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Zuck in court: Vetted Oculus over wknd, Actual cost $3b, Investigating Carmack claims

What I'm most curious about is this part:

noting that some of the things that Oculus told Facebook "were simply not true."

So curious what that's in reference to.

Just an opinion. Try not to overreact.

It would be difficult for anyone to say that Facebook has achieved any kind of reasonable return on that 3 billion so far, especially with this lawsuit going the way it is.

Rift has been selling pretty much in line with their expectations as far as we can tell. It's a long term investment. They're not planning on making that $2-$3 billion back any time soon.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Also, we knew about the weekend deal almost as it was going down.

I think its also interesting we are now hearing a bit more of the internal things that happened at Valve with Oculus from Ben Krasnow - following an article on Oculus "destroying evidence"

It fits a pattern. I was a hardware engineer at Valve during the early VR days, working mostly on Lighthouse and the internal dev headset. There were a few employees who insisted that the Valve VR group give away both hardware and software to Oculus with the hope that they would work together with Valve on VR. The tech was literally given away -- no contract, no license. After the facebook acquisition, these folks presumably received large financial incentives to join facebook, which they did. It was the most questionable thing I've seen in my whole career, and was partially caused by Valve's flat management structure and general lack of oversight. I left shortly after.

Overall, I think Valve is a good place to work, and I learned a lot from all of the incredibly smart people there. The main reason that I left was the difficulty in merging hardware development with the company's exceptionally successful business model. The hardware team was pressured to give away lots of IP that could have been licensed, with the explanation that hardware is just so worthless anyway compared to online software sales, there was no other choice. It's possible that this was a good faith gamble, however it still doesn't preclude the use of business contracts that would have protected our investment. It also isn't so great for morale to hear everyday that your years of work are going to be given away to another company, and then watch that company get acquired for $2B. This is especially the case since many employees strongly voiced concerns about just such a scenario.
Growth at Valve is a little funny. It's like an oil-rich nation. Gaining more citizens is not really desirable since the wealth will just get spread more thinly, and there is no way that new employees will be able to make more money than Steam already does with a very limited number of employees. I know the company is trying new things, and making honest investments in new areas, but it's hard to shake the bottom line.
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
That Lorne Lanning interview was excellent
I find myself re-watching it every time someone links it here. Must've seen it at least 4 times by now lol. It really is an excellent interview and wish he'd do more of them.
If you guys haven't seen it by now, definitely give it a watch.
 

Teeth

Member
Welcome to the games industry where every major player is out to fuck you as hard as they can.

I think when I worked at Sega they technically owned ideas I had when I was at home, if they related to games in any way.

This is like...pretty much any tech company I've heard of. When I worked for a hardware engineering firm, a stipulation of employment was that any patent or marketable technology/product that an employee came up with on their own time would be owned by the company (and they would give you a $1000 bonus hahahahah).


I personally wouldn't put Bethesda and VR in the same sentence for a looong time. I have literally zero confidence in them in the VR space if their previous games are anything to go by. They just don't know how to make technically sound games, which is the bare minimum when developing for VR.

Bethesda already has Fallout 4 VR demoing at shows I believe.
 

rambis

Banned
In hindsight this deal looks like a pretty big disaster, regardless of the amount paid.

In addition to all the legal issues they've inherited, they face extremely tough competition from Valve.

From a hardware side, the Vive is at least as good as the Oculus (if not better). From a storefront side, Valve has a big advantage in Steam because of its massive userbase. From a software side, Valve also has the upper hand because their inhouse team of developers have consistently proven themselves to be world class at making games.

Oculus have also lost a lot of goodwill from developers and users, who dislike both their attempts at paying for Oculus-exclusive games, and Palmer Luckey's horrible politics.

Oculus aren't down and out yet, but increasingly it's looking like Facebook made a $3 billion blunder.
I thought the previously reported price was too much then. I had no idea about all the crazy developments that would come but I certainly didnt think VR was worth that kinda investment so early. Which such a small market you're basically just paying for everyone else's R&D while it slowly becomes more accessible.
 
I do find it odd that John (an industry veteran) didn't do his due diligence and separate his outside work with his real work at the time. I really find it really hard to believe.
 
Interesting. Has anyone here tried either demo and can you share anything regarding performance with us? Or are these very early behind closed door demos?

Early behind closed doors stuff, but they were both playable to press whenever they've showed them. They're committed to Fallout 4 VR being a thing and are even saying it's coming to Scorpio (supposedly this year). Doom VR (which is basically the recent Doom translated to VR) was more of a tech demo originally, but then they apparently showed an updated version at a later date and it was starting to look like a thing that they might actually release, though they've never committed to that.
 

Wereroku

Member
Hate to break it to you, but most of the professionals I know are more interested in AR than VR for serious uses.

Granted that's anecdotal and one of those professionals was pretty transparently shilling for Hololens, but when you consider things AR is far more practical for the professional working environment.

See it's the opposite with me. The only mention of either of these technologies was with Telemedicine. Long distance diagnosis and surgery could definitely use VR more then AR but the issues of the right kind of devices and software is what our MD's always talk about.

I do find it odd that John (an industry veteran) didn't do his due diligence and separate his outside work with his real work at the time. I really find it really hard to believe.

We know he was given a lot of leeway at Id so it maybe that he didn't consider the work he was doing to be on company time. This could basically become a giant contract dispute case really testing the limits of what these companies can claim to own. I mean think about it what if he did this work at lunch was he really on the clock then? I don't know if this has really been tested thoroughly before.
 
I do find it odd that John (an industry veteran) didn't do his due diligence and separate his outside work with his real work at the time. I really find it really hard to believe.

I wouldn't be surprised. Geniuses in their respective industries often do not have what we would consider basic common sense, because they are thinking and focusing on much higher level things. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he wasn't thinking about things like legal ramifications. It's kind of the natural egotism that comes with being extremely proficient at what you do.
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
Early behind closed doors stuff, but they were both playable to press whenever they've showed them. They're committed to Fallout 4 VR being a thing and are even saying it's coming to Scorpio (supposedly this year). Doom VR (which is basically the recent Doom translated to VR) was more of a tech demo originally, but then they apparently showed an updated version at a later date and it was starting to look like a thing that they might actually release, though they've never committed to that.
Oh? This is quite interesting.
I still personally have no faith in them in the VR space until I try them for myself though lol. But am glad they are dipping their toes in these virtual waters.
 

Slayven

Member
Vetting over a weekend shows. One of the top people is a white nationalist, and the other is getting busted by Vice.
 
We know he was given a lot of leeway at Id so it maybe that he didn't consider the work he was doing to be on company time. This could basically become a giant contract dispute case really testing the limits of what these companies can claim to own. I mean think about it what if he did this work at lunch was he really on the clock then?

If Carmack used ZeniMax-owned equipment to do development for personal projects, then that code becomes the property of ZeniMax whether or not he was "on the clock" at the time. This is standard stuff at tech companies.
 

Wereroku

Member
If Carmack used ZeniMax-owned equipment to do development for personal projects, then that code becomes the property of ZeniMax whether or not he was "on the clock" at the time. This is standard stuff at tech companies.
Yes but how much has that been legally tested? Employment contracts are often challenged because of overreach. Just because they put it in the contract didn't mean it's legal.
 
Looks to me like Facebook got more than what they bargained for with Mr Carnack and Luckey, and will cost them even more than the 3 billion.
 
Yes but how much has that been legally tested? Employment contracts are often challenged because of overreach. Just because they put it in the contract didn't mean it's legal.

I'm not a lawyer and don't have access to case law, but I found this article: http://www.arma.org/bookstore/files/Montana2.pdf
A long line of decided cases (e.g., TGB Insurance Services Corp. v. Zieminski) makes clear that, in the absence of other factors, anything on an employer-owned computer system located on employer premises is properly the property of the employer and that the employer has a right of access at any time.

But I guess we'll see what the judge thinks, assuming ZeniMax's allegations are even accurate.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Wow. Not sure how much "legal diligence" you can accomplish in 72 hours.

It clearly wasn't enough time to learn that the kid behind Oculus worshiped at the altar of The Donald.

Woof. There might be more artless attempts to turn a thread political but I'm not aware of them. At the very least you could at least make sure the timeline is correct.
 

BigDes

Member
They actually paid 300 million extra for hitting key milestones?

Zenimax must be laughing their heads off at that one.

You have to keep moving the goal posts till you can bankrupt and then buy out the company for cheap guys, come on.
 
What I'm most curious about is this part:

So curious what that's in reference to.

Rift has been selling pretty much in line with their expectations as far as we can tell. It's a long term investment. They're not planning on making that $2-$3 billion back any time soon.

More like never. I'll be surprised if it makes even a billion.

Zucks was probably high on coke when he made the decision. Ego got to his head or something.
 

Narroo

Member
Mark Zuckerberg does not strike me as a particularly savvy businessman.

Nope. Just a college student with the right skill set and idea and the right time. People assume that if you have a breakout success and make billions that you have to be a genius or savvy business man. Some people just get lucky, especially in the age of the internet and software downloads.
 
