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[diaspora]

They wouldn't sell us stuff that we wouldn't buy, yeah. They adapt their products to our market. This is called localization.

Exactly, which is different than say- Stick of Truth in Australia where they weren't able to bring their game to the market due to legal restrictions.

 

[redmetal86]

I, for one, am disappointed that I can't design a male character with appropriate dick size.

Has there ever been a slider for that in games? I feel like there has, but I can' t remember.

 

[kuroneko0509]

(also breasts are not sexualization)

bwahahaha

 

[diaspora]

Has there ever been a slider for that in games? I feel like there has, but I can' t remember.

Someone get cracking on Saints Row 5.

 

[RM8]

Exactly, which is different than say- Stick of Truth in Australia where they weren't able to bring their game to the market due to legal restrictions.

Yup.

BTW the McDonald's analogy works pretty well because the censored Mexican version is great, you guys don't have McMolletes.

 

[Nyoro SF]

They aren't being censored. I suppose you could call it "self-censorship," but that's no different than making changes to your work that you think will make it more palatable to specific audience.

The whole "out of fear" stuff is just your interpretation.

I won't deny that fear is my interpretation, but it's the most logical one since it's tied to a character creator. "Palatable" is an empty word with no meaning, so I'd like to hear your actual reasoning.

I'm not going to argue definitions any more with people; the removal of a creation option for a region is censorship, it doesn't matter who does it; whether it's the original creator, the creator's mom or your friendly neighborhood localization firm.

 

[Amneisac]

Name something else that ever gets censored and that everyone is a okay with

(also breasts are not sexualization)

People might not be "A Okay" with other things that are censored from games, but we don't have massive blow-up threads like we do over this topic. If I surveyed someone and said, do you think Australia should remove gore from games, or Germany should remove Nazis, you'd probably say, "no", right? But no one defends issues like that as vigorously as they do the right to sexualize the female form! We get a bunch of laudable, high-principled people on NeoGAF when it comes to discussion about how women are portrayed in these localizations.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Why does the line have to be drawn there? Shouldn't a creator be free to decide that they want to make a change to something after the fact?

What about VNs that had sex scenes in the original Japanese release to help sell them to a specific market over there? Should those games be saddled with those scenes when localized for other markets where they don't need that content to find an audience in the new market?

I just wanna decide what content to consume based on said content being presented as closely as possible to the actual creators' vision.

Regarding your example, let me decide as the consumer what I want rather than edit it for me.

 

[Nyoro SF]

People might not be "A Okay" with other things that are censored from games, but we don't have massive blow-up threads like we do over this topic. If I surveyed someone and said, do you think Australia should remove gore from games, or Germany should remove Nazis, you'd probably say, "no", right? But no one defends issues like that as vigorously as they do the right to sexualize the female form! We get a bunch of laudable, high-principled people on NeoGAF when it comes to discussion about how women are portrayed in these localizations.

Dude, the Australians and Germans get mad as hell when their games get censored. There just isn't that many of them here compared to all of Europe and America so the volume is way lower.

 

[diaspora]

I won't deny that fear is my interpretation, but it's the most logical one since it's tied to a character creator. "Palatable" is an empty word with no meaning, so I'd like to hear your actual reasoning.

I'm not going to argue definitions any more with people; the removal of a creation option for a region is censorship, it doesn't matter who does it; whether it's the original creator, the creator's mom or your friendly neighborhood localization firm.

Stick of Truth's "message" was suppressed by being blocked for sale by the government until those specific scenes were excised- equating that which is actual censorship to creators changing their messages for a different audience of their own volition is ridiculous.

Dude, the Australians and Germans get mad as hell when their games get censored. There just isn't that many of them here compared to all of Europe and America so the volume is way lower.

Their games get changed due to legal and rating restrictions in those areas rather than of the creators own initiative.

 

[Amneisac]

I won't deny that fear is my interpretation, but it's the most logical one since it's tied to a character creator. "Palatable" is an empty word with no meaning, so I'd like to hear your actual reasoning.

I'm not going to argue definitions any more with people; the removal of a creation option for a region is censorship, it doesn't matter who does it; whether it's the original creator, the creator's mom or your friendly neighborhood localization firm.

No one said it wasn't censorship, just that self-censorship in the interest of making a game more appealing to a particular market is not the same thing as - for example - a government agency preventing the sale of a game, or forcing the removal of content from a game because it is restricted by law.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Has there ever been a slider for that in games? I feel like there has, but I can' t remember.

I could be wrong, but I swear I remember it in at least a Saint's Row game. I think the slider was called "sex appeal", and it governed bulges for men and breasts for women.

 

[elyetis]

-The character creator has been modified so that the bust slider has been removed and so therefore when creating a female character, all female characters created by the player have by default medium-sized breasts.

So we finaly got to that point, was sadly faster than expected.

