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[More Fun To Compute]

He asked what their canonical explanation would be, so I'm guessing at it.

OK. I'll let you off, but I have my eye on you.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

You have to hold everything you're looting.

I always figured that was for dedicated salvage crews to deal with, especially given that much of the stuff you're looting is the actual UFO hulls, engines etc that are often far larger than your craft.

 

[Versipellis]

Not really. You allocating soldiers to a role is emergent gameplay while a class based rpg system is the designers explicitly telling you what to do.

I'd say that a class system is more 'realistic', given the fact that you're controlling a squad of trained soldiers.
The original one constantly gives you the impression you're overseeing a ragtag group of disorganized guys with a gun (it's something more suited for a survival game - which X-Com is, in some aspects). Yet, it's difficult to say the latter didn't work, both story-wise and gameplay-wise .
I may be a bit nostalgic here (and I am), but your men evolving in a particular way just because you loaded them with heavy weapons during a mission was probably one of the charms of EU and I fear we may lose it in this XCOM.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I'd say that a class system is more 'realistic', given the fact that you're controlling a squad of trained soldiers.
The original one constantly gives you the impression you're overseeing a ragtag group of disorganized guys with a gun (it's something more suited for a survival game - which X-Com is, in some aspects). Yet, it's difficult to say the latter didn't work, both story-wise and gameplay-wise .
I may be a bit nostalgic here (and I am), but your men evolving in a particular way just because you loaded them with heavy weapons during a mission was probably one of the charms of EU and I fear we may lose it in this XCOM.

On the other hand, you're not just dealing with trained soldiers but the best that the world has to offer (allegedly, damn rookies). Even in ordinary military situations, the designated marksman attached to a squad is still a good shot with an ordinary rifle, and has at least been familiarized with a SAW / explosive weapons. People have things they're good at, which is ideally what they're assigned to, but they can also do other things if the need arises.

A better system would be to keep the classless nature of the original X-Com, but have "suggested roles" for them, and icons that indicate what they are above-average at doing and what their best trait is.

 

[Llyranor]

Everything that Firaxis has shown so far indicates that any 'dumbing down' is limited solely to removing over-designed rules. For example, the original's Time Units have been removed for a simple move+action (or double move) for each unit. The idea is to let players still make the same decisions - move here, shoot that - without having to precisely calculate steps taken and type of shots fired in order to optimize that final five percent of combat effciency.

Dear Firaxis,

Move-act is *fine*, really. Plenty of SRPGs and other TB games use it, and I love plenty of those. I can see why some people are not bothered by it. BUT, this will make this new Xcom a mere shadow of what old Xcom when it comes to tactical flexibility. I am not talking about number-crunching that last 5%, I am talking about being able to look around your environment, because the enemy could be anywhere. Xcom was a very tense game, and this helped create that atmosphere.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I'd say that a class system is more 'realistic', given the fact that you're controlling a squad of trained soldiers.
The original one constantly gives you the impression you're overseeing a ragtag group of disorganized guys with a gun (it's something more suited for a survival game - which X-Com is, in some aspects). Yet, it's difficult to say the latter didn't work, both story-wise and gameplay-wise .
I may be a bit nostalgic here (and I am), but your men evolving in a particular way just because you loaded them with heavy weapons during a mission was probably one of the charms of EU and I fear we may lose it in this XCOM.

I believed that the soldiers I was recruiting should have been like the cream of the special forces of the world and not people who were unfit and only worked out how to shoot a gun after a real mission. But the game worked and I don't see how classes are any more realistic. It's just less suspicious for people who are used to class based RPGs.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Given that you unlock more people, they might have actually just reversed that flow.

As in, it starts easier and gets harder.

Possibly, but I'm not sure where that leaves the satisfying arc of a game of EU:

Starting with a group of inexperienced rookies and cheap human-made equipment, your only advantage in numbers. Early missions against even low-level enemies like the Sectoids can be incredibly dangerous and each month is a struggle to keep downing craft and recovering what you can, slowly building your forces and better equipping them, all as the aliens step up their invasion and you face tougher enemies and larger craft.

