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[Opiate]

So in an attempt to head off at the pass a topic which will surely come up again in the coming weeks, I've decided to create this year's Zwarte Piet thread. Dump all of your discussions in here.

What is Zwarte Piet, you ask? It's a traditional Christmas character in the Netherlands and Belgium who helps Sinterklaas. What makes him worthy of a topic? Here is what Zwarte Piet looks like, on the left and right:

I'm not sure any more needs to be said as to why this traditional Christmas character might be perceived in a negative way by some people.

A video featuring many celebrities was made this year, to once again bring attention to the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap68c_Gf6ZE&hd=1

 

[MMaRsu]

Hahah yeah zwarte piet ot !!! _O_

Who doesn't love this guy man.. he's a cool Piet who gives you candy! And it's all in good fun, no racist undertones these days.

That video is fucking stupid. Please go away you stupid BN'ers. I don't give a shit about what you think, it's not racist to me so please don't try to make it a racist issue. Jesus.

 

[TheOddOne]

Zwarte Pieten Stijl.

I want to punch everybody who worked on it. Sorry, I just had to say that.

 

[Opiate]

Hahah yeah zwarte piet ot !!! _O_

Who doesn't love this guy man.. he's a cool Piet who gives you candy! And it's all in good fun, no racist undertones these days.

I'm not sure anyone ever thought there were racist undertones. I think people were more concerned with the racist overtones.

 

[Dilly]

This is the thread where GAF is going to ruin my childhood again.

 

[MMaRsu]

Zwarte Pieten Stijl.

I want to punch everybody who worked on it. Sorry, I just had to say that.

rofl

I'm not sure anyone ever thought there were racist undertones. I think people were more concerned with the racist overtones.

Right that's what I meant. My bad. Either way, I certainly don't consider it racist and I hope most people don't.

 

[MNC]

Perfect thread title.

 

[The Faceless Master]

i don't see what the big deal is, we should all learn to respect or at least tolerate different cultures! not everyone thinks alike.

 

[Alx]

I'm not sure any more needs to be said as to why this traditional Christmas character might be perceived in a negative way by some people.


[/url]

I do think things need to be said, to have a better understanding of the misunderstandings.
mainly :
- SP is Santa Claus's helper. he obviously used to be meant to be African, with links to slavery (not that he would be a slave himself, but in older times, being black was a cliche for servants)
- a more politically correct interpretation was given later for children : sp wasn't African, he was black because he climbed down chimneys.
- Europe doesn't have the same stigma against "black face" as Americans, mostly because the infamous movies and shows with white people playing black people are unknown here.
- Black people used to be rare in northern Europe until after wwII. that would explain why sp. would be traditionally impersonated by white people painted black

 

[TheOddOne]

Old video, but still relevent to highlight it: Guy gets arrested for wearing "Zwarte Piet is racism" shirt.

He said to the cops: "Why shoud I leave, what have I done? I have the right to express my beliefs, no?". People around him said the cops pushed him to the ground and started beating him.

 

[Scipius]

All such threads just boil down to Americans unable to transcend the narrowly defined confines of US racial sensitivities clashing with Dutch users who cherish a children's tradition while unaware of the origins of some of its imagery. Neither side is likely to budge one way or the other, because either position is based more on emotion than reason.

 

[Danielsan]

Quickly chiming in as a Dutchie.

Sinterklaas and Zwartepiet aren't really Christmas characters. They're part of their own separate holiday.

As the years have gone by and I've spend more time on the internet, my point of view towards this divisive subject has changed somewhat. For instance, years ago I was completely oblivious to the existence of the concept "black face". While I don't believe that the current use of Zwartepiet has any racist connotations, the tradition did have its roots in racism and the imagery of Zwartepiet probably still holds a great deal of offensiveness to a lot of people.

As far as I'm concerned there is no reason to not update the "look" of Zwartepiet whilst still maintaining the rest of the traditions surrounding the festivities. There is certainly no good reason to hold on to the racist imagery other than "Well it's tradition". Afterall, the kids really don't care about the colour of their skin, they care about their funny antics, the sweets and the gifts.

 

[BowieZ]

I was offended by White Chicks, but not because of the whiteface.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

All such threads just boil down to Americans unable to transcend the narrowly defined confines of US racial sensitivities clashing with Dutch users who cherish a children's tradition while unaware of the origins of some of its imagery. Neither side is likely to budge one way or the other, because either position is based more on emotion than reason.

/thread.


In my opinion as an American, I do think it's racist in the way Danielsan pointed out (blackface has a really negative connotation here). Traditions can be changed.
But, like many things, if devoid of context they become innocent again, so really? Who knows?