 

[shadow2810]

Why does the line have to be drawn there? Shouldn't a creator be free to decide that they want to make a change to something after the fact?

What about VNs that had sex scenes in the original Japanese release to help sell them to a specific market over there? Should those games be saddled with those scenes when localized for other markets where they don't need that content to find an audience in the new market?

How will they publish those VN games if they keep the content intact? I'm pretty sure Steam doesn't allow that kind of games.

 

[Fencedude]

bwahahaha

Breasts too small: OMG SEXUALIZING LITTLE GIRLS

Breasts too big: OMG SEXUALIZING BIG BREASTS

Breasts just right: OMG BOOBS

like seriously

 

[Hitokiri]

What I have a problem with is the connotation of CENSORSHIP that gets tossed around in these threads as if there is a Department of Decency in the government that is mandating that this content be removed. The publisher removed it, sure it's censorship, but it's self-censorship. They can do that if they want to. Why is it only ever a problem when it has something to do with sexualized women in games?

Because that's mostly what it get applied to, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I'm against it for any such purposes. In games localized for Japan, it tends to be excessive violence. I'm against that too (though I guess I'd be okay with adding the option to tone things down for people bothered by some of that stuff, since that wouldn't remove it for everyone who played) but it doesn't get talked about much among English speakers because, well, it doesn't affect them. One non-sexualization thing that comes to mind is a change to FF6 in the GBA re-release, however, that change was not done in localization, it was done to the JP release and then we got stuck with it too.

And that kinda gets to the heart of the issue for me. Self-censorship, to the extent it makes any sense at all, is things like the Skull Girls (I think?) pantyshot update. The creators decided it wasn't appropriate and changed it. I'm not okay with that kind of thing if it's, say, removing a scene from a movie entirely and making sure no one can ever see it (at least include it as an extra). But slightly changing a character model? At least in that situation, sure, whatever. But.... that's not quite what's happening here. The JP version HAS NOT CHANGED. This isn't the original creators having some epiphany about some negative aspect of their product or something. This is a *localization* change. It is a change, strictly removing content and options, for only the localization, for some fear or offending people in a different region. And I'm not sure if it's better or worse that it's entirely optional stuff, stuff nobody that would be bothered by it would ever have to see if they didn't want to.

And, like, I can sooort of understand why people have started to read "censorship" as being implicitly about the government, since for years idiots have whined about free speech and/or their first amendment rights for a billion things that had nothing to do with those. But that is not the only thing "censorship" gets used for, nor is it implicit in the use of the word or the only time it's wrong or can or should be objected to.

 

[FyreWulff]

Because it's not about one costume, or a boob slider. It's the message that playing fast and loose with policing content and deciding for us is OK.

You can't police what a developer decides to do with their own game.

 

[diaspora]

Because that's mostly what it get applied to, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I'm against it for any such purposes. In games localized for Japan, it tends to be excessive violence. I'm against that too (though I guess I'd be okay with adding the option to tone things down for people bothered by some of that stuff, since that wouldn't remove it for everyone who played) but it doesn't get talked about much among English speakers because, well, it doesn't affect them. One non-sexualization thing that comes to mind is a change to FF6 in the GBA re-release, however, that change was not done in localization, it was done to the JP release and then we got stuck with it too.

And that kinda gets to the heart of the issue for me. Self-censorship, to the extent it makes any sense at all, is things like the Skull Girls (I think?) pantyshot update. The creators decided it wasn't appropriate and changed it. I'm not okay with that kind of thing if it's, say, removing a scene from a movie entirely and making sure no one can ever see it (at least include it as an extra). But slightly changing a character model? At least in that situation, sure, whatever. But.... that's not quite what's happening here. The JP version HAS NOT CHANGED. This isn't the original creators having some epiphany about some negative aspect of their product or something. This is a *localization* change. It is a change, strictly removing content and options, for only the localization, for some fear or offending people in a different region. And I'm not sure if it's better or worse that it's entirely optional stuff, stuff nobody that would be bothered by it would ever have to see if they didn't want to.

And, like, I can sooort of understand why people have started to read "censorship" as being implicitly about the government, since for years idiots have whined about free speech and/or their first amendment rights for a billion things that had nothing to do with those. But that is not the only thing "censorship" gets used for, nor is it implicit in the use of the word or the only time it's wrong or can or should be objected to.

See this? This is a fiction you've invented for yourself.

You can't police what a developer decides to do with their own game.

"Content creators aren't allowed to change their own game"

 

[Fencedude]

You can't police what a developer decides to do with their own game.

You can criticize it though. And point out when its not consistently applied.

 

[Makonero]

You can't police what a developer decides to do with their own game.

I mean, who are we to tell developers what to do? Isn't it THEIR ART? Who are we to decide the ARTISTIC MERIT of this stuff? Clearly the ARTISTS know better than us!

 

[RM8]

People have such unrealistic expectations and perspectives. "I should be able to decide" is not an argument, this company wants this product to appeal to as many people as possible within this target market.

 

[TheOnePercent]

You can't police what a developer decides to do with their own game.

I don't think NOA or 8-4 developed this game. Is this a change Monolith Soft actually wanted?

 

[Amneisac]

I mean, who are we to tell developers what to do? Isn't it THEIR ART? Who are we to decide the ARTISTIC MERIT of this stuff? Clearly the ARTISTS know better than us!

Who are we - we're the people who buy the game. So if the Publisher, who pays the Developer to make the game, wants it changed because they think it will cause us to buy more copies or have a better experience with the game - it gets changed.

 

[Astral Dog]

I could be wrong, but I swear I remember it in at least a Saint's Row game. I think the slider was called "sex appeal", and it governed bulges for men and breasts for women.

They need to bring it back and call it The "Shulk"

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

You can't police what a developer decides to do with their own game.

The mere fact that they feel the need to tamper with their game like this shows they are being policed via pressure from a supposed more conservative demographic to keep their output as inoffensive as possible.

People have such unrealistic expectations and perspectives. "I should be able to decide" is not an argument, this company wants this product to appeal to as many people as possible within this target market.

You're taking away the most fundamental power of the consumer if you are suggesting they should be stripped of their ability to choose and decide.

 

[Hitokiri]

Why does the line have to be drawn there? Shouldn't a creator be free to decide that they want to make a change to something after the fact?

What about VNs that had sex scenes in the original Japanese release to help sell them to a specific market over there? Should those games be saddled with those scenes when localized for other markets where they don't need that content to find an audience in the new market?

In most such cases, there was a version without the porn in Japan already. Some people insist on only playing the original versions (even though most people that play them agree that the sex scenes are generally terrible in the story-focused ones). The only times I've seen any real backlash was in a case where they changed a bunch of other things (including removing /kissing/) on top of that.

 

[Fencedude]

People have such unrealistic expectations and perspectives. "I should be able to decide" is not an argument, this company wants this product to appeal to as many people as possible within this target market.

I am 100% positive that there are zero people who would refuse the buy the game because you can change the size of player character's breasts.

Like, none.

This is 100% about the EXISTENTIAL TERROR that has gripped certain segments about flatchested characters.

The Lin changes are silly (I would have just aged her up to like, 16 or something, unless her being 13 is some incredibly vital plotpoint), but making this change for the Player Character who is an actual adult is silly.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Interesting that they cherry-picked this as one of a handful of physical features though, isn't it?

Because it's something that can have a large degree of very visible variance from person to person and also isn't particularly costly to implement vs. most of the things that they don't let you customize?

I mean, yeah, fanservice is probably a secondary reason for it, but it's not the sole reason why you can customize that and not other things.

 

[diaspora]

I don't think NOA or 8-4 developed this game. Is this a change Monolith Soft actually wanted?

The idea that NOA/8-4 would make changes that run counter to the wishes of Monolith is so god damn ridiculous.

The mere fact that they feel the need to tamper with their game like this shows they are being policed via pressure from a supposed more conservative demographic to keep their output as inoffensive as possible.

Tales From My Ass: Electric Boogaloo

 

[BGBW]

This sticks out to me in every one of these threads. Cries of "CENSORSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" are never about political themes, philosophies, religious themes, racial themes, etc. It's not even about feminism. It's always sexualized nonsense that comes across as pandering and gross, especially to Western audiences.

Ah yes, all those games with hard hitting themes like politics and racism.

It's quite obvious why sexual related issues are the only ones ever brought up, that's about as far as videogames have gotten with tackling adult issues, especially mainstream commercial games. That and violence.

 

[Amneisac]

The mere fact that they feel the need to tamper with their game like this shows they are being policed via pressure from a supposed more conservative demographic to keep their output as inoffensive as possible.

"POLICED" - c'mon now. Just because NoA doesn't want a mom buying a game for her 13 year old kid and walking in and seeing him blow her bikini-clad titties up in character creation isn't the complete destruction of MSoft's creative vision.

 

[TheOnePercent]

The idea that NOA/8-4 would make changes that run counter to the wishes of Monolith is so god damn ridiculous.

Then why did Monolith Soft put it in the game in the first place?

 

[Hitokiri]

See this? This is a fiction you've invented for yourself.

Everyone else in this thread seems to agree that these changes actually are happening and many of the posts in this thread are showing exactly the attitude I'm referring to, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

[chadboban]

Yeah, when I read about the glowing previews that the game is getting I wondered what will the complains will be about next. Didn't have to wait too much.

Ooooh new previews? Where are you reading about them?

 

[Pellegri Testament]

See this? This is a fiction you've invented for yourself.

