-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Xenia (Xbox 360 emulator) now runs Red Dead Redemtion at almost 30 FPS.
- Thread starter Gamezone
- Start date
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Naw. I'll just play the 4K version on X1X
Shifty
Member
Impressive, looking forward to Xenia getting to Dolphin levels of speed and compatibility. That's a big library to be playing with the various enhancements that emulation can bring.
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
why not just play the enhanced version on xb1?
pr0cs
Member
some people don't have a XB1.
It's impressive regardless if there is a better way to play RDR.
Secretly this makes me hope that Microsoft will announce at E3 software that you can run on Win10 that does the same emulation that XB1 gets for 360 BC titles. That to me would prove a lot of goodwill towards their stance that they want to improve PC gamer relationship.
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
Please do not believe the worst of people. Let's avoid accusations and trying to point out people for being 'naughty'. That 'gotcha' mentality is not something we care for.
so because you don't have it. you pirate it?
I mean its not an old game and there is a better version of it that you can buy. I do not agree with these kind of things really. if the game is available and cheap on a current system. your pirating to pirate. you aren't preserving games
MrTroubleMaker
Member
Nice! Making good progress 
pr0cs
Member
A bit of a stretch no?
I have a oneX but didn't for the majority of this gen. I DID however have a 360 last gen and have dozens of titles for it still. I would love to play them in full form on my pc, even though they work reasonably well on the X I'm confident that they'd be even better on my pc.
Not everyone wanting emulation is a pirate, pretty insulting to automatically assume this without even thinking about what is being said
baphomet
Member
Where the fuck are you getting pirating from?
Shifty
Member
The drivebys, they don't stop!
There is more to discuss around the subject of emulation than it being available elsewhere and the usual accusations of piracy that seem to crop up in every thread on the topic.
The notion that this is a technical achievement in reverse-engineering, for one, or perhaps the fact that RDR1 is now one step closer to being preserved in a medium that will long outlast both the Xbox 360 and Xbox One ecosystems.
I second this post with a vengeance.
Last edited:
hououinkyouma00
Member
How cool do you feel now? I'll never understand posts like this.
Emulation is not piracy. He may very well own those games.
There are plenty of people that use emulation as an excuse to not buy a product but don't generalize an entire group.
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
oh cmon lets not act like this. lets not get to semantics okay?. because we all know nobody is going to buy games and rip them to emulate them.
Gamezone
Gold Member
That wasn't the point of the discussion at all.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Microsoft should make Dreamcast and Saturn backwards compatible. They have proved that they can make better emulators.
What are you talking about? The Xbox backwards compatibility stuff isn't even emulation. They just found a way to recompile games in an automated way to get them to run on the machine. That's why you have to download them even if you have the disc.
Microsoft's work is basically gutter trash compared to what open source emulators have done during the past 20 years.
Koala Driving a Ferrari
Member
This is great news. I'm all for software preservation (but, clearly, if you're a true gamer and you want to play RDR -and you should- you would have bought an Xbox One X already).
Can you imagine how great it'd be to have official (disc based + digital purchase) SEGA Saturn & DC emulation on the XB1?
It's entirely doable and it doesn't stray far from Xbox heritage considering that the OG Xbox hardware has a relationship with SEGA (the OG Xbox hardware is almost identical to the successor to SEGA's Dreamcast/NAOMI arcade platform, Chihiro):
Can you imagine how great it'd be to have official (disc based + digital purchase) SEGA Saturn & DC emulation on the XB1?
It's entirely doable and it doesn't stray far from Xbox heritage considering that the OG Xbox hardware has a relationship with SEGA (the OG Xbox hardware is almost identical to the successor to SEGA's Dreamcast/NAOMI arcade platform, Chihiro):
Last edited:
Gamezone
Gold Member
True. I rarely play games on emulators, still I'm very interested in how they're maturing.
petran79
Banned
Only game I was interested was Deathsmiles 2 but Xenia gives me a black screen. Yet audio and controls work perfectly.
Emulators should start with small things first and then move on to greater things. That is how PCSX2 developed. Initially it was labelled as an emulator for anime fans because all it could emulate was simpler japanese games.
But now emulators to gain popularity and funds, focus mostly on the AAA games first. Same with yuzu. It can run Mario Odyssey, yet crashes at Code if Princess EX. Same with Rpcs3 and Atlus, even resulting in a failed C&D, though at least that emulator made great progress.
One reason I stopped bothering with emulation of previous gen systems.
Emulators should start with small things first and then move on to greater things. That is how PCSX2 developed. Initially it was labelled as an emulator for anime fans because all it could emulate was simpler japanese games.
But now emulators to gain popularity and funds, focus mostly on the AAA games first. Same with yuzu. It can run Mario Odyssey, yet crashes at Code if Princess EX. Same with Rpcs3 and Atlus, even resulting in a failed C&D, though at least that emulator made great progress.
One reason I stopped bothering with emulation of previous gen systems.
Winter's End
Member
Why wait for the 360 version? Both NieR Replicant (which has a english fan patch out) and Gestalt work flawless in RPCS3 i completed Replicant a while ago on a low spec notebook so it doesn't even need a very powerful PC.
Last edited:
Rodolink
Member
Oh thats great! Does the story differ too much with the different protagonists? I liked the tramp guy with a daughter scenario at the start of the 360 version
Winter's End
Member
Nah story is pretty much the same you just play the brother instead of the father.
KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
Uh? Talk about yourself not for other people please. I do have an Xbox 360 with a LOT of games and if I can emulate them on my PC, I will. Also, games for the 360 are really cheap so buying them is not a big deal. And guess what? It will have no impact on your life!
Why are there always people to criticize the choices of others.
Otherwise I tested RDR (1, 2) and I have to say my perf are not like on the video (GTX 980, I7 6700K and 32GB), I'm getting 15/20FPS buuuuut it's on the good way.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
This must be your dumbest post yet and the fact that you are just talking about how they just found a way speaks of how clueless you are.
MS effectively wrote a virtual GPU and hypervisor that implements X360 hardware calls. Games think the game is played on a X360, but X360 also sees that more memory is available.
Educate yourself:
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
i was talking about the people that do not own the system. follow the conversation and dont be sour and ignorant as shit
Mattyp
Gold Member
I’ve never read a post on this forum so wrong and dumb about xbox emulation.
Im so confused on what’s not gutter trash when the X plays a tone of games at 4K and improved in every single way they could be sold as remastees. Can you point me to some better emulation?
KyoZz
Tag, you're it.
Hahaha yeah, but no:
I think I did pretty well, did not I? But if indeed you where talking about "people that do not own the system", it wasn't clear and it seems rather that you put everyone in the same basket. So maybe I'm ignorant as shit and my English isn't perfect, but I do not do generalities insinuating that people that want to play by emulation = pirates
baphomet
Member
You were talking about people playing it on Xbox one. You do realize RDR is not an Xbox one game right? Some people may not own the system and own the game.
It's not emulation dude. The Xbox One isn't nearly fast enough to actually emulate the 360.
Ellis
Member
Shifty
Member
The 360 BC is implemented via an emulation-virtual machine hybrid? That's fascinating, a really interesting way to achieve it.
And, would you look at that, I actually educated myself rather than bringing a bitter shitpost to the table right out of the gate. What a world we live in!
Evidently you don't know the meaning of the word.
But by all means, present your case as to why exactly this method isn't emulation. With the proper evidence, quoted sources and a compelling argument I'm sure you could swing some of us unenlightened plebs to your way of thinking.
No, most of the people replying are the ones that don't know what emulation actually is.
https://www.gamesradar.com/how-xbox...-last-two-generations-of-xbox-classics-in-4k/
You don't need to download recompiled code in a real emulator. How can you be emulating the original game when you literally have to download a different compilation of the software and can't play the original off the discs you own?
What Microsoft essentially did was design the One hardware so that they could recompile 360 games to run native speed on the system. A real software emulator would be able to load your disc and run the game without downloading anything else. It's an insult to real emulation to even call this emulation in the same sense as BSNES, MAME, etc.
Ellis
Member
"Can a Commodore 64 emulate MS-DOS?"
Yes, it's possible for a [Commodore] 64 to emulate an
IBM PC [which uses MS-DOS], in the same sense that
it's possible to bail out Lake Michigan with a teaspoon.
— Letter to Compute! and editorial answer, April 1988
The baked in assumption, of course, is AT FULL SPEED, but congratulations on being intentionally obtuse just for the sake of bickering.
Ellis
Member
Chill out dude, Jesus.
Shifty
Member
Recompiling code is exactly what emulators do.
Most modern ones use dynamic recompilation or 'dynarec', a.k.a. doing it at runtime just fast enough to execute on the host hardware. Moving that process to build-time instead of runtime doesn't suddenly mean it's no longer 'real emulation', it just means that Microsoft have built a pipeline around digital distribution that allows them to curate and tweak on a game-by-game basis instead of winging it and hoping that nothing breaks when the user plugs in an unsupported game.
To quote the article you posted-
The Xbox One is still pretending to be a 360. The code itself is still a 360 binary. Even with compatibility and enhancement modifications applied, that is still the definition of emulation.Bill Stillwell said:
It's not like they contacted each and every studio, requested the source code for their game, and then ported it to the Xbox One APIs as you would with a HD remaster. That would be 'not real emulation'.
Not at all, emulation doesn't stop being emulation the instant you dip below 100% performance. Any Turing-complete system can emulate, even if it's agonizingly slow.
Yeah no, real game emulators run real time using the real original bits. The code itself ISN'T a 360 binary anymore. It's PowerPC code recompiled to x86 in an unknown process that could have resulted in subtle changes in behavior. Who knows what the fuck they screwed up. Recompiling a PowerPC program to x86, repackaging it and redownloading it isn't emulation anymore. It's a new game. It might as well be a port at that point. And you realize that "basically" means no, they're not "running it in a 360," they recompiled the program. Microsoft "basically" automated porting, which is fine, but don't call it emulation.
Multiple, actually accurate (ie. not marketing bullshit like "running in a 360") explanations from developers:
Thanks for playing.
Last edited:
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
You seem to have a wrong idea about emulation. And before you say I am pulling out of my ass, I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and Embedded Systems was one of the topics in my final year.
Basically there is both hardware and software emulation and Xbox 360 is a combination of both. Originally they were designing an Xbox 360 emulator for x86 systems since 2007, when there was no Xbox One. If you are still on the 'pure software emulation' thing then let me tell you that OG Xbox is pure software emulation in both the Xbox 360 and Xbox One. Xbox One X can not only emulate OG Xbox/Xbox 360 but also enhance them to 4K. On another note I wish Microsoft also made MSX and MS-DOS backwards compatible.
Also, they don't recompile or change anything (except for the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy), the original code is left untouched and all changes are done at emulator level.
Again they don't read from disc because they completely remove region locking, and whether you buy digitally or play physically they want you to play the same version of game which they tasted. The downloaded version contains they game with its customised emulator (which is customised to tweak the settings of the game like you tweak a PC game, to run better).
Last edited:
Electrical engineering isn't synonymous with software emulation, so your appeal to authority is worthless. I linked a Reddit thread in which multiple emulation developers described the process.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ellis
Member
You need to grow up mate.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
So, some redditor knows better than a guy who has studied Embedded Systems in a university ?
Also, can you stop this nonsense about 'recompiling', the Xbox 360 environment is emulated by the Xbox One and the untouched Xbox 360 code is run inside that environment. If they were recompiling all games, they wouldn't have released 500+ backwards compatible games till now.
Last edited:
Some redditor? You mean someone who's actually written and released working emulators used by millions of people around the world on dozens of platforms?
Yeah, I'll take that over some kid who WROTE A PAPER FOR SCHOOL (and actually demonstrated he doesn't know what he's talking about by coming to the wrong conclusions).
Last edited:
MMaRsu
Banned
I have the original game right here on disc. If I ever get a powerful pc to run this, I might do just what you are suggesting. Probably even easier than finding a working download link.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
And that guy Faustian_Blur seems to be an emulator enthusiast who posts on reddit and in most cases(especially in coding) does not know what he is talking about, same with Crimson_V. They dont seem to be working on any emulator themselves, also I have added more details to my previous posts to spoon-feed you.
Last edited:
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Its vastly better than a lot of open source emulators. Your point was that Microsoft's effort is pure garbage which is just pure bullshit.
I mean, your GAF carreer consists of posting the worst possible takes in order to rile up others (And congratulations are in order, since in this very thread you seem to have catched a few in your trap!) but as soon as you are called out on it, you begin a game of deflecting and, when that does not work, you move to the highly questionable act of putting those who reason with you with logic on the ignore list, so it appears like your point never gets contested.
If nearly everyone in the industry is so terrible at their game (heh) and you aren't going to provide explanations, then do it better. You won't, because that would mean you would be actually working full time in the industry, beating out dummies like Naughty Dog, and making better games than Mario Oddysey and Zelda: Breath of the Wild, two games which you have berated recently in similarly termed hyperbolics.
It feels similar to Transmeta's Crusoe processor, which did dynamic recompilation - Except Microsoft went to town with that idea. A few bits are also hardware assisted, aswell, so its really a hybrid approach, but even DF calls it an emulator. But i guess only Dirthead knows how things work here.
Relevant DF text in spoiler:
''Basically, we have a VGPU - or an Xbox 360 GPU that we've recompiled into x86 - and we run the entire 360 OS stack," explains Bill Stillwell, Xbox Platform Lead. "We take each game, we recompile it so that it runs, but basically we're running it still in a 360, and the team goes through the game with multiple passes."
In the first pass, the team collects GPU shaders, and what Stillwell describes as 'Enlightenments', a term we hadn't come across before. "Enlightenments are our starting point for making game transcompilation better," he says. "This is more a CPU requirement than a GPU one. Enlightenments tell us what instructions wrote to hardware, function entry points, and so on. Basically, the set of information we need to know upfront when we first build."
Helping the task immensely is the fact that certain aspects of the Xbox 360 hardware design are indeed built into the Xbox One processor - specifically, support for texture formats and audio. "It's what makes this sort of possible for us, because then we can take all of those shaders that we collect and we can package them and all the Enlightenments, and then we just go through and we do actual performance playthroughs to determine that the emulator is executing everything right."
