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[cyberheater]

actually ms has been dissapointing me on the whole during this whole console wars ... i mean i've interned with them and in general its a great company and people working their are great ppl who are pretty open and honest about pros and cons .... shows how much bad pr can negatively influence stuff .... ehhh

Is there any more details you can give on Xbox One? Or the thoughts that MS folks had when they found out the specs of PS4. What was their reaction. Were they confident or did they go into panic mode?

 

[nib95]

Gemüsepizza is right. Stop applying Microsoft math

2,073,600 (1080p) isn't 56% more than 921,600 (720p), it's 125% more.



Also wrong, 1080p isn't 225% more pixels than 720p It's 225% the amount.

What the hell guys, I haven't slept for over a day and you're somewhat confusing me. Wish my GTA V would hurry up and get here lol.

So 1080p is 125% more pixels than 720p...never thought mrklaw would get a maths question wrong lol.

 

[fallagin]

Well one thing that can be said for esram on top of giving the gpu extra bandwidth and some scratch pad, is that it is supposed to be pretty good for scaling down to smaller sizes. So microsoft might be able to turn the price point in their favor in 1 1/2 to 2 years.

That could be their silver lining in this whole thing.

 

[Liabe Brave]

However, internalize this and make a note of it. Xbox 360 couldn't handle Halo 3, Halo ODST and Halo Reach at 720p. All were sub 720p. And then the much superior looking Halo 4 at a true 720p happened.

The problem with that example is that two different devs were involved. Not only that, but Bungie was never known as technical powerhouse whereas 343i was specifically formed as a no-holds-barred superstudio.

PGR3 to PGR4 is a better example. But if Crytek--you know, those guys almost everyone agrees are the single most technically skilled studio in existence?--are having problems, that bodes very ill for less gifted devs in the same timeframe.

 

[uncharted86]

What the hell guys, I haven't slept for over a day and you're somewhat confusing me. Wish my GTA V would hurry up and get here lol.

So 1080p is 125% more pixels than 720p...never thought mrklaw would get a maths question wrong lol.

Yes, 1080p is 125% more pixels than 720p.

 

[nib95]

What a crap. CryEngine is scalable enough that 1080p is not a problem for Xbone.
I could understand that Crytek didnt want to compromise features on current gen consoles and released C3 in subHD, but in Ryse they had no excuse.
They are putting again graphical features over IQ and probably framerate ;\

You're killing me here! LOL. Genuinely made me laugh out loud.

 

[Oppo]

In sure it'll be "fine" but honesty that is disappointing. It's 2013. It's a brand new console.

Microsoft's graphical showpiece, this supposed tentpole release, running at sub native rez? Someone fucked up.

 

[BigDug13]

on this i disagree. kinect is a value. maybe not to hardcore gamers but it can lead to novel gameplay experiences. expecially if indies are allowed to leverage it .... its just surprising ms doesnt push that aspect rather than get into a already lost gpu/hardware battle

They're trying to appeal to Wii owners while also trying to fully appeal to 360 owners. It's tough to fight a war on two fronts, especially when you end up priced at $500 with weaker hardware and a device that has yet to be shown with some good gaming applications or an actual market who is salivating for that gaming tech that hasn't moved on to tablets or the fact that smart TV's are starting to come out with voice recognition media app support for no subscription.

 

[cyberheater]

Well one thing that can be said for esram on top of giving the gpu extra bandwidth and some scratch pad, is that it is supposed to be pretty good for scaling down to smaller sizes. So microsoft might be able to turn the price point in their favor in 1 1/2 to 2 years.

I strongly suspect MS will be forced to do a price cut within the first year to remain competitive with PS4.

 

[cripterion]

That's a bummer.

Yep and all this backtracking is making my head hurt.

 

[gruenel]

What the hell guys, I haven't slept for over a day and you're somewhat confusing me. Wish my GTA V would hurry up and get here lol.

So 1080p is 125% more pixels than 720p...never thought mrklaw would get a maths question wrong lol.

No offense!

It was probably just a typo on mrklaw's side.

 

[Ishan]

also i agree with the pc vs console thing. I can probably go out and buy a 3000 dollar rig which demolishes anything on consoles.

pcs have advantages (scalability as per your own requirements and also pc keyboard more or less whoops any same skilled console controller)

but if people have already decided on consoles due to
1 ease of use
2 dont need to actaully research and buy the best balanced parts
3 friends are on console
4 Exclusives

then apart from leveraging exclusives between the two the second point is to compare the power between consoles for multiplats ... its a pretty simple argument which most pc gamers ignore ....

the reason i dont buy a high end pc is partly cost and usability and accesability (this is coming from a comp sci grad student)

but more importantly i like my console exclusives

and i choose my console on primarily exclusives but also if a certain console is way better value performance and cost wise i could be swayed .... its pretty simple i dont get how pc gamers dont get this point ...