What's the "fiction" in what he said exactly? Because they seem to have made it very clear what they think we can handle and what we can't.

 

[Fencedude]

Because it's something that can have a large degree of very visible variance from person to person and also isn't particularly costly to implement vs. most of the things that they don't let you customize?

I mean, yeah, fanservice is probably a secondary reason for it, but it's not the sole reason why you can customize that and not other things.

The thing about the fanservice argument is that literally /every/ size of boobs is someone's fetish, so on that front the only way apparently you couldn't win is by just not having female characters at all.

OMG YOU LIKE CHARACTERS WITH BIG BOOBS GROSS

OMG YOU LIKE CHARACTERS WITH SMALL BOOBS GROSS

OMG YOU LIKE CHARACTERS WITH BOOBS OF SOME SORT OF AVERAGE SIZE GROSS

Like, where do you even stop?

 

[RM8]

I am 100% positive that there are zero people who would refuse the buy the game because you can change the size of player character's breasts.

Like, none.

This is 100% about the EXISTENTIAL TERROR that has gripped certain segments about flatchested characters.

The Lin changes are silly (I would have just aged her up to like, 16 or something, unless her being 13 is some incredibly vital plotpoint), but making this change for the Player Character who is an actual adult is silly.

I'm pretty sure the slider change was a consequence of Lin's changes, though. Now you can't make a skimpy Lin lookalike.

 

[Nairume]

How will they publish those VN games if they keep the content intact? I'm pretty sure Steam doesn't allow that kind of games.

Within reason, they could just do what most places that sell uncensored VNs do and sell them directly or from one of the few minor stores that do allow pornographic content.

But, that just makes it even more important that they not be bound from altering the game in the localization process. Removing that material is the difference between an entirely audience of people who wouldn't even find it otherwise. Is it really that important that games like Fate/stay Night retain the few unimportant scenes of nudity and sex when it's the difference between them being available on Steam and other major outlets?

 

[diaspora]

What's the "fiction" in what he said exactly? Because they seem to have made it very clear what they think we can handle and what we can't.

They haven't ultimately said anything, this idea of fear and suppression is some fanfiction people have created for themselves.

 

[Fencedude]

Then why did Monolith Soft put it in the game in the first place?

Because the Japanese are gross (Small/Large) Breast lovers, unlike us awesome, progressive Americans

 

[UberTag]

I wondered if they removed that chicken monster with the chin testicles.

The Ballchinnians shall not be censored.
The Ballchinnians rule over all mankind.

 

[FyreWulff]

The mere fact that they feel the need to tamper with their game like this shows they are being policed via pressure from a supposed more conservative demographic to keep their output as inoffensive as possible.

Developers are allowed to change their minds. We change our minds all the time during development. If we stuck with the first idea that came out of our ass for every game we'd all be playing Big Rigs.

You're taking away the most fundamental power of the consumer if you are suggesting they should be stripped of their ability to choose and decide.

If you don't like a game, don't fucking buy it. Developers aren't obligated to anyone's money and you are not obligated to anyone's game.

 

[diaspora]

Then why did Monolith Soft put it in the game in the first place?

They put it in for their Japanese audience, ultimately nobody's been able to prove that it's what they wanted to deliver for other regions.

 

[Malick[AI]]

That slider change is ridiculous.

 

[Fencedude]

I'm pretty sure the slider change was a consequence of Lin's changes, though. Now you can't make a skimpy Lin lookalike.

Which A) I think is a silly objection and B) Would have been more effective by restricting the height slider.

Or are we just going to go with criminalizing adult women with A-Cups?

 

[Tevos]

I'm fine with the Lin changes.

Removing shit from the character creator is really stupid, though.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

"POLICED" - c'mon now. Just because NoA doesn't want a mom buying a game for her 13 year old kid and walking in and seeing him blow her bikini-clad titties up in character creation isn't the complete destruction of MSoft's creative vision.

Again, it's about the precedent.

If Mom wants to keep her teenage kid away from boobs (good luck) she can inform herself and follow the ratings on the box.

 

[RM8]

Which A) I think is a silly objection and B) Would have been more effective by restricting the height slider.

Or are we just going to go with criminalizing adult women with A-Cups?

Hey, you're free to think it's silly. And lol, we're not going to criminalize anything because we're talking about an animu video game.

 

[BGBW]

If you don't like a game, don't fucking buy it. Developers aren't obligated to anyone's money and you are not obligated to anyone's game.

You must enjoy 100% of all aspects of the game! Do not buy if you disagree with even 1% of it!

 

[Fencedude]

Hey, you're free to think it's silly. And lol, we're not going to criminalize anything because we're talking about an animu video game.

By that logic why even discuss anything?

Like OMG its just a game why can't I make a character with GG-cups who's 4 feet tall? Its just an Animu game right? What does it matter?