He bought whatsapp and Instagram before this.

Instagram was a bargain at 1 billion now.

I don't think they've suceed in monetising it (instagram) at all. I hardly ever see ads. I know I see a lot of people paying for bots which of course, FB/Instagram isn't involved in.
 

Machina

Banned
So what can potentially come of this? What's likely to come of it?

Lawsuits, everywhere, and possibly the demise of Oculus. What a paradigm shift that whole saga has taken in recent years. It fucking makes me angry because it tarnishes the image of VR before it can even truly get started and once again, it's all about greed and sociopathy.
 

~Cross~

Member
Its incredibly how Palmer was able to get Occulus bought by facebook on big ideas and the good will of an entire industry trying to get a dream done. He fucking swindled everyone involved.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Lawsuits, everywhere, and possibly the demise of Oculus. What a paradigm shift that whole saga has taken in recent years. It fucking makes me angry because it tarnishes the image of VR before it can even truly get started and once again, it's all about greed and sociopathy.

Even if Oculus were to fall I don't think VR as tech would be lost, Sony & Valve would keep at it and as far we know they are well above board with their practices.
 
Yeah that Lanning interview was good.

Eitherway, at this point I'd love to see Oculus go away or get have their tech taken away sending them completely back to the drawing board.

Why would you want that (other than for some sense of "justice/vengeance")? What good would that accomplish for the industry?
 
Its incredibly how Palmer was able to get Occulus bought by facebook on big ideas and the good will of an entire industry trying to get a dream done. He fucking swindled everyone involved.

It really is amazing how he went from being tech messiah prodigy to showing his true colours as a Howard Hughes wannabe lying dickhead.
 

Durante

Member
Why would you want that (other than for some sense of "justice/vengeance")? What good would that accomplish for the industry?
Well, for one, it would cement OpenVR as the PC platform for VR, which would be a good thing all around.

Of course, if Oculus is serious about contributing to and supporting the Khronos standard, then I'd rather they stay around, in order to provide an even stronger united front against any MS attempts at taking over the platform. (Though those seem to be absolutely no threat so far)
 
Well, for one, it would cement OpenVR as the PC platform for VR, which would be a good thing all around.

Of course, if Oculus is serious about contributing to and supporting the Khronos standard, then I'd rather they stay around, in order to provide an even stronger united front against any MS attempts at taking over the platform. (Though those seem to be absolutely no threat so far)

Does Valve/Vive support OpenVR?
 

onken

Member
Sometimes you just have to make that leap and you don't have the time and intel that you'd like. Just the way the world of investment works, except x100000 that of the average :s

My bad guys, read the number wrong, wasn't trying to make some "own"

At least you got first post, congrats.
 
This interview with lorne lanning is what gave me that idea.

Obviously not every VR company is a fraud, but it seems to be a problem.

https://youtu.be/AcqKAKpuyjw?t=1425

Thanks for posting this. I just listened to it on the way into the office. Lorne is absolutely fascinating to listen to. I think he gets a bit into the weeds about stuff he probably isn't entirely sure of (how does he know if Jason Rubin's dad is a good attorney or not?), but overall he's extremely intelligent and provides insight and ideas to think about, if nothing else.

Really liked when he was on GB e3 a while back too. Overall seems like a really good, sharp dude.
 
Due diligence for a $3b deal in 2 days. He probably got a paper confirming that the company actually exists, is in fact incorporated, has an HQ and reported financials last year. Really a rookie mistake that could end up costing a lot if Carmack has an actual claim.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
So basically Valve invented all the lighthouse motion tracking stuff (which is really the magic behind VR imo), and some managers at valve convinced everyone to give the tech to occulus, and then got millions in bribes after Facebook bought them? Holy shit. Valve should join Zenimax in suing these scum.

Although I do feel bad for Carmack. He is going to take the fall for this. I fucking hate that these contracts exist that force someone to give away all of their ideas to whatever company is paying their healthcare.
 
Thanks for posting this. I just listened to it on the way into the office. Lorne is absolutely fascinating to listen to. I think he gets a bit into the weeds about stuff he probably isn't entirely sure of (how does he know if Jason Rubin's dad is a good attorney or not?), but overall he's extremely intelligent and provides insight and ideas to think about, if nothing else.

Really liked when he was on GB e3 a while back too. Overall seems like a really good, sharp dude.

17j0mbrnl8ftpjpg.jpg


I remember a time when he was universally disliked on GAF and was the butt of everyone's jokes for months/years.
 

schaft0620

Member
So Zuck spent $2b on a personal toy that he wanted and what followed was the entire tech industry pouring money into VR.

VR has a bright future.
 
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