An ideal game of EU keeps a balance between putting the aliens in a position of clear superiority and giving you the tech and skills to fight back on their level. Just as you get comfortable tackling one threat, another emerges, or the tech you face goes up a notch - Sectoids to Mutons, or plasma weapons to blaster bombs - and even as you enter the endgame your soldiers are always just good enough, and you're rarely in a position where your force is totally in control - and events can spiral out of control with a single cleverly-placed grenade, or a psychically-weak trooper.

It's not necessarily that the game became easier as you progressed, more that it became fairer - you started to face the aliens on something more like a level footing, but they were still a formidable force.

I believed that the soldiers I was recruiting should have been like the cream of the special forces of the world and not people who were unfit and only worked out how to shoot a gun after a real mission. But the game worked and I don't see how classes are any more realistic. It's just less suspicious for people who are used to class based RPGs.

My explanation for the shitiness of the rookies was that - even though they were experienced soldiers - they had never faced this kind of enemy before, and that accounted for their inability to fire a rifle worth a damn on their first sight of a real alien.

;-)

 

[Versipellis]

A better system would be to keep the classless nature of the original X-Com, but have "suggested roles" for them, and icons that indicate what they are above-average at doing and what their best trait is.

An icon-based system showing the characters strengths and weaknesses next to the name in the soldiers menu would have been great in the original game.
You could still do something like that with nicknames, but icons would've been helpful in sorting out soldiers (a thing which EU was sorely missing).

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Dear Firaxis,

Move-act is *fine*, really. Plenty of SRPGs and other TB games use it, and I love plenty of those. I can see why some people are not bothered by it. BUT, this will make this new Xcom a mere shadow of what old Xcom when it comes to tactical flexibility. I am not talking about number-crunching that last 5%, I am talking about being able to look around your environment, because the enemy could be anywhere. Xcom was a very tense game, and this helped create that atmosphere.

*diagram*

This is all true, would definitely have preferred the ap system. I'm guessing los won't have any relation to facing, you'll just be able to see everything in a 360 degree arc.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

An icon-based system showing the characters strengths and weaknesses next to the name in the soldiers menu would have been great in the original game.
You could still do something like that with nicknames, but icons would've been helpful in sorting out soldiers (a thing which EU was sorely missing).

The original X-Com was an amazing game wrapped in a godawful, poorly explained, unintuitive UI. I'd also like to see "sort by stat" happen for the soldier list and candidate screening process. This was something featured in some of the X-Com clones that have come out in the last ten years.

 

[HK-47]

This is all true, would definitely have preferred the ap system. I'm guessing los won't have any relation to facing, you'll just be able to see everything in a 360 degree arc.

Not very tense.

 

[Llyranor]

Can someone on twitter ask a dev to clarify how line of sight would work in the game?

 

[DiscoJer]

I believed that the soldiers I was recruiting should have been like the cream of the special forces of the world and not people who were unfit and only worked out how to shoot a gun after a real mission. But the game worked and I don't see how classes are any more realistic. It's just less suspicious for people who are used to class based RPGs.

My own explanation was that the Aliens could induce a "Missing Time" field over an area, yet some people were immune to the effect, and that these people were recruited for X-com.

Sort of like how in Persona 3, some people could experience the 13th hour and some couldn't...

 

[Neuromancer]

Presumably you're modifying the Skyranger.

Yeah I'm guessing you start off being dropped off by a helicopter or a Humvee or something.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Not very tense.

Yeah, it's not ideal. Means you won't have those moments where you forget to check a corner and then get your squad wiped out by a hiding alien. Anyway, a complete guess, maybe it doesn't work like that. Just seems like it would be the way to go if you're restricted to only one movement per turn. I'm trying to remember how los works in Valkyria Chronicles, I think it may be the same there.

 

[Versipellis]

I'm trying to remember how los works in Valkyria Chronicles, I think it may be the same there.

VC lets you stop in the middle of a move, turn around and such, so it wouldn't be bad.
And LoS is not 360 degrees. You have to face enemies to see them.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

VC let's you stop mid-turn, turn around and such, so it wouldn't be bad.
And LoS is not 360 degrees. You have to face enemies to see them.