 

[derwalde]

so it begins....

 

[-COOLIO-]

They are putting again graphical features over IQ

is that really so outrageous?

 

[IRQ]

Yeah, it was his baby. He was the exec that made the final call on everything.

So things would have been different if it was handeld by a more gaming guy.
Maybe thats why he quit,Let go,!?!

I love the X1 and gonna buy it day one with PS4, But everything seems not in order regarding the design, The policy and futuer vision. Thats pretty sad.

Instead of investing on TV input and whatnot, Why not a better GPU,RAM setting,CPU APU??

Its clearly they went with Media first, And gaming second. If MS first Party had better say inside the company they would have changed that vision. They would have maybe delayed the console the moment the PS4 was revealed.

just my two cents.

 

[IN&OUT]

basically, a very good and simple explanation that everyone will understand is this:

they "cut" part of the gpu so that they could fit in their budget their FOOLISH tv-kinect-ad-watch ideas.

Actually it was the eSRAM that took a big chunk of the APU. in my opinion DDR3+eSRAM was the worst decision MS came up during X1 design, they could have fitted a 4GB GDDR5 VRAM + 4GB DDR3 for OS...I think that would have been a better setup

 

[Guy.brush]

Obligatory resolution size comparison pic.

 

[a Master Ninja]

Goddamn it, after 8 years we still can't get 1080 native.

 

[Liabe Brave]

What a crap. CryEngine is scalable enough that 1080p is not a problem for Xbone.
I could understand that Crytek didnt want to compromise features on current gen consoles and released C3 in subHD, but in Ryse they had no excuse.
They are putting again graphical features over IQ and probably framerate ;\

Yeah, this is probably a better way to think about it than my previous "Crytek are having problems". They've actually lowered resolution intentionally. Either they think (probably correctly) that very few people will care, or else perhaps they've been pushed by Microsoft to crank up the showcase eyecandy at the expense of the more subtle stuff.

 

[Thrakier]

I strongly suspect MS will be forced to do a price cut within the first year to remain competitive with PS4.

I strongly suspect they need to release XBONE DD within the first year and stack it up to stay competitive with PS4.

 

[SapientWolf]

What is up with some PC gamers that they have to act like sanctimonious douche bags every chance they get? Oh really, your PC is faster? We don't really care. This is a console thread, discussing the consoles, and every time somebody has to come in and hurp durp, PC is better. Well no shit.

I've got a mid-range gaming rig, still getting a console because that's what my friends play one. My graphics card has more than 1.8 TFlop of power, but I don't bring it up in every god damn console thread there is.

Comparing the relative performance of gaming platforms seems to be the popular thing right now. Not surprising that everyone wants to join in. I don't think people buying the One care about how much faster the PS4 is reported to be, and yet that gets brought up quite a bit in unrelated threads. I wonder how those people feel. Probably the same way you do.

 

[Nightengale]

Microsoft's graphical showpiece, this supposed tentpole release, running at sub native rez? Someone fucked up.

This.

It being 900p is fine. Game still looks good, blahblahblah.

But since reveal till today, the game has always been positioned as XB1's graphical hallmark. Many news site and MS themselves said it was 1080p, MS themselves hyping Ryse up significantly.

This U-turn, and admittance that the game is actually not 1080p is simply a downer note.

 

[p3tran]

What is up with some PC gamers that they have to act like sanctimonious douche bags every chance they get? Oh really, your PC is faster? We don't really care. This is a console thread, discussing the consoles, and every time somebody has to come in and hurp durp, PC is better. Well no shit.

I've got a mid-range gaming rig, still getting a console because that's what my friends play one. My graphics card has more than 1.8 TFlop of power, but I don't bring it up in every god damn console thread there is.

what do you mean "pc gamer"?
my main goto play machines from 2000 up to 2010 where the stupid consoles.
I still have all of them, and will also get all of the next ones.
I game from the start of games. I just have kicked the habit of worshiping and raising to god status everything I buy.

back when 360 was released, it put all gaming pc's to shame. for 299.
xbox fat original did the same thing too.
this one, it only puts to shame its 10 year legacy.

 

[Duxxy3]

The system (and ryse) is getting released too soon.

 

[$h@d0w]

but if people have already decided on consoles due to
1 ease of use
2 dont need to actaully research and buy the best balanced parts
3 friends are on console
4 Exclusives

The biggest thing for me is the level playing field. If someone gets a great time trial record, or ranks high on a leaderboard, I know that they did it with the same tools (controller) that I have.

 

[Tiberius]

The problem with that example is that two different devs were involved. Not only that, but Bungie was never known as technical powerhouse whereas 343i was specifically formed as a no-holds-barred superstudio.

PGR3 to PGR4 is a better example. But if Crytek--you know, those guys almost everyone agrees are the single most technically skilled studio in existence?--are having problems, that bodes very ill for less gifted devs in the same timeframe.

You mean the same studio who made a game finally playable on a big pc 2 years after his release ?

 

[KKRT00]

is that really so outrageous?

Yeah, IQ matters much more. Most people wont notice many high precision effects, like for example higher quality DoF than competition. And why do You need high precision of effects when Your IQ will scale everything down anyway?
And for game that focuses on close combat and high fidelity assets IQ is priority, because with crappy IQ all fidelity gains are wasted.

 

[Ishan]

Comparing the relative performance of gaming platforms seems to be the popular thing right now. Not surprising that everyone wants to join in. I don't think people buying the One care about how much faster the PS4 is reported to be, and yet that gets brought up quite a bit in unrelated threads. I wonder how those people feel. Probably the same way you do.

yes but consoles and pcs are very different markets ... as i explained console exclusives are a major selling point what exclusives do pcs have i went into more detail into this in my earlier post

 

[GoofsterStud]

So much for press X for 1080p.

 

[Perkel]

And people didn't believe me and other people when we said that that 1,3tf xbone doesn't have power to play new games @ 1080p.

I still don't believe forza is true 1080p. Maybe dynamic resolution with 1080p as default.


As of 900p. 900p isn't naturally 1080p but it is great resolution much better than 720p

 

[cyberheater]

I strongly suspect they need to release XBONE DD within the first year and stack it up to stay competitive with PS4.

What a "XBONE DD"?

 

[Ricerocket]

What a "XBONE DD"?

 

[TheGreyHulk]

basically, a very good and simple explanation that everyone will understand is this:

they "cut" part of the gpu so that they could fit in their budget their FOOLISH tv-kinect-ad-watch ideas.

That's only partly true. Kinect took financial resources away, not silicon resources. The real reason they chose a smaller GPU was due to the fact that they need silicon space to accommodate the 32MB of ESRAM. About 1.6 billion transistors for this esram alone in a 5 billion transistor chip. It takes up a decent chunk of physical space on the APU, so they couldn't choose a larger GPU. Ps4 doesn't have this issue so they can dedicate more space for GPU cores.

 

[nib95]

Yeah, IQ matters much more. Most people wont notice many high precision effects, like for example higher quality DoF than competition. And why do You need high precision of effects when Your IQ will scale everything down anyway?
And for game that focuses on close combat and high fidelity assets IQ is priority, because with crappy IQ all fidelity gains are wasted.

This is Crytek you're talking about, they always sacrifice IQ for tick box graphical features on consoles.

 

[BadAss2961]

The problem with that example is that two different devs were involved. Not only that, but Bungie was never known as technical powerhouse whereas 343i was specifically formed as a no-holds-barred superstudio.

PGR3 to PGR4 is a better example. But if Crytek--you know, those guys almost everyone agrees are the single most technically skilled studio in existence?--are having problems, that bodes very ill for less gifted devs in the same timeframe.

They make good looking games, but they're not the best at optimizing. There's at least a few developers i'd put above them at getting the most out of a console -- in terms of both graphics and performance.

 

[Liabe Brave]

You mean the same studio who made a game finally playable on a big pc 2 years after his release ?

Yeah, I corrected myself. Like the overweening Crysis, they're not having problems due to a lack of skill. They're just overcranking the caustics, grass, and bokeh and letting the hardware struggle.

 

[IN&OUT]

And people didn't believe me and other people when we said that that 1,3tf xbone doesn't have power to play new games @ 1080p.

I still don't believe forza is true 1080p. Maybe dynamic resolution with 1080p as default.


As of 900p. 900p isn't naturally 1080p but it is great resolution much better than 720p

Well, PS3 and 360 were both able to play some games @1080p/60fps

your statement is quite inaccurate my friend, and that's coming from the biggest Sony fan you can have on GAF.

 

[Ishan]

Is there any more details you can give on Xbox One? Or the thoughts that MS folks had when they found out the specs of PS4. What was their reaction. Were they confident or did they go into panic mode?

i interned with them way back in 2009 to 2010 and also with their research group. So i dont really have insignt into their product development cycle apart from the general vibe i got while working at the research labs was that ms researchers come up with great ideas but from the innovation end to the actual product it just gets lost ... and the pr spin makes it worse ... thats just the vibe i got and like i said i was an intern years back ... im in grad school for a phd now and actually am currently research kinect applications (to non gaming areas) surveilance medical applications etc ...

essentially tis good tech just not leveraged well ... and imo if youre going to put something that expensive and nice into your box thats what you be focussed on leveraging not your underpowered gpu which you had to make a compromise on because you decied the kinect was the way to go ... thats just my opinion

 

[GoofsterStud]

900p isn't naturally 1080p but it is great resolution

Honestly anyone under a 40 inch display probably won't notice the difference, which I assume is a significant portion... Those of us with 60+ inches will be able to tell instantly, hopefully the upscaler is as good as the PR rep leads us to believe.

 

[wapplew]

So, what this mean for Digital Foundry on Ryse 1080p article?

 

[strata8]

back when 360 was released, it put all gaming pc's to shame. for 299.
xbox fat original did the same thing too.
this one, it only puts to shame its 10 year legacy.

10 year legacy right there.

 

[not_so_special]

Doesn't matter, game still looks incredible. As I said in the other thread, now I'm not as concerned that everything I was seeing was running on a high end pc, and thus would possibly not be representative of the actual game.



Yea, the real hardcore console warriors will come out in force.

dont get me wrong..but you arent concerned to anything xbox related

 

[cyberheater]

And people didn't believe me and other people when we said that that 1,3tf xbone doesn't have power to play new games @ 1080p.

That's because you're talking rubbish.

1.3Tf is similar power to a GeForce GTX 560 according to Wikipedia. That's good enough for 1080p graphics and that's not in a closed box environment surround by tons of custom chips nor does it have eSRAM.

 

[tzare]

Well, i can't say i am surprised, in fact i expected a lot of first wave of games to be sub 1080p, including first party.
But considering all this mess around Xbone's performance vs ps4 and all the PR stuff, this won't help MS at all. And considering Ryse was probably the 'best' looking launch game for XB...

 

[Liabe Brave]

I still don't believe forza is true 1080p. Maybe dynamic resolution with 1080p as default.

Even accounting for double the framerate, Forza 5 is doing lots less graphically than Ryse. I mean, oodles.

 

[Nightengale]

I strongly suspect MS will be forced to do a price cut within the first year to remain competitive with PS4.

I wonder, though...

This is tales from my ass(umptions), but if we look at all of MS's original DRM plans, it seemed to me that MS's original strategy with XB1 was maximisation of profit margins. IMO, they very consciously made a console that would had been a lot more restrictive in terms of global reach ( 360 sold well in non-internet connecting developing markets due to piracy ), but would have been a lot more within their control of long-term monetisation. Be it with the TV-intregration/Gold paywall/Kinect nuAd/used-games restriction/etc. All the hooks to maximise profit per user were there within XB1.

A lot of those things are gone now. They're essentially back to X360 levels of profit margins, though we can still expect some Kinect nuAds and TV-stuff.

Cutting the price of the console is simply going to cut very very deep into margins, and down into the red ink.

I won't pretend to be Balmer/Mattrick, but the huge gap of the original $299 price in the Fortaleza slides with the actual price of $499, highly implies to me that Xbox division is under pressure to not execute a loss-leader strategy.

 

[mrklaw]

on this i disagree. kinect is a value. maybe not to hardcore gamers but it can lead to novel gameplay experiences. expecially if indies are allowed to leverage it .... its just surprising ms doesnt push that aspect rather than get into a already lost gpu/hardware battle

and without hardcore gamers at the start of the gen, they don't get the word of mouth and momentum to even start getting that mainstream interested. It is a very high risk strategy and I think they were relying on Sony not being as strong as they are.

 

[TrueGrime]

Is 900p upscaled to 1080p really going to make any difference sitting several feet on my 1080p 60 inch TV? Am I going to miss those extra crispy pixels? Is every game on the next generation consoles going to run at native 1080p? Are they going to run at 60 FPS?

Is it beyond logical to give developers the benefit of the doubt that it'll take time developing on new tech to get it where it needs to be? That in order to set some benchmarks that developers wish to reach, a few things might need to be sacrificed?

 

[KKRT00]

This is Crytek you're talking about, they always sacrifice IQ for tick box graphical features on consoles.

At least with Crysis 2 and Crysis 3 they had excuse. There is no excuse here, just wanting to go all out with CE features.

Knowing Crytek they've even put SMAA 4x instead SMAA T2x ... They probably think that SMAA 4x in 900p is better than 1080p SMAA T2x - wrong!

I could understand that in multiplatform development, but in exclusives You can budget games as You want.

 

[nib95]

That's because you're talking rubbish.

1.3Tf is similar power to a GeForce GTX 560 according to Wikipedia. That's good enough for 1080p graphics and that's not in a closed box environment surround by tons of custom chips nor does it have eSRAM.

But it does have GDDR5 ram at 128 GB/s bandwidth, which is a whole lot more than the Xbox One's DDR3 at 68 GB/s. But honestly, you are right. These are just launch release pangs. This always happens. Don't know how Sony have avoided it, but all these games will be topped very quickly later in the launch window cycle or thereafter.