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Xbox World Rumor: Xbox 720 Devkit Specs Detailed, Includes 16-Core Processor
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
phosphor112
Banned
I'm curious about the quote about the PS4 supposedly being more powerful.
How??
How??
Barkley's Justice
Member
microsoft disinformation
VibratingDonkey
Member
The CPU will be made out of unobtainium.
Probably because this is a PowerPC part. Not that I'm advocating that the console would see a high price tag, but taking this rumor at face value means that you're getting a server class CPU in a console and the subsidizing of said part would only go so far before it become unfeasible for any console budget.
Magnets.
Soul magnets.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
The important point to make is that it's not about the PS4 supposedly being more powerful, it's about the dev sources back at GDC expecting the PS4 to be more powerful than the next Xbox. Those sources might or might not have known target specs of either machine.
Yep!
but what make you think it's going to be $1000? but if it was $1000 & I felt it was worth the money I would buy it.
gaming_noob
Member
Been meaning to ask, who's that in your avatar?
in the kids room
That article is from Jan 2012.
Look at this press release from that same week.
IBM and GLOBALFOUNDRIES Begin First Production At New York's Latest Semiconductor Fab
The new products recently began initial production at IBM's 300mm fab in East Fishkill and GLOBALFOUNDRIES' Fab 8 in Saratoga County, and are planned to ramp to volume production in the second half of 2012. The chips are the first silicon produced at GLOBALFOUNDRIES' newest and most advanced manufacturing facility.
....
The technology vastly improves microprocessor performance in multi-core designs and speeds the movement of graphics in gaming, networking, and other image intensive, multi-media applications.
http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2012/20120109.aspx
I don't know anything since none of these specs are official.
That was an obvious hyperbole, but if it really had such a CPU backed up by an appropriate GPU and amount of RAM, it would be more than FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS ($$$).
All my guesses backed by "some" technological and programming knowledge. XD
$1000? I really hope you mean with like, 10 games, 4 controllers, accessories etc... Cause $1000's a little bit too much for a game system.
Not with five jobs!
mhayze
Member
I'm not saying the original story is true, it smells of BS, but as far as a high core count CPU in a cheap console, consider:
The Xbox 360 launched with a 160million transistor CPU (Xenon) made with a 90nm process, with a size of 176mm^2, and had 3 PowerPC cores, or ~53 million transitors each [1].
In 2012, a mid range CPU from intel is the quad core ivy bridge, with a very similar die size at 160mm^2, and which has 4 Ivy Bridge cores (8 threads) at 1.4 billion transistors or ~350million transistors each [1] - i.e. each core is much larger than the entire Xenon CPU in transistor count. But the x86 processor is also much more general purpose computation focused, and has a lot of silicon dedicated to improve IPC and accelerate the x86 instruction set - things that wouldn't be needed in a console.
A theoretical PowerPC based 16 core CPU, that had 50% more transistors per core compared to the Xenon, would still use 1.2 billion transistors - smaller than an Ivy Bridge i5 on a similar process size, with an estimated die size of 137mm^2 on a comparable process.
Point is, Microsoft could easily build a 16 core CPU for launch in 2013-2014, that was smaller, cheaper and faster (per core) than the original Xenon was at launch - do the math.
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[1] In reality, total die size includes cache, memory controllers, etc., but you can consider this a transistor cost that is divided per physical core.
The Xbox 360 launched with a 160million transistor CPU (Xenon) made with a 90nm process, with a size of 176mm^2, and had 3 PowerPC cores, or ~53 million transitors each [1].
In 2012, a mid range CPU from intel is the quad core ivy bridge, with a very similar die size at 160mm^2, and which has 4 Ivy Bridge cores (8 threads) at 1.4 billion transistors or ~350million transistors each [1] - i.e. each core is much larger than the entire Xenon CPU in transistor count. But the x86 processor is also much more general purpose computation focused, and has a lot of silicon dedicated to improve IPC and accelerate the x86 instruction set - things that wouldn't be needed in a console.
A theoretical PowerPC based 16 core CPU, that had 50% more transistors per core compared to the Xenon, would still use 1.2 billion transistors - smaller than an Ivy Bridge i5 on a similar process size, with an estimated die size of 137mm^2 on a comparable process.
Point is, Microsoft could easily build a 16 core CPU for launch in 2013-2014, that was smaller, cheaper and faster (per core) than the original Xenon was at launch - do the math.
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[1] In reality, total die size includes cache, memory controllers, etc., but you can consider this a transistor cost that is divided per physical core.
You should learn more about mass production and how that affect the final cost of the consumer product.
It seems they are
This is so far off the mark... an in-order CPU starved for cache and bandwidth is worse than the PPE? lol
I don't think it is.
They wanted to have a 4ghz OoO Power4-based multicore. (i.e. 2-4 core). They got a 3-core in-order PPE instead.
____
GAF don't do this to yourself...
Power7 doesn't come at 32nm, guys. PPC476FP does, and that's the only way you're getting 16 cores. A CPU of that nature (i.e. a bunch of small not-so-beefy CPUs running in parralell) is the only kind that makes sense in this rumour.
To put it in lamens terms: what would you rather have in your PC? A bunch of Atoms or Bobcats? Or i7s? Because I can tell you which one has a much higher per-thread performance and it isn't the small energy-effecient core. And also which one our developers would prefer every single time.
Edit: And just to add more fuel to the fire,
IBM in 2011 stated that it had the ability to add VMX/Altivec units (should sound familiar to many of you) to the PPC476's... https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techli...PPC470S&476FP_Technical_Overview_20110215.pps
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I see this information mentioned quite often and I don't know where it comes from, but according to Nick Baker, at first they wanted to go with a single x86 main core and 8-16 smaller cores specialized for floating point operations (not unlike the Cell, it seems), then they planned on going with 4-8 cores without the x86 element before finally settling for just 3 PowerPC cores.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
Exactly, something like this was what I remembered.
I've got one of the developer documentations at work (from November 2004) and I'll dig it up for you on Monday (not there today). The specs were near-final at that point, and it still stated a 4ghz Power4-like chip.
Anyway, I've done some more digging. The guy (Charles Johnson) who designed Waternoose (i.e. the PPE in the current consoles) did this in 2010:
http://eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222700420&pgno=2
And reactions from the press:
(Works like a standard network processor, twice the size and cost)
Is this the A2 that IBM was talking about in 2010?
Regardless someone, somewhere is getting their wires crossed here, rumour wise.
What are video game developers going to do with a 16 core processor that warrants spending this much on manufacturing when it could be spent on GPU and RAM? Fuck, many PC games still use 1 core in the CPU (Civilization 5).
It's possible. I just don't think it's plausible or a good idea (like Cell wasn't ultimately).
It's possible. I just don't think it's plausible or a good idea (like Cell wasn't ultimately).
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
We already have. The battle for rumoured specs is raging for more than a week now. So far very little seems to make sense and is largely disappointing.
brain_stew
Member
They're not going to include all 32MB of eDRAM if power7 is the way they go. They might not include it all but even 8MB would be a massive amount and greatly cut down on the transistor count.
I know how mass production affects costs, that's why I said $1000 was an exaggeration.
I just want some concrete, believable specs, not rumors with "made for hits" written all over them.
toddhunter
Member
Emulating PS3 games
Its better to downsize it and focus on better GPU. Power7 is already sufficiently powerful.
Nizz
Member
Melissa Clarke
I meant more about devs having their hands on PS4 dev kits. Well if there are rumored specs floating around I guess they'd have em already.
Robot Pants
Member
Who cares.
Give me the games.
Give me the games.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Yeah, there's a thread about some specs leaked by devs to IGN.
gaming_noob
Member
Melissa Clarke
Thank you.
Nizz
Member
I kind of like these times because when gens are overlapping, you sometimes see prettier versions of games coming out on current gen systems.
I imagine something like a COD title running at a pure 720p (or maybe even 1080p) and never, ever dropping below 60fps. That will already look like a nice little jump with the resolution alone.
how do you know how much they spent on this?
brain_stew
Member
It will be die shrunk as well, but there's no point wasting transistors on a cache structure designed for a server on a console CPU.
I am making an assumption that more cores takes up more space, generates more heat, uses more power. It may be wrong, but even then do game software developers even have something for these 16 cores to do that a GPU can't already do vastly better? I recall Naughty Dog did some backgrounds and effects with Cell, but I imagine it would have looked better with a faster GPU doing those floating point calculations rather than sinking cash into Cell.
Wow, this seems rather interesting. The outcome is becoming more and more foggy. XD
I'm still for a POWER7 CPU. Come on Sony!
Console gaming is rapidly changing from what it once was. Gamers want not only better graphics but a better social experience as well. That could be anything from recording/streaming your gaming sessions to better motion control device algorithms; all of which will take more processing power.
You know Americans pay next to nothing for videogames compared to other countries yeah?
I wish I only had to pay $600 for the PS3 at launch. Cost me a cool $1000. Hell, the Saturn cost my mother $899 back in 95.
Civ dev should spend the other 15 cores on AI since it is atrocious
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Heavy Rain HD: Now With Gameplay!
Ye I guess Crysis with photo realistic mod and 60 fps is too much