Love To Love You Baby
Member
agrajag said:
The example given wasn't "attractive cousin" - it was mother/father/sister/brother, LOL.
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Would you date a woman who used to be a man?
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The example given wasn't "attractive cousin" - it was mother/father/sister/brother, LOL.
Love To Love You Baby said:
The example basically asks you if you would do something you consider utterly disgusting. Many straight people consider gay sex utterly disgusting, and it has nothing to do with homophobia. For example, I would find having sex with some decrepit granny utterly disgusting, but it isn't a phobia. And I sure as hell would not have sex with her on a deserted island.
PrivateWHudson
Member
Love To Love You Baby said:
Right...he was just giving you the straight guy level o' disgust meter.
random hot chick
hot cousin
random chick
cousin
sister/homosexual encounter
mother
brother
father
Night_Trekker
Member
karasu said:
karasu
Likes his fat guys jiggly
;P
Love To Love You Baby
Member
agrajag said:
But see, I don't find straight sex appealing and would never partake in it myself, but I don't find either "utterly disgusting" or nowhere near compared to sleeping with a dead person, or a family member, or whatever other gross thing you can think of.
^^remilia^^
Member
karasu said:
I think that this particular statement is particularly revealing of the perspective mismatch that's driving this entire conversation. From your perspective, going out with the trans-girl would be ignoring his sexual preferences and embracing the illusion. From mine, *not* going out with her would be ignoring reality and denying his sexual preferences.
In the OP's situation, the guy met a nice girl that he found himself attracted to. She's passed the sexual preference test. Whatever it is that turns him on, be it a certain breast size/shape, a certain type of facial structure, whatever, has worked its magic on him. His little partner has voted "yes, please", and he's asking for her phone number so he can have a follow-up visit.
It would be entirely in-line with his sexual preferences to pursue the relationship. Yes, I know he's strictly heterosexual, but that's a bit of a red herring. After all, his wang is going to respond to the phenotype being expressed, not the girl's genotype. How would he know what her genetic layout looks like? Can he tell that she's carrying recessive traits that might disgust him? Maybe her mother has some horrible genetic aberration that skipped a generation! His wang will never know.
The reality of the situation is that he's talking to a person who happens to carry many of the physical traits that he finds physically attractive. I think that if there's any denial going on here, it's the various claims that those traits would magically lose all of their attraction when attached to an XY DNA stream. Sorry, but even if the boobs aren't original-issue, the boner's still real. Wangs simply aren't that discriminating.
Love To Love You Baby
Member
agrajag said:
And again, I think the disconnect here is on the basis of at very least environmental factors - not that straight men are genetically predisposed to be more disgusted by gay sex than gay men are to be by straight sex.
PrivateWHudson said:
:lol Fair enough
PrivateWHudson
Member
^^remilia^^ said:
It's not that simple though. Your wang may not know the XY DNA stream, but in the real world, once you know your brain starts adding the info. When you look at the long sexy legs, your brain will fill in long sexy MAN legs. That's when you would have to consciously override your innate sexual preference.
PrivateWHudson
Member
Love To Love You Baby said:
Maybe environmental factors have just made gay men less disgusted by straight sex than the really should be?
Love To Love You Baby
Member
agrajag said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but I'm assuming that what you mean is that most gay guys went through some period of being closeted and have had to identify with heterosexuality at some point (if even superficially). Even if we take that as being relevant to notions of disgust, your example still proves my point that environmental factors play into varying levels of disgust.
Of course I don't speak for the entire community, and some of my friends are more grossed out by things than I am - but they've certainly seen straight sex scenes and straight (or lesbian) kissing in movies and have never communicated their disgust to me. Certainly not to the extent that straight guys do to the gay variant of either.
PrivateWHudson said:
I think that's possible (although I wouldn't consider it necessarily much better of an alternative), but I'd like to think that deep down people are more mellow about such things.
I also think we have to bring up the example of lesbianism/bisexuality in females are being considered more acceptable/less "gross" on a broader societal level simply because straight men find it attractive.
Night_Trekker
Member
PrivateWHudson said:
You mean would be, right?
Just a personal theory here, feel free to tear it to pieces GayGAF: figuring out your sexual identity would be a somewhat different process for homosexuals than it is for heterosexuals. We live in a world that celebrates heterosexuality on a large scale. Kids aren't told, "you're just confused, give being gay a try." Heterosexuality is the norm and homosexuality is considered a deviance from that norm.
So many people tell homosexuals to "try" being straight, and I think because of social pressure many homosexuals feel like they should try it. They confront and learn about their sexual identities in a different way than heterosexuals do, and they grow up surrounded by a culture that tells them, "heterosexuality is normal." So maybe that explains the difference of feeling that a heterosexual male has about gay sex, something they've (generally speaking) never really thought about before, at least not on the same level.
This isn't even to get into bisexuality. Imagine being bisexual: you would have no concept of the feeling heterosexuals feel when faced with the idea of homosexual sex, or even any understand of being just straight or gay. Everyone else would probably look horribly judgmental and uptight for not "giving it a try".
flintstryker
Banned
see this is where you're wrong, its my goddamn body i decides what's ok and what isn't.Solideliquid said:
Shouta
Member
PrivateWHudson said:
That's a conscious creation though, imagining man legs after finding out I mean.
I think remilia's ultimate point, correct me if I'm wrong, is that sexual preference is ultimately based on the female phenotype and the female gender as opposed to genotype. Your body reacts to that and that's what you're attracted to. However, because of a number of reasons, be it natural or perhaps even social, folks reject it because of the genotype.
So from that, the way I see it is that if saying you're not attracted to a transgendered individual because they're genetically male is denying your own sexual preference. There's nothing wrong with not pursuing or engaging in a relationship with a transgendered individual but arguing it from a sexual preference, at least the bodily ones, standpoint doesn't work because they hold the aspects that are attractive.
I mean, you wouldn't be sexually attracted to some Jack Gyllenhal (if you're a hetero guy) if he was genetically female, would you? Said person would have to have the feminine aspects that you like.
Love To Love You Baby
Member
Night_Trekker said:
While I don't think that covers every intricacy of the situation, I think that's a reasonable assessment. Certainly gay people have a more complicated road to meaning what it means to be gay than straight people have in what it means to be straight.
The reason why I bring homophobia into this discussion is kind of, but not fully, based on what you said: "We live in a world that celebrates heterosexuality on a large scale." Our society is one that actively promotes heterosexuality, and is one that actively tells us that being gay is wrong. That's a message that strikes deeper for gay people, for sure, but of course it's one that has an affect on straight people as well. I think one way (but certainly not the only way, or even the most prominent way) that the culture was a whole disparages homosexuality (in the case of male-male homosexuality, anyway) is that it promotes the notion that it is gross. Of course straight men aren't going to find male-male homosexuality sexually appealing, and that's perfectly legitimate, but I think society at large makes the "disgusting" element to it more exaggerated than it otherwise would be. Clearly we've at least heard some blatantly homophobic rhetoric that played up the "gross" angle.
For me, as a gay man, I think that I find heterosexuality unappealing but not outright disgusting because I'm both so used to the notion, and because I've been told countless times how positive it is. But I'd like to think I also wouldn't be disgusted by it otherwise - that maybe gay people are too propagandized to value heterosexuality, but people on end end of the spectrum are more relaxed about such things deep down.
And agrajag, I appreciate the nuance you have between what other people do and what you would do yourself - as not all straight men operate in such a way and would find any instance of male-male homosexuality intolerable.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
it seems like it would be a good solution for someone that is bisexual.
Schrade
Member
I find seafood gross and disgusting yet other people love to eat it and smell it. No matter what someone will get offended by that (Yes, about seafood!) just like people get offended by heterosexuals thinking homosexual stuff is gross. People have different preferences and choose to express themselves about it in many ways.Love To Love You Baby said:
kame-sennin
Member
I think answering 'no' to this question does concede a certain degree of transphobia or homophobia, whether you want to admit it or not. The way I see it, the issue breaks down to this:
1. Attraction isn't a choice. If you saw a women and were physically attracted to her (as was the case in the OP), than you have already conceded that you are capable of having sex with her. Without splitting hairs (how attracted you have to be to be ready for sex), the act of being attracted means that your body is in a state of arousal and you "want" to have sex in the purely biological sense...
2. So what is the basis for choosing not to have sex with someone you are attracted to? In this case it is because the person used to be a man. Stating that you are repulsed simply by the knowledge of an individuals past state, regardless of your current attraction shows that you have a mental aversion to the concept of male-male or transgendered relations. In other words, you are refusing to have sex with someone not because of your hetero-sexual sexual preferences - said preferences have in fact caused you to become attracted - but because the idea of homosexual/transgendered relations offends you. How is this not transphobia?
It's also foolish to say you'll never have sex with a transgendered person ahead of time. You don't know who you'll meet in the future or how you'll feel when you do.
1. Attraction isn't a choice. If you saw a women and were physically attracted to her (as was the case in the OP), than you have already conceded that you are capable of having sex with her. Without splitting hairs (how attracted you have to be to be ready for sex), the act of being attracted means that your body is in a state of arousal and you "want" to have sex in the purely biological sense...
2. So what is the basis for choosing not to have sex with someone you are attracted to? In this case it is because the person used to be a man. Stating that you are repulsed simply by the knowledge of an individuals past state, regardless of your current attraction shows that you have a mental aversion to the concept of male-male or transgendered relations. In other words, you are refusing to have sex with someone not because of your hetero-sexual sexual preferences - said preferences have in fact caused you to become attracted - but because the idea of homosexual/transgendered relations offends you. How is this not transphobia?
It's also foolish to say you'll never have sex with a transgendered person ahead of time. You don't know who you'll meet in the future or how you'll feel when you do.
favouriteflavour
Member
I'm going with I'm not ruling it out. I can't say yes without knowing how much of a mental stumbling block it would be.
ChackanKun
Member
This thread is full of traps xD
Depends on the situation. If my girlfriend comes to me and say "hey, i used to be a man so..." i would KICK HER IN THE FREAKING HEAD TILL SHE DIED!
Kidding, i would accept it prolly, but just because emotions are already installed since we are together for years.
Depends on the situation. If my girlfriend comes to me and say "hey, i used to be a man so..." i would KICK HER IN THE FREAKING HEAD TILL SHE DIED!
Kidding, i would accept it prolly, but just because emotions are already installed since we are together for years.
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
davepoobond said:
But can the supply meet the demand?
Propagandhim
Banned
kame-sennin said:
It's not like a magic faerie came by and threw faerie dust on some guy and turned her into a beautiful girl. I can see how a guy would still think the woman still has a bit of 'man' in her (whether or not it's really the case).
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
Propagandhim said:
Dude, wouldn't that just make things better?
Well I originally made this topic out of an interest to see how common my friend's reaction was (pretty common, it seems).
I've ended up exposing some pretty awful attitudes and assumptions about transwomen. I've done some reading and research online about the topic as a result, and wanted to address some of the things that have been said here.
I just want to stress I am *not* trying to change anyone's mind about whether they'd date a transwoman, but I also don't want to be complicit in allowing mistruths to spread about a group of people who already face massive challenges in life.
So, to address some of the things said here:
1 - The Neo-Vagina
a) The penile inversion method of creating the vagina is being phased out in favor of a newer more complex technique, which gives the patient a regular-looking vagina, located in the same place as a natal woman's, with the same angle of entry. Everything listed below refers to the type of vagina created by this newer method.
b) A Neo-Vagina has all the parts of a regular vagina, except the cervix, which is right up the back and completely undetectable and irrelevant in so far as how the sex act feels.
c) You would not feel or see any difference between it and a natal vagina, keeping in mind that there is no one standard natal vagina - that they vary in shape and size and proportion quite a bit.
d) It smells like a regular vagina, and orgasm is possible, including ejaculation. It does self-lubricate to an extent, however additional lubricant may be needed in some cases.
e) It does NOT look like something has been cut up and put back together.
f) In short, only a gynecological exam would reveal that it is not a natal vagina.
