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Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017

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I don't know if this wired article has been posted in this thread but I'll include the link below. There's been a lot of speculation on here about the Scorpio's gpu with most pointing to Vega. I'm firmly of the belief that it's is almost certainly a modified polaris gpu. The new rx480 at 1266mhz is rated at 5.8 teraflops of gpu power. If Microsoft isn't actually rounding up here, then certainly it must be a modified 480 with a few more cu's and sp's at a lower clock speed? Looking at the render again, the cooler in the box resembles that of a blower style gpu?

Anyway, in the article linked below, Spencer informs wired that after talking to their partners, they determined that they needed a gpu around the gtx 980 level to deliver a premium 4k gaming experience. Again, all we've heard about the the rx480 suggests that the 480 delivers 980 level performance. It's possible that the neo and Scorpio are both using Polaris but maybe at different clock speeds or slightly different chips? If that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft are still using the jaguar cpu.


Wired Article
 
TheSpecialOne said:
I don't know if this wired article has been posted in this thread but I'll include the link below. There's been a lot of speculation on here about the Scorpio's gpu with most pointing to Vega. I'm firmly of the belief that it's is almost certainly a modified polaris gpu. The new rx480 at 1266mhz is rated at 5.8 teraflops of gpu power. If Microsoft isn't actually rounding up here, then certainly it must be a modified 480 with a few more cu's and sp's at a lower clock speed? Looking at the render again, the cooler in the box resembles that of a blower style gpu?

Anyway, in the article linked below, Spencer informs wired that after talking to their partners, they determined that they needed a gpu around the gtx 980 level to deliver a premium 4k gaming experience. Again, all we've heard about the the rx480 suggests that the 480 delivers 980 level performance. It's possible that the neo and Scorpio are both using Polaris but maybe at different clock speeds or slightly different chips? If that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft are still using the jaguar cpu.


Wired Article
Click to expand...


That's not exactly what he said though.

We asked the partners, 'in order to build a true high-fidelity 4K game, what capabilities do you need?' That's what we designed Scorpio around. It's kind of like a 980 card on PC. I get the capability that I need as developer to deliver a high-fidelity 4K game.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure what exactly he was implying with the 980 reference, but we know that the Scorpio's memory bandwidth is far greater than both the RX480 and a 980. Plus didn't DF already stated that it's based on PC tech that has yet to be announced?
 
I think it will be Zen / Polaris.

Come holiday 2017, the Jaguar CPU seems out of the question. Especially for a powerful machine like this and one that needs to run VR at 90fps plus.

At the same time, Vega GPU seems unlikely as by default it uses HBM2.

But who knows, these are semi custom SOC's and all kinds of changes can be made.
 
TheSpecialOne said:
I don't know if this wired article has been posted in this thread but I'll include the link below. There's been a lot of speculation on here about the Scorpio's gpu with most pointing to Vega. I'm firmly of the belief that it's is almost certainly a modified polaris gpu. The new rx480 at 1266mhz is rated at 5.8 teraflops of gpu power. If Microsoft isn't actually rounding up here, then certainly it must be a modified 480 with a few more cu's and sp's at a lower clock speed? Looking at the render again, the cooler in the box resembles that of a blower style gpu?
Click to expand...

Microsoft and Sony consoles have always released with state of the art GPU for their year. Scorpio would be at least a Vega, if not Navi, derivative. If Vega and Navi are Polaris only, then I still doubt the configuration would same as RX480.

The bus is either 192 or 384 bit, where as RX480 has a 256 bit bus.
 
PanicFreak said:
The only reason I don't think it will go for $499 is because during the IGN roundtable with all of the heads of Xbox, Phil Spencer told a story about how bad it was being on the more expensive side when releasing a console.

I think they came in with a mandate to provide good VR and 4K support but I think there was probably another mandate to design the box around a $399 price point. They'll have the most powerful box but they need a compelling price point to match.
Click to expand...


Do you have a link to this roundtable? Working on an article regarding Xbox and Microsoft at E3 2016 and this would be great to watch as reference.
 
anothertech said:
Really? That's extremely exciting if true!

Does someone know the source for this?
Click to expand...


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-xbox-one-project-scorpio-spec-analysis


However, based on the differential in spec between Neo and Scorpio, it's unlikely that the new Microsoft console uses Polaris at all. A 40 CU part would need a mighty overclock to hit 6TF, and based on the rendered imagery we've seen, the heating assembly planned for Scorpio looks a little lacklustre. With that in mind, our money is on a downclocked version of AMD's upcoming Vega technology.
Click to expand...


Nothing is set in stone but I think it's safe to assume it's Vega. I mean, this thing is coming out late 2017 after all.
 
Proelite said:
Microsoft and Sony consoles have always released with state of the art GPU for their year. Scorpio would be at least a Vega, if not Navi, derivative. If Vega and Navi are Polaris only, then I still doubt the configuration would same as RX480.

The bus is either 192 or 384 bit, where as RX480 has a 256 bit bus.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that it would be the exact same, I just suggested that it will be a Polaris chip. It'll probably be customized with a 384 bit bus. Again, the reason I don't think it's Vega is because Vega is supposedly using hbm2 only. It doesn't make sense for them to take that chip, switch the memory controller and use g5 memory. It certainly won't be 12gb of hbm2 in the Scorpio. Anyway, it's just speculation on my part. Information will probably start leaking out early next year.


MaulerX said:
That's not exactly what he said though.




I'm not sure what exactly he was implying with the 980 reference, but we know that the Scorpio's memory bandwidth is far greater than both the RX480 and a 980. Plus didn't DF already stated that it's based on PC tech that has yet to be announced?
Click to expand...
Yea, memory bandwidth is required for 4k. The reason I suggested this is because I think it would make more sense to use full Polaris which is rumored to have 40 cu's than it would be to significantly down clock Vega.
 
MaulerX said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-xbox-one-project-scorpio-spec-analysis





Nothing is set in stone but I think it's safe to assume it's Vega. I mean, this thing is coming out late 2017 after all.
Click to expand...
This statement by digital foundry is wrong. 2304sp * 2 * 1.266ghz = 5.8tf. Leaked reports regarding the 480 from China have already confirmed that the stock cards hit the boost clocks with ease. The chip isn't too hot and it draws little power. A mighty overclock is not needed to hit 6tf and this is with the 36 cu 480. Again, that article is factually incorrect. I just don't see it being Vega because I'm assuming they'll want the two to be < 150-200 watts. The rx480 is rated at 150 watts but rumors suggest that it draws around 110 watts. All things considered, I don't think it can be Vega especially when they are increasing the amount of memory and using g5 memory instead of hbm2.
 
AzaK said:
Can the nerds here, tell me how twice the memory bandwidth, but 5x the teraflops can balance out?
Click to expand...

I don't see the point in tagging anybody as a nerd, anyway everything doesn't have to scale in a linear manner. Bandwidth is on of such things. The GTX1080 has about as much bandwidth as the Scorpio, and yet has more tflops the Scorpio.
 
TheSpecialOne said:
There's been a lot of speculation on here about the Scorpio's gpu with most pointing to Vega. I'm firmly of the belief that it's is almost certainly a modified polaris gpu. The new rx480 at 1266mhz is rated at 5.8 teraflops of gpu power. If Microsoft isn't actually rounding up here, then certainly it must be a modified 480 with a few more cu's and sp's at a lower clock speed?
Click to expand...

I don't think a custom chip GPU without any redundant units is feasible. So there will be disabled CU compared the top PC GPU.
PC GPU get binned, there's always a lower version that gets the GPUs with the defective CU disabled. Consoles don't do this, yet, so there would be a lot of chips to throw away.
 
TheSpecialOne said:
This statement by digital foundry is wrong. 2304sp * 2 * 1.266ghz = 5.8tf. Leaked reports regarding the 480 from China have already confirmed that the stock cards hit the boost clocks with ease. The chip isn't too hot and it draws little power. A mighty overclock is not needed to hit 6tf and this is with the 36 cu 480. Again, that article is factually incorrect. I just don't see it being Vega because I'm assuming they'll want the two to be < 150-200 watts. The rx480 is rated at 150 watts but rumors suggest that it draws around 110 watts. All things considered, I don't think it can be Vega especially when they are increasing the amount of memory and using g5 memory instead of hbm2.
Click to expand...

They had custom designs for Polaris with DDR3 and with GDDR5, I am sure they can make custom Vega SoCs with DDR3, GDDR5 or HBM2.
 
Bitch Pudding said:
Genuinely looking forward to how Scorpio's approach will impact the next generation / iteration of consoles.
Click to expand...

Do you own AMD stocks by any chance?
Seriously, that thing may become the doomed platform hardcore gamers enjoy.
I'm really not sure how much power Xbox has still in them in 18 month. Scorpio might never take off because it's too late, too expensive and leaked to death too early.
 
00ich said:
Do you own AMD stocks by any chance?
Seriously, that thing may become the doomed platform hardcore gamers enjoy.
I'm really not sure how much power Xbox has still in them in 18 month. Scorpio might never take off because it's too late, too expensive and leaked to death too early.
Click to expand...

No, but only because I have a close look at a company's cash flows before I spent a single dime...

Having said that, even if it bombs it might still impact MS and Sony's design (or even the whole approach) of their respective next consoles. From a business / marketing perspective, I find this quite entertaining. Personally, I am not convinced to get invested in one of them, yet.
 
AzaK said:
Can the nerds here, tell me how twice the memory bandwidth, but 5x the teraflops can balance out?
Click to expand...

nerd, come on bud.....

I remember reading that the new AMD cores use compression technology like Nvidia now, they can send more information with less bandwidth. So to me the bandwidth + more data is a good balance,

So the only other factor for balance is the CPU, and zen is the obvious choice and Jaguar is weak. How hot zen would get and how powerful it cna be in a low power APU is an unknown.

Same 'concerns' I have for Neo, Jaguar is the lead weight.

And to all the posters about AMD / Stocks or whatever,c ant we be excited for 3 new hardware designs and the design choices they make. Its damn fun.

And to me its clear Scorpio is designed with VR in mind, heck they even had Carmack on stage and mentioned Fallout 4 VR. MS just not ready to spill the beans on that yet is my guess.

All the 4K TV is tuff is just - please buy Xb1 s now. The message will change next year lol.
 
Bitch Pudding said:
Genuinely looking forward to how Scorpio's approach will impact the next generation / iteration of consoles.
Click to expand...

And only 16 months to wait...

jzc9UkS.gif
 
Gamezone said:
I don't get it. Phil told us that the Scorpio would be a waste without a 4K TV, then tells everyone that developers can use the hardware however they want?
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he was aiming to say.

His point was that if you don't own a 4K tv, you won't be able to percieve many of the benefits of owning a Scorpio, so getting a Xbox One S might be better for your money.
 
Trup1aya said:
I don't think that's what he was aiming to say.

His point was that if you don't own a 4K tv, you won't be able to percieve many of the benefits of owning a Scorpio, so getting a Xbox One S might be better for your money.
Click to expand...

Ergo - please buy the xbox one s whilst we are working on this one.

Anyone that thought for a second that the Scorpio would only cater to the minuscule 4K TV market, is on something
 
VincentMatts said:
Replace ps3 with 360.
Click to expand...



Pretty much this. Between OG Xbox and 360, that's 14 years of better performing multiplats.




TheSpecialOne said:
This statement by digital foundry is wrong. 2304sp * 2 * 1.266ghz = 5.8tf. Leaked reports regarding the 480 from China have already confirmed that the stock cards hit the boost clocks with ease. The chip isn't too hot and it draws little power. A mighty overclock is not needed to hit 6tf and this is with the 36 cu 480. Again, that article is factually incorrect. I just don't see it being Vega because I'm assuming they'll want the two to be < 150-200 watts. The rx480 is rated at 150 watts but rumors suggest that it draws around 110 watts. All things considered, I don't think it can be Vega especially when they are increasing the amount of memory and using g5 memory instead of hbm2.
Click to expand...




I don't know. If it was as easy as you make it seem then why isn't the Neo 6TF this holiday? If Scorpio was using Polaris, and is as easy as you make it seem, then why no Scorpio this holiday? And honestly, 12GB of Ram with 320GB/s bandwidth is what's really going to set the Scorpio apart probably more than the teraflops.
 
Dee Dah Dave said:
Vega this and Zen that is largely irrelevant. It's an APU of a particular size, what goes into it doesn't really matter. It's the silicon space you are mostly paying for. Sure there might be some premium on the newer architecture, but not much.

On 14nm, the size of a 6TF GPU + Zen CPU would be very similar to a 28nm launch Xbox One APU. Maybe 10 to 25 dollar difference.

Then going by the images and given bandwidth, the Scorpio will have 12GB of standard GDDR5 on a 384bit BUS. That extra / different RAM is maybe another ~30 bucks or so.

So the build cost of this thing will easily come in within the $499 or less range. No way will it be more than that for the base model. Extra SKU's with bigger HDD's etc don't count.

I will remove my left gonad if it's more than $499.
Click to expand...

