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[Dude Abides]

Indeed. Those roles are solely reserved for your sports mascots. Instead you have a chain-gang of height-challenged child-like figures working in sweatshop conditions.

Honestly. Each culture has it own slightly wrong-looking traditions. People shouldn't make such a fuss about it.

Right-thinking people here don't like Chief Wahoo or the Redskins mascots and don't vehemently defend them. And the people that do like to claim that our Native Americans aren't offended so why should anyone else be, so I guess you guys have that in common with our rednecks.

What racial stereotype are Santa's elves based upon?

 

[MWS Natural]

Is that gangstapiet in the green jumpsuit with the medallion?

Jesus.


Are there any black Dutch people on GAF?

 

[soepje]

In Flanders we're actually going back to a more traditional look.

Who is the woman character?

 

[Kurtofan]

In Flanders we're actually going back to a more traditional look.

Some even wear stereotypical Middle Eastern clothes, I'm guessing they got them will falling down a chimney as well lol.

I don't judge the Dutch/Flemish for their traditions, but it's pretty funny to see all the denial going on.

 

[Dina]

Not gonna lie, the Piet/Phil avatar is pretty great.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

So what was Zwarte Piete's origin again? It seems like a lot of dutch posters like to make it look like Piete's origin wasn't caked in racist bigotry.

Parallels can be drawn between the Norse god Odin riding his eight legged horse Sleipnir accompanied with his two black ravens called Huginn and Muninn (Zwarte Pieten).

Quote from, wiki.

According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw, or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy. This practice, she claims, survived in Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes

 

[The Faceless Master]

Jesus.


Are there any black Dutch people on GAF?

iirc, there's one, but he's from the Antilles, so his opinion doesn't count.

also, my Aunt (Uncle's Wife) is from the Dutch Antilles and she says she didn't like it. the look always made her uncomfortable.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

iirc, there's one, but he's from the Antilles, so his opinion doesn't count.

also, my Aunt (Uncle's Wife) is from the Dutch Antilles and she says she didn't like it. the look always made her uncomfortable.

My friend from Curacao said he didn't think it was racist at all.

 

[methane47]

Not every voice is heard in a democracy. I'm sorry but thats just how it is. When there are so few people complaining there is no sense in changing a tradition.

There are propably people in America who don't like independence day, would you give in to their voice? There is a small group of people complaining afterall.

I think 0,0001% of the dutch people care about the issue.

See this? Again, I just told you that Thousands upon thousands of people are offended and you have simply brushed it off. Saying, oops too bad for you, your voice is not worth being heard. As if being offended is a democratic issue. As if being offended is something that should be decided by a Majority vote. If we waited for a majority vote for Human rights issues then Slavery would still exist today.

Anyways, so me and my gf were just in the store shopping and decided to pick up some pepernoten. And the first bag we picked up my gf turned it around to see the nutrition chart. And this is what we found.

HOW is it possible that Dutch people say that The people depicted in this cartoon are not black people?

iirc, there's one, but he's from the Antilles, so his opinion doesn't count.

LOL damnnn son.. There used to be another member who actually worked at Guerilla Games in AMS but he was also from the antilles soooo but he hardly posts in OT.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

my favourite thing about zwarte piet is listening to a bunch of americans tell dutch people how to treat minorities well.

The same america that can't even figure out the gays IN 2000 and fucking 12. Continue to be the shining bastion of freedom and glory America, the rest of us will feel terrible for a largely harmless if somewhat stupid/marginally offensive tradition.

you can really see the cultural differences in this thread. A bunch of dutch people who don't really give a fuck because it isn't seen as a particularly big deal vs a bunch of Americans who want to be seen as wonderful people, despite being one of the most oppressive first world countries to just about every minority that ever got a shitty deal anywhere.

 

[methane47]

my favourite thing about zwarte piet is listening to a bunch of americans tell dutch people how to treat minorities well.

The same america that can't even figure out the gays IN 2000 and fucking 12. Continue to be the shining bastion of freedom and glory America, the rest of us will feel terrible for a largely harmless if somewhat stupid/marginally offensive tradition.

you can really see the cultural differences in this thread. A bunch of dutch people who don't really give a fuck because it isn't seen as a particularly big deal vs a bunch of Americans who want to be seen as wonderful people, despite being one of the most oppressive first world countries to just about every minority that ever got a shitty deal anywhere.

See again, make general assumptions that every one in the world who isn't what you are, is American. Generally you will be wrong.

Secondly So you are saying that Dutch people understand the plight of Gay people and Americans don't, So that should give you a free pass to offend all the minorities in Holland? Since you know, Americans hate Gays so how can they possibly love Minorities? WTF?

Your post makes no sense.

 

[SteveWinwood]

my favourite thing about zwarte piet is listening to a bunch of americans tell dutch people how to treat minorities well.

The same america that can't even figure out the gays IN 2000 and fucking 12. Continue to be the shining bastion of freedom and glory America, the rest of us will feel terrible for a largely harmless if somewhat stupid/marginally offensive tradition.

you can really see the cultural differences in this thread. A bunch of dutch people who don't really give a fuck because it isn't seen as a particularly big deal vs a bunch of Americans who want to be seen as wonderful people, despite being one of the most oppressive first world countries to just about every minority that ever got a shitty deal anywhere.

Yes we are one of the most oppressive countries in the world.

Also I don't know how I refrained from posting in here so long. One of the nearby universities just got their mascot removed so I need some people denying whether things are racist.

 

[Chuckie]

Yes we are one of the most oppressive countries in the world.

To be fair, that is not what he said.

 

[Dina]

See again, make general assumptions that every one in the world who isn't what you are, is American. Generally you will be wrong.

Secondly So you are saying that Dutch people understand the plight of Gay people and Americans don't, So that should give you a free pass to offend all the minorities in Holland? Since you know, Americans hate Gays so how can they possibly love Minorities? WTF?

Your post makes no sense.

In general, practice what you preach. This goes both ways, but since the United States is below most of the European countries - especially Scandinavian countries, Germany and The Netherlands - in regards to equality, both same-sex and race-related, it applies to Americans more then it applies to Dutchmen.

 

[Zabka]

In general, practice what you preach. This goes both ways, but since the United States is below most of the European countries - especially Scandinavian countries, Germany and The Netherlands - in regards to equality, both same-sex and race-related, it applies to Americans more then it applies to Dutchmen.

I'd love to know how the US is behind on race relations.

 

[methane47]

In general, practice what you preach. This goes both ways, but since the United States is below most of the European countries - especially Scandinavian countries, Germany and The Netherlands - in regards to equality, both same-sex and race-related, it applies to Americans more then it applies to Dutchmen.

I don't even know what this means. You are saying since the US is behind EU when it comes to equality, that means that people who are NOT from the US, People that are actually Dutch, or Dutch People that are actually Living IN the Netherlands should not be allowed to voice their opinions? How does this make any sense at all?

 

[Arjen]

So for the people against.
Let's say you get the veto in how you can change Zwarte Piet for the next year.
What would you do?

Not black at all anymore?
No red lips and or afro?
Ditch the costumes?
How are people going to explain the massive changes to Piet to their children?

I can see the appearance of Piet changing over time gradually, but some of you seemed to want to change it over night, i'm curious how you would deal with that.

 

[Alucrid]

Europe is the bastion of equality guys. They erased racism like thirteen years ago.

 

[methane47]

So for the people against.
Let's say you get the veto in how you can change Zwarte Piet for the next year.
What would you do?

Not black at all anymore?
No red lips and or afro?
Ditch the costumes?
How are people going to explain the massive changes to Piet to their children?

I can see the appearance of Piet changing over time gradually, but some of you seemed to want to change it over night, i'm curious how you would deal with that.

I don't think you would need to change the existing Zwarte Piet. I would think maybe just add more different piet Like what they do in Suriname.

Or diffferent colored piets, rose piet, blauwe piet, witte piet

 

[Goldrusher]

They did that in The Netherlands a few years ago, kids started crying.

 

[Alucrid]

So for the people against.
Let's say you get the veto in how you can change Zwarte Piet for the next year.
What would you do?

Not black at all anymore?
No red lips and or afro?
Ditch the costumes?
How are people going to explain the massive changes to Piet to their children?

I can see the appearance of Piet changing over time gradually, but some of you seemed to want to change it over night, i'm curious how you would deal with that.

Are people going to throw themselves from the rooftops because their holiday mascot changed?