It's not an easy task because fundamentally, the Xbox 360's PowerPC processor is worlds apart from Xbox One's x86 foundation. Floating point calculations need to be adapted from 40-bit to 32-bit, with potential implications for aspects like collision detection, but Microsoft's aim here is clear - to be able to host game code on their virtualised Xbox 360 and for it to run as close as possible to original hardware.''
In the first pass, the team collects GPU shaders, and what Stillwell describes as 'Enlightenments', a term we hadn't come across before. "Enlightenments are our starting point for making game transcompilation better," he says. "This is more a CPU requirement than a GPU one. Enlightenments tell us what instructions wrote to hardware, function entry points, and so on. Basically, the set of information we need to know upfront when we first build."
Helping the task immensely is the fact that certain aspects of the Xbox 360 hardware design are indeed built into the Xbox One processor - specifically, support for texture formats and audio. "It's what makes this sort of possible for us, because then we can take all of those shaders that we collect and we can package them and all the Enlightenments, and then we just go through and we do actual performance playthroughs to determine that the emulator is executing everything right."
It's not an easy task because fundamentally, the Xbox 360's PowerPC processor is worlds apart from Xbox One's x86 foundation. Floating point calculations need to be adapted from 40-bit to 32-bit, with potential implications for aspects like collision detection, but Microsoft's aim here is clear - to be able to host game code on their virtualised Xbox 360 and for it to run as close as possible to original hardware.''
Dirthead really is just pure bitterness. He even admitted this as much in a post not too long ago on how bitter he was that Bloodborne was not on the PC. Its honestly a bit sad.
Evidently you do not understand that a lot of things can be emulation, going from high level emulation or HLE (Like UltraHLE) or cycle-accurate (Like Higan. Which is actually BSNES so what you are referencing is just outdated stuff. So much for an emulation expert like yourself, hm?) Again, educate yourself on what kinds of accuracy are available in emulation town.
A fascinating list of claims:
- ''Real game emulators run real time using the real original bits'': - If it uses the real original bits, then its basically the same console, not an emulator. You are referring to soft cores in a FPGA that mimic the exact same hardware, effectively making it hardware emulation.
- ''It's PowerPC code recompiled to x86 in an unknown process that could have resulted in subtle changes in behavior'': - So you don't know the process yet you call it garbage anyways. Fascinating. It is not recompiled in the exact sense of the word, it runs through a x86 based hypervisor providing a virtual process. That virtual process is a complete Xbox 360. The game sees an X360 game, but the virtual process allows it to use the benefits of the XBO.
- ''Who knows what the fuck they screwed up'': - Nothing, the games actually run better on average. Some dips apparent on X360 are gone, but in some other occasions, the Virtual Process suffers from the same deficits as the X360 when we talk about performance. Here is a Digital Foundry article from 2016 who tested every BC game up to that point. The conclusion to that is: The majority of games works perfectly, a lot of them are improved, others have slight issues but are still playable and only 2 are really unplayable. If you want more detailed numbers, i can give them.
What is downloaded is a profile so that the disc is recognized. By calling it a new game/port, you are literally fooling yourselves.
Mind you, i actually first thought that they basically did what you described, making a port. Then i read up on the inner workings and realized its far from carrying that namesake.
Says who? You, the expert on emulation with a blistering resume of hot air behind his belt? Please. Your opinion has nearly no value yet you carry it along like you found the Dead Man's Chest from POTC.
And yet you still got it so wrong, so that most likely means your reading comprehension is so terrible.
You think you are so clever in inventing edgy remarks to people, but luck of the draw is, you know even less than the people you accuse of not knowing much about the subject. That's actually the sad part. The saddest part however is that you are completely unaware of how your tone and condescend comes across, and you speak as if you are an expert on the topic.
Which you aren't, by the way. Your D-Tier takes and argumentation skills are basically the LV.1 Crook meme in textual form. In reality, that means you are skirting close to Trolldom, the land where Not-Taken-Seriously Town and Deflection City are the closest things you can call home.
He won't. He shuts down people who actually present evidence that they have some knowledge in the field, and all Dirthead has is a claim to a developer. Dude has never bothered to present a resume of his work and is not going to anyways, or he would have done so already.
Last edited:
Shotpun
Member
I'm doing exactly that, I've been importing US NTSC PS1 games since last summer to PAL ridden euroland and I don't own a Playstation. Shipping + taxes isn't exactly cheap but easily worth it to me.
I am probably like one of the 0.1% who do that but not everyone pirate them.
Mass Nerder
Banned
Man oh man. This thread is BRUTAL.
So this dirthead dude is a PC fanboy through and through, correct?
So this dirthead dude is a PC fanboy through and through, correct?