• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

YouTube - Announces Support For 4K Video Resolution

Status
Not open for further replies.

chumps

Member
StuBurns said:
Such limited thinking. Considering there have been basically no films shot at higher framerates, to already write the concept off is very strange. The limited material done at higher framerates, such as IMAX HD (only 48fps) things, have been very well received.

There is some Avatar footage done at 60fps, not been released yet, but I would not be surprised to see it on a bluray special edition at some point, and I don't doubt it is breathtaking. Cameron's complaints about motion artifacting and strobbing are completely correct. Of course you could just not have quick pans or falling debris, play within the limits of the 24fps, or we could just bin that shit and move on.

First of all, Cameron's a guy that has recently cared more about techy things more than actual filmmaking. 3d is not a serious filmmaker's tool. Avatar was terrible for everything but its effects etc etc.

While films have not been projected at higher frame rates, you can already have a sense of what it looks like from movies shot digitally with motion smoothing. Miami Vice and Public Enemy come to mind. I guess Michael Mann's really into that 'look'. I personally think it's terrible. Sometimes you see it in mixed footage situations for regular films and it's always a dead giveaway.

High framerate makes sense in certain situations like sports.
 

Medalion

Banned
I ran that 4k resolution video in its "original resolution", runs fine when I run it in the small window that youtube has but when I expand it, there is some choppiness...

I just realized this isn't the first time I've come across a higher than 1080p video on youtube, I saw a video posted once that had "original" in the resolutions above 1080p... I didn't notice a huge difference honestly...
 

vazel

Banned
This means nothing considering it's going to be bitstarved on Youtube. Not only that but most people are going to be watching it on their smaller PC monitors. 1080p video is already good at 60''+ no matter how close you sit. Higher resolutions will only be necessary when we're using wall displays.
 

Chris R

Member
Can't wait to spend a few days buffeting in 5 minuets of video. Fucking work on your codecs and servers before adding this stuff :lol
 

jmdajr

Member
StuBurns said:
35mm doesn't have any where near 8K worth of data. You might get significant benefit from some 65mm stuff like 2001, but for the most part, it's pointless.

4k is enough since you only see the image for splits of a second, yeah
 

chumps

Member
curls said:
Unless you plan to gaze at your TV right up close like you do when looking at an oil painting then no. It's pointless for a TV viewed from a couch.

It's hardly pointless. A higher resolution allows for larger screens and/or closer view without blurriness.

Consider the iPhone, it's screen at 960x480 is already roughly equivalent to 1k. Everyone agrees its awesome.

A bigger but still smallish screen like the iPad @ retina display resolutions (300ppi) would need 2300x1700 pixels or 2.3k.

A 15" monitor at 300ppi would require a staggering resolution of 3900x2400 or just under 4k resolution.

Of course PPI is useless metric for larger screens that require more than a foots length viewing distance, but in terms of viewing angles we're basically talking about the same thing.
 

Erebus

Member
I don't see any 4k resolution option in those videos you guys linked except if "original" is supposed to be the 4k resolution. If that's the case, then the videos run fine on my PC but look pixelated.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
chumps said:
It's hardly pointless. A higher resolution allows for larger screens and/or closer view without blurriness.

Consider the iPhone, it's screen at 960x480 is already roughly equivalent to 1k. Everyone agrees its awesome.

A bigger but still smallish screen like the iPad @ retina display resolutions (300ppi) would need 2300x1700 pixels or 2.3k.

A 15" monitor at 300ppi would require a staggering resolution of 3900x2400 or just under 4k resolution.

Of course PPI is useless metric for larger screens that require more than a foots length viewing distance, but in terms of viewing angles we're basically talking about the same thing.

I'm not talking about monitors (for which btw I am all for as I do work at a minimum resolution of 300dpi anyway) I was talking about a 30-40 inch TV for which you have to account for the resolving distance. A 40inch TV at 300ppi will look the same at a TV with 100ppi when viewed at from a couch.
 

chumps

Member
curls said:
I'm not talking about monitors (for which btw I am all for as I do work at a minimum resolution of 300dpi anyway) I was talking about a 30-40 inch TV for which you have to account for the resolving distance. A 40inch TV at 300ppi will look the same at a TV with 100ppi when viewed at from a couch.