Yeah true, but I was thinking about the enemy movement phase where you can't move. And yeah, thinking about it some more you're right, the game just has a really wide arc for los.

 

[Minsc]

I don't like the sound of that :/ I'm betting that your soldiers will be much more durable than they were in the original.

Well in the screen here:

The guy here only has 11 HP, so it doesn't sound like a lot. But then again the gun he is carrying only does upto 5 damage. If it's like the first game, and the aliens have better weapons to start, that should mean you die in ~2 shots. We'll see. Also HP may scale a lot or a little, a low level guy might have 11HP, but a high level one might have 200HP or hopefully more like 20HP, so things don't get too out of control.

@abiessener Adam Biessener
@NeuromancerGAF You start at 4 and research higher limits as the game goes on.

Well, that explains it (thanks for asking btw). Hopefully 4 goes up to 20 or so, and at a quick pace!

I get it though, this game is going to be a bit different. TU changes, ability changes, squad changes, unit count changes, base number changes, we shouldn't expect it to carry too much over from the original. Well, at least it will be something new, not more of the same. Hope it works out!

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I get it though, this game is going to be a bit different. TU changes, ability changes, squad changes, unit count changes, base number changes, we shouldn't expect it to carry too much over from the original. Well, at least it will be something new, not more of the same. Hope it works out!

Yeah definitely. I'm not expecting a carbon copy of the original. I feel kind of bad for the devs because they have so much to live up to and we're going to be nitpicking at differences all the way. It's just hard not to when the original is beloved as much as it is. Still really excited for it and glad it's being made.

 

[r1chard]

Yeah definitely. I'm not expecting a carbon copy of the original. I feel kind of bad for the devs because they have so much to live up to and we're going to be nitpicking at differences all the way. It's just hard not to when the original is beloved as much as it is. Still really excited for it and glad it's being made.

Yep. Watching the video interview with the devs I got the strong impression that big critics were present in the dev/design team from the start, at all levels. If there's a criticism that GAF can come up with then it's probably already been heard internally.

Having said that I do know that lead designers are known to ignore criticism sometimes. We'll see....

 

[Almighty]

Well that is not what i wanted to hear. Four soldiers to start with seems too damn low. At least you can raise it via research and it is not limited to 4 like I originally heard, but without more info it still sounds bad. Still I like most of what they are doing so far so I will give them the benefit of the doubt for now and wait for more info and see how it all comes together first before I come to any conclusions.

 

[charlequin]

I am talking about being able to look around your environment, because the enemy could be anywhere.

I feel about manual LOS checks basically the way I feel about searching for secret doors in D&D: people who are playing at tactical optimality will do it constantly, so the system might as well abstract it out and make people focus on tactically-interesting decisions instead.

Well that is not what i wanted to hear. Four soldiers to start with seems too damn low. At least you can raise it via research and it is not limited to 4 like I originally heard, but without more info it still sounds bad.

One of the things people need to start getting used to right now is that -- very much unlike the original X-COM -- this game will be designed to ease people in and help them learn mechanics one at a time, so a lot of stuff will be simpler to start even if the overall complexity still dials up to comparable levels.

 

[Jintor]

I feel about manual LOS checks basically the way I feel about searching for secret doors in D&D: people who are playing at tactical optimality will do it constantly, so the system might as well abstract it out and make people focus on tactically-interesting decisions instead.

That's a good point.

 

[Pinko Marx]

I feel about manual LOS checks basically the way I feel about searching for secret doors in D&D: people who are playing at tactical optimality will do it constantly, so the system might as well abstract it out and make people focus on tactically-interesting decisions instead.



One of the things people need to start getting used to right now is that -- very much unlike the original X-COM -- this game will be designed to ease people in and help them learn mechanics one at a time, so a lot of stuff will be simpler to start even if the overall complexity still dials up to comparable levels.

Well said Mr. Mod.

 

[Almighty]

One of the things people need to start getting used to right now is that -- very much unlike the original X-COM -- this game will be designed to ease people in and help them learn mechanics one at a time, so a lot of stuff will be simpler to start even if the overall complexity still dials up to comparable levels.

Yes I understand that.