 

[Viewt]

So for the people against.
Let's say you get the veto in how you can change Zwarte Piet for the next year.
What would you do?

Not black at all anymore?
No red lips and or afro?
Ditch the costumes?
How are people going to explain the massive changes to Piet to their children?

I can see the appearance of Piet changing over time gradually, but some of you seemed to want to change it over night, i'm curious how you would deal with that.

- I'd change the costume to being a dude actually covered in soot (or make-up made to look like soot, I suppose).

- He'd dress in fanciful clothing to keep the fairytale feel, but other than that, he'd look like whatever the dude playing him would look like, just in fairytale clothes and some splotches made to look like soot.

- If someone, likely a child, asked me, "Why does Pete look different this year?" I'd say because we have better costumes and make-up now than we used to, so we can make him look more realistic. As for an in-folklore reason, I guess I'd say something like, "Now that Pete looks more normal, he's able to get more candy!" After all, this is supposed to be for the kids, right? Give them more candy one year and they'll laugh and cheer and not care in the slightest.

Anyway, I'm not interested in getting into any arguments comparing countries, because it's kind of irrelevant to the conversation. I'm not Dutch, so my opinion only counts as an outside voice, but I personally don't really like it for reasons I outlined earlier in the thread.

 

[Arjen]

Are people going to throw themselves from the rooftops because their holiday mascot changed?

How would kids in the US react if Santaclaus would look completly different?
Seriously, i get why outsiders react the way they react because they feel the image is racist to them. You just don't seem to understand, or you are just trolling, that this is THE holiday here, on par with Christmas.

- I'd change the costume to being a dude actually covered in soot (or make-up made to look like soot, I suppose).

- He'd dress in fanciful clothing to keep the fairytale feel, but other than that, he'd look like whatever the dude playing him would look like, just in fairytale clothes and some splotches made to look like soot.

- If someone, likely a child, asked me, "Why does Pete look different this year?" I'd say because we have better costumes and make-up now than we used to, so we can make him look more realistic. As for an in-folklore reason, I guess I'd say something like, "Now that Pete looks more normal, he's able to get more candy!" After all, this is supposed to be for the kids, right? Give them more candy one year and they'll laugh and cheer and not care in the slightest.

Anyway, I'm not interested in getting into any arguments comparing countries, because it's kind of irrelevant to the conversation. I'm not Dutch, so my opinion only counts as an outside voice, but I personally don't really like it for reasons I outlined earlier in the thread.

Thanks, i could get behind that i guess.

 

[Chuckie]

Well like I wrote earlier in this thread:

As to my personal opinion:

The image of Zwarte Piet has changed these years (thank God). Even in my lifetime. As a small kid, he was still somewhat scary, but growing up he became so much fun. When I was three, he was a guy who would punish you when you were bad, when I was six he was the guy who handed out the candy.
Over the years they have removed the 'punishing' element, and I think they can, and should, remove the racial element.
I can honestly tell you that growing up, I thought he was black because of the chimney, but looking at him now it is clear he is a Moor.
My suggestion (which no one gives a fuck about ) would be to slowly remove racial elements. Next year, no more red lips, the year after that no more curly hair, the year after that really obvious black smudges on the face...to make it look like ashes, not skincolour. But thats just my two cents.

 

[Alucrid]

How would kids in the US react if Santaclaus would look completly different?
Seriously, i get why outsiders react the way they react because they feel the image is racist to them. You just don't seem to understand, or you are just trolling, that this is THE holiday here, on par with Christmas.



Thanks, i could get behind that i guess.

does they still get presents? Then they probably won't care if santa started wearing purple with a bowler hat. Would getting rid of the blackface completely ruin sinterklass for everyone? Is that what holds the holiday together for you?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

my favourite thing about zwarte piet is listening to a bunch of americans tell dutch people how to treat minorities well.

The same america that can't even figure out the gays IN 2000 and fucking 12. Continue to be the shining bastion of freedom and glory America, the rest of us will feel terrible for a largely harmless if somewhat stupid/marginally offensive tradition.

you can really see the cultural differences in this thread. A bunch of dutch people who don't really give a fuck because it isn't seen as a particularly big deal vs a bunch of Americans who want to be seen as wonderful people, despite being one of the most oppressive first world countries to just about every minority that ever got a shitty deal anywhere.

My favorite part is ignorant posters who assume that the people they argue with are from the US even though most of their time their location is listed in their profile and is anywhere BUT the US. That's just my favorite part though.

So what exactly does Rihanna mean when she calls herself and people she knows Nigger/Nigga? That's some legit self hate I guess.

Sure they can use it. If idiot keeps being used in a positive way sure, just don't act surprised when someone calls you idiot in a positive way as well! Context is important! Is the user trying to be nice or purposely trying to offend you. The meaning of words can never change! Ever!

Look I'm just saying Nigger/Nigga can be used both in a positive or negative way depending on how it's used, but the color of the skin of who says it shouldn't matter.

"Nigger" is not the same as Nigga, in none of those tweets that were posted by Rhianna did she ever use "nigger". These type of posts just hurt my head

 

[Arjen]

does they still get presents? Then they probably won't care if santa started wearing purple with a bowler hat. Would getting rid of the blackface completely ruin sinterklass for everyone? Is that what holds the holiday together for you?

Really, if Santa would wear yellow spandex or something all of a sudden nobody would give a shit? I find that hard to believe..

 

[Majmun]

I'm from Holland (not native though) and I definitely understand the people who think this is racist. You can't ignore the blackface.

But I personally think that it's harmless now. It's a fun tradition and everyone loves the Pieten.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

My favorite part is ignorant posters who assume that the people they argue with are from the US even though most of their time their location is listed in their profile and is anywhere BUT the US. That's just my favorite part though.

Oh I don't think everyone in here is from US, it's just a largely US dominated forum and there is often quite a lot of righteous preaching from US folk on how people should be treated, dispite the fact that if you compare netherlands vs USA on literally any human rights issue or being progressive at all, NL will absolutely mop the floor with the USA, everytime it's not even close.

I'm not saying that as a dutchman either, (dutch immigrant though).

my position on the issue is zwarte piet is quite obviously blackface and it was pretty wtf when I first arrived. I'm also of the position that blackface is far far less offensive to the dutch population than other populations. I'm also of the opinion that the dutch tend to be progressive on stuff that acutally matters first and stuff like this will change in time. It's already begun anyway, the rainbow piet thing has been tried, it didn't work. To the frustration of others around the world who would demand it just gets implemented and damnit it's fairer that way, that isn't how things shake out in holland.

I expect that the rainbow piet thing will be here in 20 years. Black piet will still be represented, but only one of the characters. People will still call it racist.

Tence said this better than me already..

 

[Zabka]

So you agree that it's racist but you just don't like being told it's racist.

 

[zaxon]

See this? Again, I just told you that Thousands upon thousands of people are offended and you have simply brushed it off. Saying, oops too bad for you, your voice is not worth being heard. As if being offended is a democratic issue. As if being offended is something that should be decided by a Majority vote. If we waited for a majority vote for Human rights issues then Slavery would still exist today.

Thousands upon thousands of people view Harry Potter as offensive because they feel he represents satanism and witchcraft. We brush them off because we look at their claims and dismiss them as baseless and unreasonable. The Dutch have done the same thing here. If you want to change their minds, you'll need better arguments than "I'm offended because it's racist, and it's obviously racist since I'm offended."

People that are actually Dutch, or Dutch People that are actually Living IN the Netherlands should not be allowed to voice their opinions? How does this make any sense at all?

Disagreeing with your opinions is not the same as telling you that you are not allowed to have them or share them.

 

[Byakuya769]

I'd love to know how the US is behind on race relations.

Something that is said because Americans discuss their race issues, some Europeans like to make them non-existent by saying that they're... non-existent.

It's how you can have a racist caricature be germane simply because you said it was.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

So you agree that it's racist but you just don't like being told it's racist.

I don't think I was alive when blackface was a thing that was still in practice. i'm 33 and I vaguely remember some people having a gollywog doll and I think back in the time they were already banned from sale but people had kept em as they grew up with them and they held sentimental value.

I have no connection to the culture of racism that surrounded them during their time and I don't perceive the tradition here to be overtly racist. I don't also notice negative backlash from the population.

based off that, I'm not sure that 'it's racist' and I'm hesistant to just BAN things outright. I mean, how about a bible and a koran ban? Those books are just full of plainly homophobic pro slavery shit, I don't see anyone getting their knickers in a twist about that. Things change. I think zwarte Piet can be a character that had a racist origin and emerge from that to modernise and be a standard black character that everybody likes. (possibly).

I mean what is the alternative here? Hey kids, you know that character you loved, he's dead now and you're all bad children for having loved him?

I'd love to know how the US is behind on race relations.

I'd love to know how they're in front on pretty much any minority or progressive issues AT ALL as directly compared to the Netherlands (let's not bring other euro countries into this for a bit)

 

[methane47]

Thousands upon thousands of people view Harry Potter as offensive because they feel he represents satanism and witchcraft. We brush them off because we look at their claims and dismiss them as baseless and unreasonable. The Dutch have done the same thing here. If you want to change their minds, you'll need better arguments than "I'm offended because it's racist, and it's obviously racist since I'm offended."



Disagreeing with your opinions is not the same as telling you that you are not allowed to have them or share them.

And those people are allowed to peacefully protest. While in holland if you protest Zwarte Piet at the parade you get thrown in jail.

And outside the parade many dutch people pretend that

1. There is nothing that can possibly be wrong with Zwarte Piet
2. If you do think its wrong, you just don't understand dutch culture
3. You don't exist.

 

[Alucrid]

Really, if Santa would wear yellow spandex or something all of a sudden nobody would give a shit? I find that hard to believe..

No, really, what are the hypothetical repercussions if they stop wearing blackface? Will the children commit mass suicide in memory of black Pete?

I think the only people who would be upset at santa changing are those who are upset at black Pete changing, stubborn adults.

 

[Zabka]

I'd love to know how they're in front on pretty much any minority or progressive issues AT ALL as directly compared to the Netherlands (let's not bring other euro countries into this for a bit)

The US doesn't have people in blackface dancing around for children.

Also, black president.

 

[Arjen]

No, really, what are the hypothetical repercussions if they stop wearing blackface? Will the children commit mass suicide in memory of black Pete?

I think the only people who would be upset at santa changing are those who are upset at black Pete changing, stubborn adults.

Yes.

 

[harSon]

I can stomach the argument that Zwarte Piet is not racist/offensive in the Netherlands since it lacks the social stigma found in other parts of the world. I don't agree with it, and think it's unadulterated horse shit, but I can stomach it.

But we're on a forum where the majority of the user base's societies do in fact find the practice of black face to be incredibly offensive, racist and demeaning. So why is there someone with a Zwarte Piet avatar? If we were on a Dutch forum, I could understand its usage, but we're on a forum with a significant presence of black members who are descended from African slaves and whose people suffered at the hands of the bigoted beliefs that black face represents.

I honestly don't want to see that shit when viewing the forum, and I'm sure I'm not alone. The insistence on using the character knowing full well that many members outside of the Netherlands disagree with its continued usage, shows a complete lack of respect and insensitivity towards many members here, regardless of whether its racist or not in YOUR society.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I assume this was some dutch gaf fuck the man statement.

 

[Jackben]

They did that in The Netherlands a few years ago, kids started crying.

Why are you trying to rape Dutch traditions and make children cry, GAF? Just keep your American values to your self, you fucking monsters.

 

[Flo]

Apparently Sinterklaas isn't the only holiday with questionable backgrounds..

Thanksgiving: A Day of Celebration or Mourning for Native Americans?

 

[freenudemacusers]

Apparently Sinterklaas isn't the only holiday with questionable backgrounds..

Thanksgiving: A Day of Celebration or Mourning for Native Americans?

Try harder

 

[Stet]

Apparently Sinterklaas isn't the only holiday with questionable backgrounds..

Thanksgiving: A Day of Celebration or Mourning for Native Americans?

Well, yeah. But the tradition is already changing to include better education about Native American suffering rather than focussing on the fictional narrative. Nobody's really pissed off about it.

 

[Kabouter]

Apparently Sinterklaas isn't the only holiday with questionable backgrounds..

Thanksgiving: A Day of Celebration or Mourning for Native Americans?

Okay, this thread is clearly over now that anything even remotely related to the argument at hand has been discussed at length, and we're moving on to unrelated nonsense like this. See you next year folks!