Well it depends how close that couch is to the TV :). Televisions, viewing distances, etc are all highly variable. And there are certainly cases where 4k worth of resolution would be wasted, but there just as many cases where 4k would be welcome and noticeable.

I think we're so used to the relatively low pixel densities of digital displays that something like 4k seems 'outrageous', when really, it's not. In digital camera terms, 4k is only 12 megapixels. Significant, but nothing crazy really.
 

curls

Wake up Sheeple, your boring insistence that Obama is not a lizardman from Atlantis is wearing on my patience 💤
Tobor said:
Why would youtube waste time and money on a resolution made for 25ft screens?

Apparently people want to look at their tv's like they look at oil paintings.
 

StuBurns

Banned
chumps said:
First of all, Cameron's a guy that has recently cared more about techy things more than actual filmmaking. 3d is not a serious filmmaker's tool. Avatar was terrible for everything but its effects etc etc.

While films have not been projected at higher frame rates, you can already have a sense of what it looks like from movies shot digitally with motion smoothing. Miami Vice and Public Enemy come to mind. I guess Michael Mann's really into that 'look'. I personally think it's terrible. Sometimes you see it in mixed footage situations for regular films and it's always a dead giveaway.

High framerate makes sense in certain situations like sports.
Regardless of what you think of Cameron's film making, he is the most successful film maker in the world. You might not like Avatar, but clearly many people do. He is competing with himself at this point.

As for 3D not being a serious filmmaker's tool, if Cameron isn't a serious filmmaker, I don't know who is. He isn't the best by any stretch, but he is the biggest.

Motion smoothing is nothing like higher framerates, this is gaming message board, most people here are well aware of what 30fps with blur looks like compared to 60fps, it's laughable.

Higher framerates make sense in all situations. It is superior for image quality, and that is what is most important.

Right now there is basically nothing to show what this will be like, but it is going to happen, the sequel to the biggest film ever alone will force the market to support higher framerates, it's happening, and people will moan and claim it's pointless and shit like 3D, and it will be a step forward, just like 3D is, just like stereo, just like surround sound, and just like colour.
 

sangreal

Member
chumps said:
Which 4k screen did you watch it on?

Are you under the impression that you need a 4k screen to watch a 4k video? I can see the shitty quality just fine without fitting the entire image on my screen. Even downscaled to 1920x1200 it looks bad
 

-viper-

Banned
jett said:
:lol What for when their 720p and 1080p video quality is total trash? How about you work on your codecs first, youtube.
Exactly. 720p or even 1080p looks like AWFUL shit on Youtube.

This seems to be the most pointless move by YT ever.
 
57.jpg

imo
if you know what i mean.
 

x3sphere

Member
YouTube can barely handle seamless buffering of 480p videos, how the hell will they stream resolutions higher than 1080p?
 

chumps

Member
StuBurns said:
Right now there is basically nothing to show what this will be like, but it is going to happen, the sequel to the biggest film ever alone will force the market to support higher framerates, it's happening, and people will moan and claim it's pointless and shit like 3D, and it will be a step forward, just like 3D is, just like stereo, just like surround sound, and just like colour.

Go to reduser.net and see how many professional filmmakers are clamoring for 48p or 60p video. What they are clamoring for: Higher resolution, better image quality, increased dynamic, modularity, and higher burst framerates for slow motion.

60p is a James Cameron thing. 3d makes more sense than 60p :).
 

Jex

Member
Support for features no-one needs or has access to. Excellent.

It's a bullet point on some corporate list, and little else.
 

StuBurns

Banned
chumps said:
Go to reduser.net and see how many professional filmmakers are clamoring for 48p or 60p video. What they are clamoring for: Higher resolution, better image quality, increased dynamic, modularity, and higher burst framerates for slow motion.