This game is not going to drop you into the fire like the first one did and that's fine. The worry I have is that this game will never dial up to comparable levels. All i know is that it starts you off with 4 guys and you can add more. My worry comes from how much more what is the limit. The reason 4 sounds bad to me is that it is much lower then the 14 for the original so i am thinking that the upper limit is going to be much lower as well. Then I worry that if the limit is really low say like 8 that the game would become too simple/easy among other things.

Now as I said before I need to wait for more info before I start speculating all over the place trying to fill in the many blanks. It's mostly the reason I didn't go into some long rant when I saw that four was at least the starting number. That and I also didn't want to go on some big rant only to later find out the game does go up to 20ish or that with all the changes they made you don't need 26 like you got the in original anymore and so on.

 

[charlequin]

This game is not going to drop you into the fire like the first one did and that's fine. The worry I have is that this game will never dial up to comparable levels. All i know is that it starts you off with 4 guys and you can add more. My worry comes from how much more what is the limit. The reason 4 sounds bad to me is that it is much lower then the 14 for the original so i am thinking that the upper limit is going to be much lower as well. Then I worry that if the limit is really low say like 8 that the game would become too simple/easy among other things.

Yeah, I mean, I agree with all these concerns, I just think it's too early to get worked up about it. I could easily imagine a situation where there are, say, five upgrades of 4 soldiers each -- I don't think it pays to assume they'll underwhelm on this given the way the team's talked about the original game and the fact that there's a scale-up mechanic at all.

(Conversely, the action points thing seems like a point that's reasonable to be concerned about. I'm not at all concerned personally, but I definitely see the case.)

 

[Almighty]

Yeah, I mean, I agree with all these concerns, I just think it's too early to get worked up about it. I could easily imagine a situation where there are, say, five upgrades of 4 soldiers each -- I don't think it pays to assume they'll underwhelm on this given the way the team's talked about the original game and the fact that there's a scale-up mechanic at all.

(Conversely, the action points thing seems like a point that's reasonable to be concerned about. I'm not at all concerned personally, but I definitely see the case.)

You have a point.

As for the action points for me at least the jury is still out. That is something I will definitely have to see in action first.

 

[RustyO]

Cautiously optimistic, sligth concerns over AP / multiple bases...

But, a new X-Com, oh yes!

:lol true, but a little misleading, you should have a full squad of 14 soldiers for your first mission if you want to get the gene pool going properly, as red shirts are an extremely useful commodity for taking on dangerous tasks, like leaving the transport ship.

lol. Ah, might have to do the Ironman challenge in preparation.

 

[Decado]

No action points. The game uses a move-and-shoot (or move-and-move) dynamic. They don't want people piddling around counting individual action points. Some will call this a concession to consolitis; others will call it useful streamlining.

Wow. This is terrible. Move-act-move systems only seem to work decently (though never as well as AP systems) in tactical games that rely heavily on "special skills", like Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics. Since that isn't really what X-Com is like, I guess I'll have to wait a while longer (indefinitely?) for a combat system to surpass Jagged Alliance 2.

Shit like this is what comes of dropping the AP system:

" no more Aimed/Snap/Auto shots"

Fuck. Not dumbing it down, my ass.

While I still want the game, I'm certainly not nearly as hyped about it any more. Only this that will convince me this isn't really just a console game is full mod support for PC.

 

[Tain]

I really don't see how the reworking of AP, as described, can do anything but reduce the number of important decisions to make. Doesn't sound like a good thing as it stands right now.

 

[PKrockin]

I'm going to miss micromanaging TUs. There were a lot of little actions that didn't use up much TU but were very rewarding if you used them wisely. Priming grenades and tossing them from one soldier to another, throwing electroflares, kneeling, opening doors, etc.

Having to use an AP to move just one space when I could move five is going to be just as annoying as trying to move when I only have 3 TU. If they changed it because people don't like running numbers in their head estimating how many TU running six spaces through grass costs, they could have just given you less TU but also make all actions cost less.

Instead of giving you 60TU, where moving costs 4 and shooting costs about 22, they could have gone with like 12 TU, where moving costs 1 and shooting costs 5.

Kneeling: 4, then 10 ---> 1, then 2
Going up stairs: 8-12? ---> 2-3
Medi-Kit: 10? ---> 2
Mind Probe: 20? ---> 4

Leveling it up would work the same way as it did in the old games too.

Can someone tell me what's wrong with this solution? It's both faithful to the old games and easier to understand and calculate in your head when planning moves. Someone hurry up and find a real flaw so I don't have to accept that this really is just dumbing down the game.

 

[KongRudi]

They said on PSNation that the two Gollop-brothers were involved in this aswell, if that's correct it's pretty awesome.

 

[duckroll]

I saw two more screens in the Game Informer coverage video which weren't posted. They show the realtime strategy view, and the research interface:

 

[Nirolak]

5120x2880 Version: http://images.vg247.com/current//2012/01/GasStation_ShotHUD_03.jpg

 

[TemplaerDude]

I wish this was coming out right now.

 

[Captain Bluey]

So excited for this!

Watching that Game Informer video of the creators talking about the original game, I am so happy that the developers are avid XCom fans. This is really looking to be a proper remake of series I have been waiting years for.

And its only a few months away!

 

[thetrin]

The new turn system isn't as flexible as AP or TU, but I guess I can live with it.

I really really wish they were using AP, though. It's not like console-only turn based strategy games don't use AP (see: Front Mission)

 

[I should be doing hw]

Thin Men are sweet sounding and looking enemies. When I first saw the original screens I thought that an MiB type class would be playable though. That would've been cool.

 

[Rentahamster]

I wish this was coming out right now.

I feel your pain.

 

[CecilRousso]

Really happy with the art style in this.

 

[Jintor]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: BE STILL MY BEATING HEART

Is it due out this year?

 

[Xater]

These new screenshots look way better. Can't wait to play this.

 

[Wallach]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: BE STILL MY BEATING HEART

Is it due out this year?

Yeah, it is coming out this year.

 

[derFeef]

Ohhh nice screens and quasi-happy with the squadinfo.

 

[MarkMclovin]

All I want to know is, can you change the names of everything? Well, your soldiers, ships and bases etc.

 

[mclem]

Yeah I'm guessing you start off being dropped off by a helicopter or a Humvee or something.

That'd be awesome.

"We're an international force dedicated to combating the worldwide alien threat. We've got three guys in a Dodge Durango.

Also, due to poor planning, we're stationed on Hawaii."

I keep having ideas of overarching concepts I'd like to see, particularly in the multiplayer arena. Part of me thinks it's fundamentally *wrong* to be able to control the aliens (since it'd take away some of their inherent mystique, and it'd mean each class would have to be detailed somewhere meaning there's no scope to discover them...) - but what if there was a multiplayer mode with *competing X-com groups*? Same Geoscape, multiple companies seeking the contract to defend certain countries.

And, if two companies happen to descend on a given crash site... well, sometimes gunfire goes astray...

 

[Orgun]

So my idea of going into blackout mode has already failed. Going to pre-order xenonauts this evening to get my xcom fix.

Finally, the suit guys are called Thin Men. "The Thin Man is strikingly similar to the Slender Man myths. It may be that some morphogenic race has been secretly studying humanity, and has sent these human facsimiles to Earth as spies. Unnaturally tall and slender, Thin Men are not perfect replicas.... Once engaged in battle, a Thin Man will perform acrobatic maneuvers unlike any human. Thin Men are capable of covering large swaths of ground in a single bound. Snipers should be wary of their ability to jump up several stories in a single leap. Once engaged in close quarters, the Thin Man unhinges its jaw and vomits forth a spray of corrosive putrescence... upon expiration, a Thin Man will explode in an acid shower damaging nearby equipment and field personel."

That sounds awesome and terrifying.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

So my idea of going into blackout mode has already failed. Going to pre-order xenonauts this evening to get my xcom fix.

The game is still months from being feature complete, but when you preorder you can download the WIP versions of xenonauts to try them out.

 

[kottila]

Would be great if they had just based the combat on Frozen Synapse

 

[Orgun]

The game is still months from being feature complete, but when you preorder you can download the WIP versions of xenonauts to try them out.

Yeah that's why i'm doing it