Pictures and a description of the procedure are available at:
(NSFW)
http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/Results.aspx
Remember that you don't normally see vaginas so up-close and presented in such a cold, medical type of way, unless you are a gyno or watch some really weird porn, so be prepared to be confronted.
g) The vaginal cavity *will* shrink over time if it is not stretched regularly. After the first year or so this involves using a vibrator-like device for 30 minutes once a week. If the transsexual is having sex regularly they don't need to worry about it.
2 - "At least you'd get anal sex"
There is no reason why a post-op transsexual would be any more inclined towards anal sex than an average woman as she has a vagina for sexual penetration, just like any other woman. If you're talking pre-op, then yes, you'd probably get to have anal sex, but as many natal woman are willing to do this it's hardly a reason to date a trans woman.
3 - "Man-sweat"
After being on hormone therapy for a while these types of biological processes change. Sweat, urine and sexual fluids lose that "musky" scent that men have. Skin also becomes softer as female hormones cause more fat to be distributed to just under the skin. Body hair falls out, and what doesn't is thinner and lighter (legs, underarms etc). Some need electrolysis to remove hair if they were hirsute men.
4 - Does the beard still grow after hormones are added?
Yes it will, unless the person gets laser and electrolysis done on their face to permanently remove the hair. Most do this early on in the process before they have the "big operation", as hair on the face feels "wrong".
5 - They are still a man even if they have boobs and a vagina.
This is a personal opinion, and if you feel that a woman must have a particular genetic code to really be a woman, then I am not here to convince you otherwise.
I will say though, that whatever your personal opinion is, I think it is extremely disrespectful to persist in calling a male-to-female transsexual "he" and "him". It is not like they wake up on a whim and decide they are women.
A post-op male to female transsexual has to spend about 100,000 dollars to get electrolysis, hormones, sexual reassignment surgery, and facial feminization surgery - surgeries which are extensively invasive, risky and take a few years to recover from. They have to completely re-learn how to talk and move and dress. They have to go through a period of looking like a man in a dress and take all sorts of abuse and ridicule and discrimination before they can become "passable" as a woman, and they often have to give up marriages, family and friends who can't accept their transition. Many move to a new place to start life over because they face so much rejection where they come from. You can see in this thread how difficult it then must be to find someone to love them.
I think if someone is willing to sacrifice so much to be perceived as a particular gender, then we should respect that and use the pronouns that they wish to be called by.
I started this topic out of a kind of detached interest in my friend's attitude to this woman he met, but it has really opened my eyes to the plight of transsexuals. I hope this post has helped educate someone by dispelling some of the myths about them. I know I've learned a lot.
I've ended up exposing some pretty awful attitudes and assumptions about transwomen. I've done some reading and research online about the topic as a result, and wanted to address some of the things that have been said here.
I just want to stress I am *not* trying to change anyone's mind about whether they'd date a transwoman, but I also don't want to be complicit in allowing mistruths to spread about a group of people who already face massive challenges in life.
So, to address some of the things said here:
1 - The Neo-Vagina
a) The penile inversion method of creating the vagina is being phased out in favor of a newer more complex technique, which gives the patient a regular-looking vagina, located in the same place as a natal woman's, with the same angle of entry. Everything listed below refers to the type of vagina created by this newer method.
b) A Neo-Vagina has all the parts of a regular vagina, except the cervix, which is right up the back and completely undetectable and irrelevant in so far as how the sex act feels.
c) You would not feel or see any difference between it and a natal vagina, keeping in mind that there is no one standard natal vagina - that they vary in shape and size and proportion quite a bit.
d) It smells like a regular vagina, and orgasm is possible, including ejaculation. It does self-lubricate to an extent, however additional lubricant may be needed in some cases.
e) It does NOT look like something has been cut up and put back together.
f) In short, only a gynecological exam would reveal that it is not a natal vagina.