60p is a James Cameron thing. 3d makes more sense than 60p :).
Many professional filmmakers have no chance of producing higher framerate films because they couldn't get them to market. I'm sure I couldn't find them wishing for flying cars either, doesn't mean they won't have them the second they can.

I hope we are both still on GAF in ten years, we can revisit this when 60fps films are everywhere.
 

chumps

Member
StuBurns said:
Many professional filmmakers have no chance of producing higher framerate films because they couldn't get them to market. I'm sure I couldn't find them wishing for flying cars either, doesn't mean they won't have them the second they can.

I hope we are both still on GAF in ten years, we can revisit this when 60fps films are everywhere.

Stu there are plenty of 60p (or at least 60i) capable cameras and have been for a while. Soap operas, sitcoms, news, etc. What do film makers do however? Switch it to 24p. There was a huge cry for 24p with the 5d mkii (it only had 30p) and Canon finally buckled and enabled 24p in updated firmware for a very good reason. This is coming from the filmmaking side, not the gaming side, not the tech-oriented more frames the better side. Visually, it's what filmmakers want. Personally I've shot documentaries at 30p and don't mind the look. Now that my 5d can shoot at 24p that's certainly an option. 60p, however, is not.
 

StuBurns

Banned
chumps said:
Stu there are plenty of 60p (or at least 60i) capable cameras and have been for a while. Soap operas, sitcoms, news, etc. What do film makers do however? Switch it to 24p. There was a huge cry for 24p with the 5d mkii (it only had 30p) and Canon finally buckled and enabled 24p in updated firmware for a very good reason. This is coming from the filmmaking side, not the gaming side, not the tech-oriented more frames the better side. Visually, it's what filmmakers want. Personally I've shot documentaries at 30p and don't mind the look. Now that my 5d can shoot at 24p that's certainly an option. 60p, however, is not.
Film standards are 24fps. There are cameras that support it, but not really release formats.

If you think I'm wrong, great, we shall see when Avatar 2 is 48 or 60fps and is the next biggest movie of all time, and many filmmakers follow suit. Probably including you.
 

LCfiner

Member
Tobor said:
Why would youtube waste time and money on a resolution made for 25ft screens?


cuz they got Google money to throw around.

this really does seem like another example of doing something because they can and not caring if they should.
 

Bananakin

Member
sangreal said:
Are you under the impression that you need a 4k screen to watch a 4k video? I can see the shitty quality just fine without fitting the entire image on my screen. Even downscaled to 1920x1200 it looks bad

Wait, so is youtube cropping the video, or downscaling it?
 

sangreal

Member
Bananakin said:
Wait, so is youtube cropping the video, or downscaling it?

In full screen mode its downscaled to whatever resolution your desktop is. In pop out mode you can view it in its native resolution since its based on the window size.
 

jett

D-Member
StuBurns said:
60, lets not half arse this. Straight to the good shit.

24x2 = 48. It's what digital cinemas support.


SimleuqiR said:
Will this make it look like a TV sitcom?

Hell no. A proper high framerate 3D movie will make your eyes melt.
 

StuBurns

Banned
jett said:
24x2 = 48. It's what digital cinemas support.




Hell no. A proper high framerate 3D movie will make your eyes melt.
Well Cameron seems undecided, he talked about it at D8, and his high framerate tests for Avatar were at 60.

Most projectors support 144Hz, 60 is not a major issue. He seems very confident he could put it out at either. It might just come down to rendering costs, who knows.
 
4k YouTube is cool, but they really do need to sort out their codecs and bitrates to make it actually worthwhile. Almost everything is shot between 4/3/2k nowadays, and any movie shot on film can produce gorgeous 4k scans.

About 24 vs 48/60, I also think it's only a matter of time. There's no way 60 will become a de-facto standard, but as our capture and display tech moves forward, it'll start to be an option if content creators want the "feel" it gives. The future is one of choice: just like you choose lenses and aspect ratios and capture methods now, projection speed, depth and resolution will also get thrown into the mix.