A 14nm APU roughly the size of the XB1 28nm APU could be a lot more expensive - that is about the size of the GTX1080. By launch yields should be up and prices should be down, but I think it'll still be a premium cost. i could easily see it being $499 at launch. Bear in mind ms don't need it to be a volume seller immediately - it can sell to early adopters at $499 before reducing the price into 2018 for a more mainstream market
 
Are there any fundamental differences between Polaris and vega, other than vega having more CUs and the option of HBM for some variants?
 
mrklaw said:
Are there any fundamental differences between Polaris and vega, other than vega having more CUs and the option of HBM for some variants?
Click to expand...
I hardly know anything about this, but I'm presuming computing efficiency? Similar to Intel's I series?
 
Zedox said:
To answer your last question, no. What I do think is that 1 year is way too short to think support is going to drop. I'll give it 3-4 years from Scorpio launch before we start hearing rumblings of the next thing. 2019/2020 would be a good year to drop Xbox One support and get the next big thing in console gaming. Like I said, they aren't going to drop 20-30mil users for this new thing after 1 year.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this would be problematic for MS to abandon the existing base. I am guess that Phil has a timeline with the last day and date of X1 support.... And I doubt it is 2017.
 
MilkyJoe said:
Ergo - please buy the xbox one s whilst we are working on this one.

Anyone that thought for a second that the Scorpio would only cater to the minuscule 4K TV market, is on something
Click to expand...

Maybe you can take it that way. But it's clear that these two consoles would be interesting to completely different customers.

Of all the people who waited 3 years to get an xb1 at $299, how many do you think will instead pay premium price to buy a Scorpio at launch.

We're talking price concious people who probably have a 1080p tv at best VS people who are early adopters of expensive new tech.

There's very little overlap.
 
I don't see the Scorpio launching with anything less than a Zen variant in its apu. AMD will be launching a Zen-based apu early next year. Also, consider the fact that the Scorpio is geared toward high fidelity vr, MS has gone on record that they are not making there own VR headset, so its safe to assume the will partner with Occulus (most likely) or allow other VRHMDs like Vive. Either way, both have an i5 as their recommended cpu for vr given the high framerate requirement. The gpu exceeds the recommended spec for VR in the PC space, and all signs point to the Scorpio having a 12gb RAM.

I don't see how they will suddenly cripple the system with a Jaguar cpu.
 
Trup1aya said:
Maybe you can take it that way. But it's clear that these two consoles would be interesting to completely different customers.

Of all the people who waited 3 years to get an xb1 at $299, how many do you think will instead pay premium price to buy a Scorpio at launch.

We're talking price concious people who probably have a 1080p tv at best VS people who are early adopters of expensive new tech.

There's very little overlap.
Click to expand...

Well that all really depends on the price for starters, but I will go out on a limb and say that like every other piece of new tech that comes along, lots of people will buy it. Sure there is a price concious market and the new back/forward compatibility model is very good for those, but there is also a very big ... price unconscious(?) market out there, many of which grew up with 4 years in a generation consoles, that are happy to upgrade. And that will be a much bigger number of people than the 4K tv population that happen to want a new xbox.

Also, the market is not static, new customers arrive every day. literally every day and from both sides of the "fiscal net" as it were.
 
Just realized how long of a wait this will be. I know it's a long shot, but I hope they launch September next year. At least I'll have the neo and nx to keep me busy in the meantime.
 
TBH thinking of Scorpio as a 4K console kind of kills my hype for it, because it's only 6TF..that's just not enough power to have high solid frame rates at that resolution. I really really hope MS doesnt secretly discourage devs from choosing high fidelity visuals at 1080p/60fps over just achieving 4K. God I'd love a jaw dropping 'KI4' at 1080/60.
 
tapedeck said:
TBH thinking of Scorpio as a 4K console kind of kills my hype for it, because it's only 6TF..that's just not enough power to have high solid frame rates at that resolution. I really really hope MS doesnt secretly discourage devs from choosing high fidelity visuals at 1080p/60fps over just achieving 4K. God I'd love a jaw dropping 'KI4' at 1080/60.
Click to expand...

every time this comes around, and every time the devs make the same choices. Your racing games, fighting games and FPS games will likely be 60fps, and most other types of games will be 30. Just like before.

If you absolutely must have 60, you have to go PC where you can choose where to prioritise the power you have available.
 
tapedeck said:
TBH thinking of Scorpio as a 4K console kind of kills my hype for it, because it's only 6TF..that's just not enough power to have high solid frame rates at that resolution. I really really hope MS doesnt secretly discourage devs from choosing high fidelity visuals at 1080p/60fps over just achieving 4K. God I'd love a jaw dropping 'KI4' at 1080/60.
Click to expand...

Couldn't the current KI run at 4K/60fps on Scorpio hardware, though?
 
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