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[#Phonepunk#]

Rian Johnson "Are you kidding ? Vader is worse than Kylo, Kylo is redeemable"

Do you agree with this statement? What is your opinion on the possible redemption of Kylo Ren?

Personally, I strongly disagree.

This is the evidence as far I can see.

Darth Vader
The prequels portray first (1) a very innocent and hate-free child and (2) a conflicting child becoming a man, and losing the only thing that ever truly mattered, his family. AOTC had an act of vengeance, morally shady, yet IMO entirely justified. ROTS begins his true reign of terror, and he is personally responsible for killing a number of Jedi, including younglings, but that's about it. He never uses a superweapon until ANH, where the Death Star blows up 1 planet, Alderaan.

ESB, though it portrays a competent and threatening Empire, only ever shows up killing random Rebel redshirts at Hoth. Lando and his city under siege make it out okay, and Luke & Han even make it out alive. As Vader gazes out the window at the end of ESB, force cuts showing us Luke and Vader thinking of one another across the stars drive home the impact of his traumatic confrontation with his son. IMO here is when he starts to turn.

ROTJ has another Death Star but it is never fired. the Empire only ever takes out some Rebels and Ewoks in the end battle, and they lose in the end. Vader's reign of terror sort of ends at Bespin. When he killed the Emperor, sacrificing his own life for the potential lives of trillions, he saved the galaxy (until this fanfic came along), he gave his life for the lives of others. This is selflessness. This is the act of a hero. It doesn't wipe away the blood on his hands, but it is a gift of hope and peace to the future.

Kylo Ren
Right away in TFA he is shown massacring a village. It is unclear if these are rebels, because you remember that Vader was introduced on a ship full of rebels fighting in a war. Here this could be a village of largely civilians, and they are being exterminated with flamethrowers. Vader was more or less only ever killing Jedi Knights, Jedi in training, or Rebels. we never really saw the Empire just bomb a random town. yet we see that happen again later, when they blow up Maz Kanata's castle. the Resistance is supposed to be a secret thing, with dumb decoder rings, so what we are witnessing over and over in the ST is the destruction of largely civilian settlements. Then the Starkiller Base happens, and he personally oversees the destruction of the Hosnian system, which is a total of 5 planets.

That is already 4 planets more than Darth Vader. Before the end of TFA Kylo Ren has personally slaughtered masses of civilians and overseen the destruction of 5 times the planets Darth Vader did in the PT and OT. On top of that, there is Han Solo, there is Luke Skywalker, but personally, I don't give famous people more weight in the moral stakes. "Vader killed younglings" yet Kylo's turning night apparently involved him killing a bunch of Jedi trainees at Luke's new temple. Kylo in TLJ has assumed command, he has assumed responsibility, by killing Snoke, and the entire time they are killing all of the Resistance. But no matter what, killing 5 planets is killing trillions and trillions of lives. This is intergalactic genocide on a ridiculous scale. In one film he does 5 times the destruction Anakin did across 6 films.

As far as his relationships go, he doesn't have any that aren't violent or toxic and manipulative, he killed his father, he hasn't spoken to his mother in 2 films now (despite them being on the same planet staring at each other WHAT THE FUCK RIAN), he is a purely selfish person, and he is played by a good enough actor that can convince millions of people that his self pitying routine is deep and complex. IMO Kylo is a whiny Affluenza super Hitler who deserves a coward's death.

 

[Tesseract]

how is a man who commits patricide redeemable

 

[DeepEnigma]

Rian, just stop talking.

 

[mcz117chief]

Vader was a genocidal maniac who annihilated entire planet's worth of populations. He routinely ordered entire planets to be purged. Kylo is basically Vader-lite. Everyone deserves a shot at redemption.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I answered No/No because I don't Know/Know how the poll works exactly

I ain't too smart, bub

 

[triplestation]

i remember my first beer

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

This dude does not know when to shut up

 

[#Phonepunk#]

He routinely ordered entire planets to be purged

when did this happen? not in any PT or OT films.

if this is in a Disney comic i don't consider that canon.

 

[Potato Chip PRO]

I think Rian on that Dollar Tree coke that you can find behind their dumpsters...

 

[mcz117chief]

when did this happen? not in any PT or OT films.

if this is in a Disney comic i don't consider that canon.

EU. Base Delta Zero was probably Vader's favorite pastime.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

one interesting point is, Vader is seen killing Imperials routinely. he threatens someone with asphyxiation at a meeting and he also chokes out a number of high ranking officers. this is actually a point in favor of Vader.

Kylo Ren has never done this, has he? he just impotently slashes his lightsaber at a wall.

 

[mcz117chief]

one interesting point is, Vader is seen killing Imperials routinely. this is actually a point in favor of Vader.

Kylo Ren has never done this, has he? he just impotently but nonviolently slashes his lightsaber at a wall.

Vader killing "his own" was absolutely not in the best interest of the Rebellion. Vader hated nepotism, bribery, etc. He only ever kills those who gained power without earning it. Vader valued results and competence, so when he found a dumb captain who gained his position through corruption or family ties he got rid of them at the first opportunity. That is why people around Vader were so effective and feared, because they all earned their positions.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I guess there were the pretorian guards but they were just guards for Snoke who served no other purpose

 

[bitbydeath]

Emo-Vader

 

[*Nightwing]

Uhhh.... wasn't Vaders redemption the entire sub theme between Luke and him in ROTJ? Coulda swore I saw Vader throw the emporer down a chazim to save Luke in a symbolic sense turning away from the dark side and sacrificing his life to look his son in the eyes. And I certainly remember Lucas stating such when explaining the prequels back when those were being made and explaining why Anakins turn was it's focus. So WTF is Ryan Jackass on about again? All his comments continuously demonstrate his lack of basic understanding of this universe and put into question whether he has even watched the original movies or just went off of pop culture knowledge to produce his cinematic masturbatory ejaculate.

 

[ExpandKong]

But people wanted to see Vader redeemed because of what it meant to Luke. Nobody wants to see Kylo redeemed, because he is a fucknugget and everyone who cared about him is dead pretty much by his own hand.

Fuck ‘em. Fuck Rian too while you’re at it.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Vader was a genocidal maniac who annihilated entire planet's worth of populations. He routinely ordered entire planets to be purged. Kylo is basically Vader-lite. Everyone deserves a shot at redemption.

How can he be Vader-lite when he helped blow up 4 times as many planets?

 

[sol_bad]

one interesting point is, Vader is seen killing Imperials routinely. he threatens someone with asphyxiation at a meeting and he also chokes out a number of high ranking officers. this is actually a point in favor of Vader.

Kylo Ren has never done this, has he? he just impotently slashes his lightsaber at a wall.

It's not a point in favour that he kills imperials, it just shows that he is a psychopath and doesn't care about anyone in his way. Also he potentially killed hundreds of kids at that Jedi temple and helped the Empire take over the galaxy, no doubt killing hundreds of other people.


Where as with the First Order, they seem to be like "rebels" on the bad guys side. Basically doing "small" guerrilla attacks until Starkiller was brought online.

There is 19 years between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope
There is a 1 year to 6 year gap between Kylo Ren going crazy and the start of The Force Awakens.
I'm pretty positive Darth Vader did more acts of terrorism in that 19 year gap than what Kylo Ren did in his 1-6 year gap solely based on the activities of the Empire and First Order at those moments in time.

*EDIT*
Neither Vader or Kylo had anything to do with the super weapons. I'm sure I actually remember Vader despising the Death Star.

 

[mcz117chief]

How can he be Vader-lite when he helped blow up 4 times as many planets?

I'm not an expert on Disney Trilogy but didn't Snoke and that general guy blow them up. I don't consider Alderan Vader's fault either

 

[Caffeine]

someone put tape on his mouth.

 

[Dazrael]

Neither Vader nor Ren personally oversaw the use of the super weapons and the destruction of the planets. Ren just happened to be watching passively at the time and Vader pretty much said that he had no time for the Death Star.

Also the second Death Star was fired, at a Rebel capital ship. It was a major reveal by the Emperor.

 

[kunonabi]

I wish Johnson had spent this much time proving how he little he understands SW before they gave him his own film.

 

[Orenji Neko]

For me, regardless of what it is, if it involves Rian Johnson and Star Wars, my answer is Fuck NO.

 

[Constant Flux]

Rian Johnson is a fucking idiot. What else needs to be said?

 

[Weilthain]

Vader:

killed all those little kids.
Killed the remaining Jedi.
Choked that guy at the start of anh
Built c3-p0

Kylo: killed a bunch of peers/young adults
Killed the weirdo beard guy at the start of FA.
Killed his dad.


They both seem as bad as each other. To be fair they play up kylos inner struggle with the darkside more than Vader.

I can see kylo “snapping out of it” and escaping the dark side and dying heroicly.

 

[Come On Tars]

The most interesting thing about this new series is Kylo. I hope they do a good bad swap with Rey.

 

[Punished Miku]

Vader is also redeemable. Spoiler for episode VI.

 

[MetalAlien]

Vader is also redeemable. Spoiler for episode VI.

Yea I mean he has already been redeemed.. maybe Rian didn't watch the older films?

 

[GreyHorace]

Why is Rian Johnson being a sperg about all this? Many people found his movie sucked. He should just get over it and move on, not try to defend his creative choices whether they deserve it or not. Or is he still sore over The Last Jedi's reception costing him that trilogy deal with Disney and taking it out on the fans?

I say this as someone who thought The Last Jedi okay (I do acknowledge the problems with it though), and Kylo Ren being the best part of the new trilogy.

 

[Constant Flux]

Kylo Ren is pretty cool... I’ll give you that. I agree with Come On Tars. They need to turn Kylo good and Rey bad. That would be about the only thing they could do to salvage this trilogy.

 

[GV82]

Rian is Trying to make Star Wars intellectual series like a Star Trek or something but it doesn’t work it just bores the core audience, “oh it’s not for fanboys Star Wars has & will always be for kids” okay fair enough why were the kids bored of the LAST Jedi then, no amount of progs could save it, plus Rian why did you make it over complicated & boring for kids then? TLJ would be an okay movie if it was a generic Sci-Fi Movie, or if it was a throwaway Disney+ show or a Star Wars Story Side Movie we could go “well it’s not an episode movie so it doesn’t matter”.
Also it wasn’t just “Fanboys” that didn’t like the last Jedi a LOT of people didn’t like the Last Jedi kids & even Casual Fans.

Now he is like the cancel culture or resetera era members who are like “Well actually Kylo Ren is ....... “ & “Men need to be cancelled because they didn’t like rose “ never mind the fact the same men liked Leia, Ashoka, Ventress and most other female characters in Star Wars including Legends characters.

Kylo in TLJ had all firepower aimed on his Uncle, not knowing he was a hologram did Rian forget he wrote that in? He tried to laser blast Luke to death with a AT-AT.

When fans hated (infact despised) Ahsoka at first, Dave Filloni never went round claiming the fans were Toxic & need to be cancelled etc, you know what he did? He just got on with it and wrote her into a more interesting character and got back some fans that way, rather than attack them & drive them even further away and the others weren’t interested, he was like fine let them be. Dave knows he can’t please every Star Wars fan everywhere he gives it a try,

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Kylo Ren is an angry young adult full of impotent rage about the things and people he believes wronged him. Vader was a cold, calculating monster who only saw a glimpse of goodness because of his son. Kylo is presented as confused, conflicted and troubled in both movies, he is not clear in his beliefs or actions, with JJ he used the temper tantrums to show how much control he lacked, with Rian there's the stuff with the visions with Rey as well as Snoke talking about how killing his own father split him in two, not to mention him not being able to pull the trigger on his mother. The signs are there with more setup for a turn than Vader had.

Oh and since this has become some form of indictment of TLJ, let me just say a lot of people like it, there was more universal agreement on the prequels being bad when they came out but now there's this whole legion of TLJ haters who almost always are also prequel fans. Wonder what the next generation will bring.

 

[Dargor]

I would say that Vader is worse than the dude who killed Han Solo.

And no, the dude who killed Han Solo can not be redeemed.

 

[mcz117chief]

Yea I mean he has already been redeemed.. maybe Rian didn't watch the older films?

I think what he meant to say was "if Vader could be redeemed, a person who committed far more terrible things than Kylo, then Kylo is redeemable too." At least I hope so.

 

[Constant Flux]

I think what he meant to say was "if Vader could be redeemed, a person who committed far more terrible things than Kylo, then Kylo is redeemable too." At least I hope so.

Don’t try to make sense of his nonsense.

 

[The Cockatrice]

He's wrong because being evil is awesome and turning that evil slighlty back to the light side was worth it. Kylo is just a smug ass kid.

 

[plushyp]

Rian, just stop talking.

This dude does not know when to shut up

Given his pettiness, snobbishness and extremely sad remarks, I am convinced Rian Johnson suffers from some sort of huge insecurity or inferiority complex.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Given his pettiness, snobbishness and extremely sad remarks, I am convinced Rian Johnson suffers from some sort of huge insecurity or inferiority complex.

I heard he suffers from internet trolls claiming he ruined their favorite franchise because they were too young to understand the prequels already did that.

 

[sol_bad]

Don’t try to make sense of his nonsense.

Rian is a great film maker, check out Brick and Looper if you haven't done so.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Rian is a great film maker, check out Brick and Looper if you haven't done so.

I'd even say re-watch The Last Jedi without coloring it through the lens of hating the evil SJWs or the idea that the force is made up of midi-chlorians and to become a Jedi you need to be abducted as a child and indoctrinated into a cult. The generation that grew up loving Empire didn't hate TLJ, the generation that grew up on the prequels did, I see it over and over. They're behaving just like we did when the prequels ruined the lore and canon, the difference is they're doing it to actually well made films. Brick and Looper are perfect examples of the filmmaker Johnson is, an expert craftsman weaving well done stories.

 

[plushyp]

I heard he suffers from internet trolls claiming he ruined their favorite franchise because they were too young to understand the prequels already did that.

It goes beyond that and he clearly can't handle the criticism from people who actually make valid points. He paints everyone who didn't like his film into a few buzzwords which is quite sad.

The guy used to make good films with JGL in Brick and to a lesser extent Looper. His style of "subversive" film-making and writing isn't suited for franchise films that need to follow a formula.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It goes beyond that and he clearly can't handle the criticism from people who actually make valid points. He paints everyone who didn't like his film into a few buzzwords which is quite sad.

The guy used to make good films with JGL in Brick and to a lesser extent Looper. His style of "subversive" film-making and writing isn't suited for franchise films that need to follow a formula.

Because the prequels were following that formula? I don't get this idea that TLJ was so off from the formula, it subverted things but largely followed the formula while doing so, it was a combination of the familiar and the new all at once.

 

[dionysus]

I think the prequels are dogshit and TLJ was dogshit too but for different reasons.

What does that make me?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I think the prequels are dogshit and TLJ was dogshit too but for different reasons.

What does that make me?

I'm describing a movement of people, others are, too to justify their feelings "many agree with us" and such. It doesn't really matter if a few people don't fit the mold.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I'm not an expert on Disney Trilogy but didn't Snoke and that general guy blow them up.

he kind of oversees the whole thing. it's pretty blatant.

if we are going to start making excuses for people who were there but "just doing their jobs", no I'm sorry, I don't go that far. the Nazis at Nuremberg couldn't use that excuse. if your job is killing trillions of people, you are still a horrible mass killer.

 

[Saruhashi]

Vader is worse in the sense that we know he has done terrible things.
But, of course, we don't really see much of that on-screen.

From an audience perspective I think Kylo killed a beloved character basically just because so I think there is no room for satisfying redemption.

Vader is worse from a lore perspective. Kylo is probably worse from audience POV. Kylo should not be redeemable at this point.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Kylo is presented as confused, conflicted and troubled in both movies, he is not clear in his beliefs or actions

none of this matters. actions are all that matters. if you murder someone, it doesn't matter if you did it for no reason, or did it because you thought it was going to bring world piece, it doesn't erase what you did.

he is a mass murderer who has momentary second thoughts after helping kill trillions. no doubt Hitler stubbed his toe somedays. doesn't excuse his actions. intent does not excuse actions.

if Vader could be redeemed, a person who committed far more terrible things than Kylo

yeah but bolded is where i fundamentally disagree. given the 8 films, none of that is onscreen. we see the opposite.

 

[ellias]

Rian isn't wrong here. Vader did far worse shit than Kylo ever did.

he kind of oversees the whole thing. it's pretty blatant.

if we are going to start making excuses for people who were there but "just doing their jobs", no I'm sorry, I don't go that far. the Nazis at Nuremberg couldn't use that excuse. if your job is killing trillions of people, you are still a horrible mass killer.

I don't remember him giving the order to fire. Or pushing the button. He's not responsible anymore than the janitor cleaning the bathroom or the electrician fixing the door that sticks.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I don't remember him giving the order to fire. Or pushing the button. He's not responsible anymore than the janitor cleaning the bathroom or the electrician fixing the door that sticks.

well by those bullshit metrics Vader never had anything to do with the Death Star, or any of the oppression of the Empire, since he wasn't physically there. Hitler didn't personally kill millions of Jews by himself alone either. still a bad guy. still blood on his hands.

the whole point of taking leadership is taking responsibility. from the first scene in TFA Ren is shown as a leader for the FO. then we have Kylo Ren killing Snoke and proclaiming himself the New Supreme Leader. you can't have both that and "He has nothing to do with any of this!" sorry. if you assume command, you assume responsibility. it doesn't matter if you are at heart a coward or not.

 

[*Nightwing]

Rian is a great film maker, check out Brick and Looper if you haven't done so.

I hate Looper for the same reasons I hate TLJ, it's full of plot holes and inconsistencies and amounts to a bunch of visually impressive cool scenes thrown together ignoring established filmmaking principals that exists to present a clear and coherant storytelling. And filmaking rules can be broken right like Kubrick purposefully moving items in scenes to make the viewer uncomfortable due to the inconsistencies. Rian Johnson is just a poor filmmaker (a talented visually impressive filmaker, but poor in all the rest aspects of filmaking) amounting to creating the visual equivalent of dangling keys in front of a baby to entertain with flash and noise instead of substance. I'm not going to give brick a chance.

Back to the topic, Kylo probably will do something redeemable in IX but has yet to do any single thing of redeeming value to his character. Vader does, and of course right now it isn't an equal comparison since the final film for Kylo hasn't come out but comparing what we have, one character has a redeemable end and the other does not yet. So at the very least RJ is clearly talking out of his ass ignoring reality and substituting his emotions in the place of factual evidence.