Pictures and a description of the procedure are available at:
(NSFW)
http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/SRS/Results.aspx
Remember that you don't normally see vaginas so up-close and presented in such a cold, medical type of way, unless you are a gyno or watch some really weird porn, so be prepared to be confronted.
g) The vaginal cavity *will* shrink over time if it is not stretched regularly. After the first year or so this involves using a vibrator-like device for 30 minutes once a week. If the transsexual is having sex regularly they don't need to worry about it.
2 - "At least you'd get anal sex"
There is no reason why a post-op transsexual would be any more inclined towards anal sex than an average woman as she has a vagina for sexual penetration, just like any other woman. If you're talking pre-op, then yes, you'd probably get to have anal sex, but as many natal woman are willing to do this it's hardly a reason to date a trans woman.
3 - "Man-sweat"
After being on hormone therapy for a while these types of biological processes change. Sweat, urine and sexual fluids lose that "musky" scent that men have. Skin also becomes softer as female hormones cause more fat to be distributed to just under the skin. Body hair falls out, and what doesn't is thinner and lighter (legs, underarms etc). Some need electrolysis to remove hair if they were hirsute men.
4 - Does the beard still grow after hormones are added?
Yes it will, unless the person gets laser and electrolysis done on their face to permanently remove the hair. Most do this early on in the process before they have the "big operation", as hair on the face feels "wrong".
5 - They are still a man even if they have boobs and a vagina.
This is a personal opinion, and if you feel that a woman must have a particular genetic code to really be a woman, then I am not here to convince you otherwise.
I will say though, that whatever your personal opinion is, I think it is extremely disrespectful to persist in calling a male-to-female transsexual "he" and "him". It is not like they wake up on a whim and decide they are women.
A post-op male to female transsexual has to spend about 100,000 dollars to get electrolysis, hormones, sexual reassignment surgery, and facial feminization surgery - surgeries which are extensively invasive, risky and take a few years to recover from. They have to completely re-learn how to talk and move and dress. They have to go through a period of looking like a man in a dress and take all sorts of abuse and ridicule and discrimination before they can become "passable" as a woman, and they often have to give up marriages, family and friends who can't accept their transition. Many move to a new place to start life over because they face so much rejection where they come from. You can see in this thread how difficult it then must be to find someone to love them.
I think if someone is willing to sacrifice so much to be perceived as a particular gender, then we should respect that and use the pronouns that they wish to be called by.
I started this topic out of a kind of detached interest in my friend's attitude to this woman he met, but it has really opened my eyes to the plight of transsexuals. I hope this post has helped educate someone by dispelling some of the myths about them. I know I've learned a lot.
ChackanKun
Member
yacobod said:
Anyway, it would be worse if "she" still had a peins amirite?
Flakster99
Member
Uh.................................
JimiNutz
Banned
Without a second thought.
If I was attracted to 'her' and we got on really well then why not?
She'd have to have breasts and I don't think I'd be too happy if it still had a penis, but I see no reason why I shouldn't date somebody based solely on who they used to be.
If people judged me based on my past I'd probably never get laid again so it would be hypocritical of me to do the same. What is important is who they are at the moment, and if they're currently a hot women, that I get on really well with, I'd consider myself stupid if I turned them down.
Of course this is all theory and I cannot say for sure because I've never met such a 'woman.'
If I was attracted to 'her' and we got on really well then why not?
She'd have to have breasts and I don't think I'd be too happy if it still had a penis, but I see no reason why I shouldn't date somebody based solely on who they used to be.
If people judged me based on my past I'd probably never get laid again so it would be hypocritical of me to do the same. What is important is who they are at the moment, and if they're currently a hot women, that I get on really well with, I'd consider myself stupid if I turned them down.
Of course this is all theory and I cannot say for sure because I've never met such a 'woman.'
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