 

[Desiato]

Maybe they should make their faces look just dark and dirty as if they actually went through a chimney, instead of making it look like their skin is black. Also get rid of the red lips maybe. Keeping it Zwarte Piet while pleasing the PC people.

 

[ymmv]

Quickly chiming in as a Dutchie.

Sinterklaas and Zwartepiet aren't really Christmas characters. They're part of their own separate holiday.

Yep. We don't celebrate Christmas like the rest of the western world. Dutch/Flemish kids get their gifts from Sinterklaas on December 5th. There aren't any presents and no Santa Claus during Christmas.

BTW I want to keep Sinterklaas the way it's always been. Keep your US centric PC obnoxiousness out of my childhood memories.

 

[R0nn]

All I will say is that the entire racist overtone issues never really occured to me until a couple of years ago when it suddenly turned into a serious point of discussion. Seriously, as a child I never connected Zwarte Piet's role as Sinterklaas' servant as some sort of slavery subtext. He was just this cool, frolic and helpful guy. That's all.

There aren't any presents and no Santa Claus during Christmas.

Not entirely true. I know quite a few people who either get presents both during Sinterklaas and Christmas, or during one or the other. I clearly remember my parents switched it around from getting presents during Sinterklaas to getting presents during Christmas, probably due to me and my sister growing older.

 

[Rentahamster]

Is there a historical area of racist blackface activity in the Netherlands and Belgium?

Or is the controversy due to American cultural hegemony being as widespread as it is, so that this activity can't be helped but viewed through the lens of historical American racism?

 

[HarryHengst]

Is there a historical area of racist blackface activity in the Netherlands and Belgium?

No.

Or is the controversy due to American cultural hegemony being as widespread as it is, so that this activity can't be helped but viewed through the lens of historical American racism?

Pretty much this, yes.

 

[confuziz]

Yep. We don't celebrate Christmas like the rest of the western world. Dutch/Flemish kids get their gifts from Sinterklaas on December 5th. There aren't any presents and no Santa Claus during Christmas.

BTW I want to keep Sinterklaas the way it's always been. Keep your US centric PC obnoxiousness out of my childhood memories.

??????? What the hell are you talking about. EVERYbody gets gifts on christmas here lol. I don't know anyone who doesn't celebrate it.

 

[Desiato]

All I will say is that the entire racist overtone issues never really occured to me until a couple of years ago when it suddenly turned into a serious point of discussion. Seriously, as a child I never connected Zwarte Piet's role as Sinterklaas' servant as some sort of slavery subtext. He was just this cool, frolic and helpful guy. That's all.

When I was a small kid and I saw a black person I'd think "Oh, it's a Zwarte Piet". So I did make the connection, but kind of backwards.

Oh, Belgian btw, not Dutch.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

I can't wait for all the Gaffers who are experiencing this for their first time =D

I do think things need to be said, to have a better understanding of the misunderstandings.
mainly :
- SP is Santa Claus's helper. he obviously used to be meant to be African, with links to slavery (not that he would be a slave himself, but in older times, being black was a cliche for servants)

lol! White people painting themselves because black is the color of servants, white people can't be servants after all, nuh-uh.

- a more politically correct interpretation was given later for children : sp wasn't African, he was black because he climbed down chimneys.

You heard it here first folks! Climbing down chimneys gives you thick red lips and curly hair! Oh snap!

- Black people used to be rare in northern Europe until after wwII. that would explain why sp. would be traditionally impersonated by white people painted black

LMFAO!

 

[Danielsan]

Yep. We don't celebrate Christmas like the rest of the western world. Dutch/Flemish kids get their gifts from Sinterklaas on December 5th. There aren't any presents and no Santa Claus during Christmas.

Perhaps this was the case at some point, but American culture has rubbed off more and more these past decades. I for one know a lot of families without smaller children that opt to celebrate Christmas with gifts instead of Sinterklaas, and other families may choose to celebrate both holidays with gifts. Santa Claus usually doesn't pay a huge part in the celebration of Christmas in the Netherlands as far as the origins of the gifts is concerned, but he does play a big role in the imagery surrounding Christmas.

 

[R0nn]

When I was a small kid and I saw a black person I'd think "Oh, it's a Zwarte Piet". So I did make the connection, but kind of backwards.

Oh, Belgian btw, not Dutch.

Sounds kind of harmless though, provided your interpretation of Zwarte Piet was a positive one.

 

[Alucrid]

Hahah yeah zwarte piet ot !!! _O_

Who doesn't love this guy man.. he's a cool Piet who gives you candy! And it's all in good fun, no racist undertones these days.