Okin said:
I actually color-graded and helped finish a project shot for youtube to demonstrate the 4k feature. I don't know if it's enabled yet, but you can check out the video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BQmjYlsV6A
Really beautiful grade man, it looks fantastic! What did you color on, and was this shot with available light?

curls said:
Apparently people want to look at their tv's like they look at oil paintings.
Have you ever watched a vhs tape projected through HD upscaling? It's fucking incredible, it literally looks like an oil painting come to life. :D
 

Mr_Brit

Banned
StuBurns said:
Well Cameron seems undecided, he talked about it at D8, and his high framerate tests for Avatar were at 60.

Most projectors support 144Hz, 60 is not a major issue. He seems very confident he could put it out at either. It might just come down to rendering costs, who knows.

For the future of good film viewing, I really hope that you end up being wrong.
 

Medalion

Banned
It's not the resolution, give us a better bit-rate for your current formats, stop wasting your time with resolutions that no average user can really take advantage of
 

jett

D-Member
StuBurns said:
Well Cameron seems undecided, he talked about it at D8, and his high framerate tests for Avatar were at 60.

Most projectors support 144Hz, 60 is not a major issue. He seems very confident he could put it out at either. It might just come down to rendering costs, who knows.

http://www.dcimovies.com/DCIDigitalCinemaSystemSpecv1_2.pdf

The DCI specification for digital cinema calls for either 24 or 48fps. You're confusing the actual framerate of the movie with the amount of times a 3D projector repeats the frame during 3D projection.

You will not see Avatar 2(or whatever) higher than 48fps delivered to cinemas, if Cameron shoots beyond 24fps at all.
 

StuBurns

Banned
jett said:
http://www.dcimovies.com/DCIDigitalCinemaSystemSpecv1_2.pdf

The DCI specification for digital cinema calls for either 24 or 48fps. You're confusing the actual framerate of the movie with the amount of times a 3D projector repeats the frame during 3D projection.

You will not see Avatar 2(or whatever) higher than 48fps delivered to cinemas, if Cameron shoots beyond 24fps at all.
No, I'm not confusing them. Cameron said projectors will need altering to support 60, but they can physically already do it, they just need modding, which is relatively cheap.
 

Mr_Brit

Banned
StuBurns said:
Out of interest, which 60Hz movies have you seen?

Soaps, news, home videos etc. Might not be movies but you can still see the desired effect.

Also check out the motion interpolation modes on new HDTVs. Look at any decent AV forum and you'll see that that is the first thing noobs are told to turn off as it completely ruins the experience by making everything look like a soap and I think I'll take the advice of thousands of AV freaks who spend hundreds calibrating their sets over some Gaffer.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Mr_Brit said:
Soaps, news etc. Might not be movies but you can still see the desired effect.

Also check out the motion interpolation modes on new HDTVs. Look at any decent AV forum and you'll see that that is the first thing noobs are told to turn off as it completely ruins the experience by making everything look like a soap and I think I'll take the advice of thousands of AV freaks who spend hundreds calibrating their sets over some Gaffer.
What soap has ever been shown in 60fps? And what soap at 24fps looks any where near as good as a film? And motion interpolation is not a higher framerate. It's like saying I've seen QuadHD because I've seen SD upscaled that high. It is not the same. You have not seen a film in 60fps, you just haven't, and to say something you haven't experienced would ruin the film watching experience is unbelievably arrogant.

I'm not saying it would be good, it would 'fix' certain issues with 24fps artifacting, but people saying it won't be good do not know that for a fact.
 

chumps

Member
Mr_Brit said:
Also check out the motion interpolation modes on new HDTVs. Look at any decent AV forum and you'll see that that is the first thing noobs are told to turn off as it completely ruins the experience by making everything look like a soap and I think I'll take the advice of thousands of AV freaks who spend hundreds calibrating their sets over some Gaffer.

B-b-b-ut... JAMES CAMERON.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom