I know it still happens. Every few months the sensationalist news report on pensioners being assaulted and robbed at home. Sometimes they die as a result. But it truely is rare to see a shooting of any sort in Australia that isn't tied to drug crime, which is usually like-on-like rather than against random members of the public.

I think having fewer guns is simply a way to create a safer society and I would assume the stats bear this out (I don't know where to look though, hopefully someone will).
 
If so, how do you prevent people doctor shopping? Psychological evaluations are not a solid predictor of discrete behaviours.

I agree that the evaluation itself is tricky, but no psychiatrist is going to sign off on someone they suspect wants to buy a gun and use it to kill people. The media would be so far down their throat for OK'ing that person. Also they'd likely face criminal charges and they'd lose their practice for sure and they'd be nationally infamous... It would be such a massive lose scenario for any psychiatrist they wouldn't OK iffy people.
 
ugh if the guns were bought legally then yes it would have.

Yes crazy people will exist either way but at least with gun control they won't be able to kill as many in such short amount of time.

Man to me it seems such an obvious thing, I don't understand how people still defend gun ownership after every single one of these events happens and the guy bought them legally.
 
I agree that the evaluation itself is tricky, but no psychiatrist is going to sign off on someone they suspect wants to buy a gun and use it to kill people. The media would be so far down their throat for OK'ing that person. Also they'd likely face criminal charges and they'd lose their practice for sure and they'd be nationally infamous... It would be such a massive lose scenario for any psychiatrist they wouldn't OK iffy people.

And then (in the US at least), someone would sue them for infringing constitutional rights with no proof or something, and we'd be back at square one.
 
I'm not denying it happens, but it is less common so far as what is reported in the media goes. Simply speaking (I'm more than open to being proven wrong with stats though) the fewer guns you have, the less likely a fatal home invasion is to occur. Burglaries still happen, rapes, assaults and murder by other means still happen. But without the imbalance of an intruder armed with a gun, against a home owner who might not be, the chance of a fatality would surely be reduced.

I know it still happens. Every few months the sensationalist news report on pensioners being assaulted and robbed at home. Sometimes they die as a result. But it truely is rare to see a shooting of any sort in Australia that isn't tied to drug crime, which is usually like-on-like rather than against random members of the public.

I think having fewer guns is simply a way to create a safer society and I would assume the stats bear this out (I don't know where to look though, hopefully someone will).

I don't care about the media, the number still isn't zero. I claim the right to defend my home no matter how unlikely. The states responsibility isn't to make all people as safe as possible undermall circumstances, we have to counterbalance that with individual rights. Australia is a country with media censorship and a general philosophy of state empowerment over individual rights. Without a fourth amendment the police have power that they wouldn't dream of having in the US.

It's a great country, but this nanny state crap goes on all day long. You have to look at gun ownership from the perspective of the individual as well.
 
I'm a bit versed in psychology, and it is not as simple as some people seem to want it to be.

I'd imagine it would be quite difficult to tell if anyone has any psychological issues during 1 (30 minutes - 1 hour?) session.

Instead of a psychological examination to get a license, we should simply put more emphasis on getting people with psychological issues help when it becomes apparent to their loved ones, co-workers, etc
 
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