That video is fucking stupid. Please go away you stupid BN'ers. I don't give a shit about what you think, it's not racist to me so please don't try to make it a racist issue. Jesus.

BN'ers? Does that stand for what I think it does?

 

[itsgreen]

Ugh this yearly thread again...

*Sigh*

Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are awesome. Never had, or even know anyone, who had any negative connotations when it came to Zwarte Piet.

Also that video is stupid, I count two BN'rs, in text... Doutzen Kroes and Anouk.

Are you Dutch Opiate?

And cue American's being outraged because they view this from their culture in 3 2 1...

 

[Rentahamster]

Pretty much this, yes.

American culture is so strong, we make other cultures feel bad for our past sins

 

[Desiato]

Sounds kind of harmless though, provided your interpretation of Zwarte Piet was a positive one.

Of course. Zwarte Piet was the coolest guy ever to me. Throwing nic nacs and other candy to kids, who wouldn't look up to someone like that?

 

[itsgreen]

BN'ers? Does that stand for what I think it does?

Doubt it, it's short for "Bekende Nederlanders", or in English: "Famous Dutch (people)"

 

[soepje]

BN'ers? Does that stand for what I think it does?

Bekende Nederlanders.. Known/famous dutchies.

Edit: beaten, like a slow servant.

 

[Earthpainting]

Quickly chiming in as a Dutchie.

Sinterklaas and Zwartepiet aren't really Christmas characters. They're part of their own separate holiday.

As the years have gone by and I've spend more time on the internet, my point of view towards this divisive subject has changed somewhat. For instance, years ago I was completely oblivious to the existence of the concept "black face". While I don't believe that the current use of Zwartepiet has any racist connotations, the tradition did have its roots in racism and the imagery of Zwartepiet probably still holds a great deal of offensiveness to a lot of people.

As far as I'm concerned there is no reason to not update the "look" of Zwartepiet whilst still maintaining the rest of the traditions surrounding the festivities. There is certainly no good reason to hold on to the racist imagery other than "Well it's tradition". Afterall, the kids really don't care about the colour of their skin, they care about their funny antics, the sweets and the gifts.

This is pretty much where I stand. The biggest obstacle with updating him is that 'black' is pretty much in the name, which naturally permeates throughout the holiday's songs and merchandising. I'm sad to say that perhaps the "best" and most painless solution is to just abandon the entire holiday and fully embrace the commercial Americanised Christmas. People have started adopting this one in the last few decades anyway and its only growing more and more due to its reach in our imported media. It is essentially the same thing, except without the religious and questionably racist imagery.

 

[Trojita]

The excuse that Zwarte Piet looks bad because in retrospect because of America's past and blackface in early movie industry pervading on a world wide scale is funny because technically Europe did blackface before the USA.

"It's not racist because I grew up with it as a kid and I don't think its racist!"

So the question then becomes is Mr. Popo racist?

 

[Desiato]

The excuse that Zwarte Piet looks bad because in retrospect because of America's past and blackface in early movie industry pervading on a world wide scale is funny because technically Europe did blackface before the USA.

"It's not racist because I grew up with it as a kid and I don't think its racist!"

So the question then becomes is Mr. Popo racist?

Not anymore!

 

[Trojita]

Not anymore!

 

[soepje]

"Kleuren Piet, wiede wiede wiet
Ik hoor je wel, maar ik zie je niet"

"Wees maar gerust mijn kind.
Ik ben een goede vrind.
Want al heb ik je nooit ontmoet,
'k Meen het toch goed."

lalala

 

[Alx]

lol! White people painting themselves because black is the color of servants, white people can't be servants after all, nuh-uh. !

like I said, it's a cliche, and it added a touch of exotism that cannot be perceived any more. why does santa live in the north pole and work with elves ? same reason, it has to be unreachable places and mysterious people. black people were mysterious in old Europe.

You heard it here first folks! Climbing down chimneys gives you thick red lips and curly hair! Oh snap!

don't play dumb, my message explained why the character has traditionally African features while people tried later to change the context. of course it's thinly veiled and doesn't make much sense, but we're talking folklore aimed at children, not historical analysis of Nikolaus staff....

LMFAO!

you can lmfao all you want, it' still true. when the us army entered Paris in 45, many French people were seeing black people for the first time. when my father met my mother in Germany in the 70s, he was the first Asian her parents had ever seen ( they thought his hair was fake ). that was a few decades ago, and we're talking about a century-old tradition...

 

[R0nn]

In light of this discussion, anyone in the Netherlands remember this?

These candies (it's chocolate filled with whipped cream), used to be called Negerzoenen, which translates to Negro Kisses. They changed the name to just Zoenen (Kisses) a couple of years ago due to the racial connotations of the name.

 

[Shin Kojima]

In light of this discussion, anyone in the Netherlands remember this?

These candies (it's chocolate filled with whipped cream), used to be called Negerzoenen, which translates to Nigger Kisses. They changed the name to just Zoenen (Kisses) a couple of years ago due to the racial connotations of the name.

It would translate as negro, not nigger.

 

[R0nn]

It would translate as negro, not nigger.

You're right. I edited that.

 

[ymmv]

It would translate as negro, not nigger.

And negro was a perfectly neutral word before it got contaminated by US influences.

nikker = nigger
neger = negro

 

[Desiato]

We'd call them "Negerinnetetten", which is pretty bad even if you take out the racist part.

 

[R0nn]

We'd call them "Negerinnetetten", which is pretty bad even if you take out the racist part.

That's just brilliant!

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

Oh piss off with this racism bullshit. Growing up, I never even thought of it beeing racism until all the 'offended' people starting to speak up. It is explained that they are black, yes black, not brown, because they crawl through chimneys to deliver presents to kids. That is what the kids of our country grow up to beleive and assume is true.
The origin of Zwarte Piet might have been racism, but our children are not made to beleive that. That is the most imporant, not how many hipsters are cool by by holding up 'Zwarte Piet is Racisme' T-Shirt.
Compare it to a wound. Most of the times when you're wounded or fall, you won't even notice the pain until someone points it out.

What I also noticed in the youtube video is that most of the people holding up the t-shirt are black (from Surinam/ Antilles I guess). Also, Anouk has a black ex-husband and Doutzen Kroes has a black boyfriends/husband.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Oh piss off with this racism bullshit. Growing up, I never even thought of it beeing racism until all the 'offended' people starting to speak up. It is explained that they are black, yes black, not brown, because they crawl through chimneys to delivers presents to kids. That is what the kids of our country grow up to beleive and assume is true.
The origin of Zwarte Piet might have been racism, but it's not now and nor are our children made to made beleive that. That is the most imporant, not how many hipsters are cool by by holding up 'Zwarte Piet is Racisme' T-Shirt.
Compare it to a wound. Most of the times when you're wounded or fall, you won't even notice the pain until someone points it out.

What I also noticed in the youtube video is that most of the people holding up the t-shirt are black (from Surinam/ Antilles I guess). Also, Anouk has a black ex-husband and Doutzen Kroes has a black boyfriends/husband.

I'm going to ask my friend from Curacao what he thinks about Sinterklaas Monday. I don't think they celebrate Sinterklaas there. I can see why people may find it racist but my friends and I never saw it that way when we were young. As said before, you can see racist elements in it but the majority of the people who celebrate it don't look at it that way.

 

[Goldrusher]

I'm going to ask my friend from Curacao what he thinks about Sinterklaas Monday. I don't think they celebrate Sinterklaas there. I

Yes, they do.

 

[Souldriver]

What kind of shitty creepy fake ass looking Sinterklaas is that in the OP?




THIS is Sinterklaas! (with the awesomest Piet next to him)

 

[Enron]

Watched the video. Want to punch those people in the face. How about devoting energies to fighting REAL racism, not some holiday character who is black and throws candy to kids?

Edit: Dutch Catholic Indonesian mother - very familiar with Zwarte Piet/Sinterklass

 

[Danielsan]

What kind of shitty creepy fake ass looking Sinterklaas is that in the OP?




THIS is Sinterklaas! (with the awesomest Piet next to him)

I'm sorry, but who is that crappy looking Sinterklaas with the dollar signs on his miter?

Bram van der Vlugt is the only real Sinterklaas. Fact.

 

[Blue Ninja]

What kind of shitty creepy fake ass looking Sinterklaas is that in the OP?




THIS is Sinterklaas! (with the awesomest Piet next to him)

That's Jan Decleir, right? Only right answer.

Seeing Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet getting pegged for racism is like watching my childhood slowly being torn asunder. The story here was always that Zwarte Piet was only black because he spent the majority of his time in chimneys. :lol

Yep. We don't celebrate Christmas like the rest of the western world. Dutch/Flemish kids get their gifts from Sinterklaas on December 5th. There aren't any presents and no Santa Claus during Christmas.

Damn, you must've had a crappy childhood. We celebrated both. Heck, a friend of mine even celebrated Sint Maarten, so he got three presents.

 

[RevDM]

They are in...blackface?

edit: Holy N-Bombs Batman!