#Phonepunk#
Banned
Rian Johnson "Are you kidding ? Vader is worse than Kylo, Kylo is redeemable"
Do you agree with this statement? What is your opinion on the possible redemption of Kylo Ren?
Personally, I strongly disagree.
This is the evidence as far I can see.
Darth Vader
The prequels portray first (1) a very innocent and hate-free child and (2) a conflicting child becoming a man, and losing the only thing that ever truly mattered, his family. AOTC had an act of vengeance, morally shady, yet IMO entirely justified. ROTS begins his true reign of terror, and he is personally responsible for killing a number of Jedi, including younglings, but that's about it. He never uses a superweapon until ANH, where the Death Star blows up 1 planet, Alderaan.
ESB, though it portrays a competent and threatening Empire, only ever shows up killing random Rebel redshirts at Hoth. Lando and his city under siege make it out okay, and Luke & Han even make it out alive. As Vader gazes out the window at the end of ESB, force cuts showing us Luke and Vader thinking of one another across the stars drive home the impact of his traumatic confrontation with his son. IMO here is when he starts to turn.
ROTJ has another Death Star but it is never fired. the Empire only ever takes out some Rebels and Ewoks in the end battle, and they lose in the end. Vader's reign of terror sort of ends at Bespin. When he killed the Emperor, sacrificing his own life for the potential lives of trillions, he saved the galaxy (until this fanfic came along), he gave his life for the lives of others. This is selflessness. This is the act of a hero. It doesn't wipe away the blood on his hands, but it is a gift of hope and peace to the future.
Kylo Ren
Right away in TFA he is shown massacring a village. It is unclear if these are rebels, because you remember that Vader was introduced on a ship full of rebels fighting in a war. Here this could be a village of largely civilians, and they are being exterminated with flamethrowers. Vader was more or less only ever killing Jedi Knights, Jedi in training, or Rebels. we never really saw the Empire just bomb a random town. yet we see that happen again later, when they blow up Maz Kanata's castle. the Resistance is supposed to be a secret thing, with dumb decoder rings, so what we are witnessing over and over in the ST is the destruction of largely civilian settlements. Then the Starkiller Base happens, and he personally oversees the destruction of the Hosnian system, which is a total of 5 planets.
That is already 4 planets more than Darth Vader. Before the end of TFA Kylo Ren has personally slaughtered masses of civilians and overseen the destruction of 5 times the planets Darth Vader did in the PT and OT. On top of that, there is Han Solo, there is Luke Skywalker, but personally, I don't give famous people more weight in the moral stakes. "Vader killed younglings" yet Kylo's turning night apparently involved him killing a bunch of Jedi trainees at Luke's new temple. Kylo in TLJ has assumed command, he has assumed responsibility, by killing Snoke, and the entire time they are killing all of the Resistance. But no matter what, killing 5 planets is killing trillions and trillions of lives. This is intergalactic genocide on a ridiculous scale. In one film he does 5 times the destruction Anakin did across 6 films.
As far as his relationships go, he doesn't have any that aren't violent or toxic and manipulative, he killed his father, he hasn't spoken to his mother in 2 films now (despite them being on the same planet staring at each other WHAT THE FUCK RIAN), he is a purely selfish person, and he is played by a good enough actor that can convince millions of people that his self pitying routine is deep and complex. IMO Kylo is a whiny Affluenza super Hitler who deserves a coward's death.
Do you agree with this statement? What is your opinion on the possible redemption of Kylo Ren?
Personally, I strongly disagree.
This is the evidence as far I can see.
Darth Vader
The prequels portray first (1) a very innocent and hate-free child and (2) a conflicting child becoming a man, and losing the only thing that ever truly mattered, his family. AOTC had an act of vengeance, morally shady, yet IMO entirely justified. ROTS begins his true reign of terror, and he is personally responsible for killing a number of Jedi, including younglings, but that's about it. He never uses a superweapon until ANH, where the Death Star blows up 1 planet, Alderaan.
ESB, though it portrays a competent and threatening Empire, only ever shows up killing random Rebel redshirts at Hoth. Lando and his city under siege make it out okay, and Luke & Han even make it out alive. As Vader gazes out the window at the end of ESB, force cuts showing us Luke and Vader thinking of one another across the stars drive home the impact of his traumatic confrontation with his son. IMO here is when he starts to turn.
ROTJ has another Death Star but it is never fired. the Empire only ever takes out some Rebels and Ewoks in the end battle, and they lose in the end. Vader's reign of terror sort of ends at Bespin. When he killed the Emperor, sacrificing his own life for the potential lives of trillions, he saved the galaxy (until this fanfic came along), he gave his life for the lives of others. This is selflessness. This is the act of a hero. It doesn't wipe away the blood on his hands, but it is a gift of hope and peace to the future.
Kylo Ren
Right away in TFA he is shown massacring a village. It is unclear if these are rebels, because you remember that Vader was introduced on a ship full of rebels fighting in a war. Here this could be a village of largely civilians, and they are being exterminated with flamethrowers. Vader was more or less only ever killing Jedi Knights, Jedi in training, or Rebels. we never really saw the Empire just bomb a random town. yet we see that happen again later, when they blow up Maz Kanata's castle. the Resistance is supposed to be a secret thing, with dumb decoder rings, so what we are witnessing over and over in the ST is the destruction of largely civilian settlements. Then the Starkiller Base happens, and he personally oversees the destruction of the Hosnian system, which is a total of 5 planets.
That is already 4 planets more than Darth Vader. Before the end of TFA Kylo Ren has personally slaughtered masses of civilians and overseen the destruction of 5 times the planets Darth Vader did in the PT and OT. On top of that, there is Han Solo, there is Luke Skywalker, but personally, I don't give famous people more weight in the moral stakes. "Vader killed younglings" yet Kylo's turning night apparently involved him killing a bunch of Jedi trainees at Luke's new temple. Kylo in TLJ has assumed command, he has assumed responsibility, by killing Snoke, and the entire time they are killing all of the Resistance. But no matter what, killing 5 planets is killing trillions and trillions of lives. This is intergalactic genocide on a ridiculous scale. In one film he does 5 times the destruction Anakin did across 6 films.
As far as his relationships go, he doesn't have any that aren't violent or toxic and manipulative, he killed his father, he hasn't spoken to his mother in 2 films now (despite them being on the same planet staring at each other WHAT THE FUCK RIAN), he is a purely selfish person, and he is played by a good enough actor that can convince millions of people that his self pitying routine is deep and complex. IMO Kylo is a whiny Affluenza super Hitler who deserves a coward's death.
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