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[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

What? I'm American. The parallel I tried to draw was one that was relevant to an American point of view, so that is who it was directed at. The point applies to anyone, but I'm not sure how familiar "Cop Killer" and American attitudes towards gangsta rap are outside of America.

Alright, I mistook your post then. People who keep acting like it's all stupid americans who are too stupid to realize there are people other than their culture and are so ignorant to the world kept bringing up stuff in america for whatever reason. I thought that's what you were going for and it's happened in so many threads it just makes me beat my head against the wall. Especially when the people they are arguing with have their location listed in their profile and is always everywhere EXCEPT the US but they still spout ignorant nonsense. Sorry about that then.

 

[Xeke]

Dark Elf cosplay. Racist or okay?

Thats fine. No bright red lips or afro.

 

[Loofy]

Dark Elf cosplay. Racist or okay?

A little racist.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Link fell down a hyrule chimney

 

[Byakuya769]

What kind of soot makes your lips fire red?

 

[Enron]

This strikes me as similar to those in America's South and their odd justifications for the rebel flag.

except the confederate flag was adopted as a symbol of hatred and racism, whereas Zwarte Piet continued to just chuck candy at kids in a parade. Nice equation there!

 

[The Faceless Master]

Just read up on it properly and that was more a case of a two stupid people, Rihanna and that writer...

how is Rihanna one of the two stupid people in the context of that article?

 

[Dude Abides]

How can something be offensive if two entirely separate societies, with their own cultural, political and social spheres, both liberal democracies, the only societies who incorporate the folkloristic element in question, don't consider it offensive?

Indeed. How could a caricature of black people be offensive if two whole societies of overwhelmingly white people don't find it offensive? How? The mind boggles.

 

[The Faceless Master]

There are enough volunteers playing Zwarte Piet that are black.

and that saves on the makeup budget too, no need to wear wigs!

 

[Stet]

Yeah, that's a pretty good metre stick actually. When black Dutch people portray Piet, do they paint their faces black like soot?

 

[The Faceless Master]

This Santa comparison makes no fucking sense what so ever. Santa doesn't have blackface roots.

the comparison doesn't make any sense because even as a kid 30 years ago, i saw black santas!

 

[Onemic]

the comparison doesn't make any sense because even as a kid 30 years ago, i saw black santas!

but it goes against tradition! Santa can only be white!

 

[Arjen]

the comparison doesn't make any sense because even as a kid 30 years ago, i saw black santas!

but it goes against tradition! Santa can only be white!

When i put an exclamation mark behind my short sententce it's bound to make more sense!
Ugh.

 

[Goldrusher]

how is Rihanna one of the two stupid people in the context of that article?

Maybe because Rihanna uses the words nigga and bitch in every other tweet referring to herself?

From this November alone:

Niggaz in Paris
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/269951420416020481

My nigga http://instagr.am/p/R2uGRxBM2w/
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/267296215211843584

Black boxy tank, Ivory wrinkled skirt: Much love to Miu Miu for letting me be the first bitch to wear S/S 20 http://instagr.am/p/RzMXfqBM_a/
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/266800420607889409

1 big room, full o bad bitches http://instagr.am/p/RwT1mUBMzy/
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/266394136272306177

My bitches pretty in pink http://instagr.am/p/RwTntdBMzn/
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/266393623627710464

I bet u niggas gone be like "bitch dis my fucking song" #UNAPOLOGETIC
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/266276079847751680

Monas are rolling loudies, and my bitches so Bvalgari!! Bodies of Dulcattis'll do what the fuck you want! #UNAPOLOGETIC
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/266275915636555776

Niggaz. http://instagr.am/p/RouqVGhM2J/
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/265327168563838976

Bitch I'm phresh out the runway #UNAPOLOGETIC
https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/264882329317687297

If you don't like it when people use bitch and nigga to describe you, don't use them to describe yourself.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Maybe because Rihanna uses the words nigga and bitch in every other tweet referring to herself?

From this November alone:

If you don't like it when people use bitch and nigga to describe you, don't use them to describe yourself.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

nobody in our American society finds Rihanna referring to herself and her friends and associates as nigga or bitch considers that to be offensive.

Americans as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn't fully understand our American culture refers to Rihanna as a niggabitch.

 

[2San]

nobody in our American society finds Rihanna referring to herself and her friends and associates as nigga or bitch considers that to be offensive.

Americans as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn't fully understand our American culture refers to Rihanna as a niggabitch.

And you have to understand that's fucking confusing. You can yourself a bitch or/and nigga and you are offended that someone calls you that? Do you know how stupid that sounds from an outsiders perspective?

I could refer to the Dave chapelle skit about "dressing in a certain way" and replace it with "referring to yourself a certain way".

 

[Goldrusher]

nobody in our American society finds Rihanna referring to herself and her friends and associates as nigga or bitch considers that to be offensive.

Americans as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn't fully understand our American culture refers to Rihanna as a niggabitch.

Rihanna isn't American.

 

[The Faceless Master]

And you have to understand that's fucking confusing. You can yourself a bitch or/and nigga and you are offended that someone calls you that? Do you know how stupid that sounds from an outsiders perspective?

I could refer to the Dave chapelle skit about "dressing in a certain way" and replace it with "referring to yourself a certain way".

it's not confusing at all. it's not stupid at all. you seem to have displayed that you clearly understand the concept and just choose to not respect it.

and i don't even get why a comedy skit is relevant?

Rihanna isn't American.

she has a green card and resides in America.

 

[methane47]

Rihanna isn't American.

No one in the Caribbean either.

Nobody in Flemish/Dutch society considers Zwarte Piet a representation of black people anymore. The racial dimension is completely lost. And with it, the offending nature.

Zwarte Piet is now 'just' Zwarte Piet.

Untrue... Thousands upon Thousands of people do. Its just those people are considered a minority and hence their opinion doesn't matter to you. The dutch have showed this time and time again.

The fact is, in this world, if you wait for the Majority of people to agree then things would have never happened. See Women's rights and/or slavery.

 

[The Faceless Master]

PETA status.. I am a firm believer in stamping out racism (being a minority in Texas will do that for ya), but all this time and effort into fighting.. this? Stop embarrassing me. How racist!

Move over Netherlands and Belgium, ya'll got some competition from the far east.

this is actually a pretty interesting thing. some people in this very thread have suggested a similar idea as a potential change for piet that would end up being visually like that.

No one in the Caribbean either.

Puerto Ricans and US Virgin Islanders would disagree.

 

[Steelrain]

Move over Netherlands and Belgium, ya'll got some competition from the far east.

You must be slow.

 

[Dina]

nobody in our American society finds Rihanna referring to herself and her friends and associates as nigga or bitch considers that to be offensive.

Americans as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn't fully understand our American culture refers to Rihanna as a niggabitch.

And still you scoff at the use of Blackface. "doesn't fully understand" is precisely why I haven't given a shit about these threads for years because easily offended Americans are up in arms about the entire issue. This is about different cultures not understanding each other.

Rihanne is dumb as fuck tho. So there's that.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I'm curious what year it was decided this was no longer racist, since everyone seems to agree it was in fact racist. 1950? 1999?

 

[methane47]

Puerto Ricans and US Virgin Islanders would disagree.

Puerto Ricans and UVIslanders think its offensive if someone insults themselves?

 

[2San]

it's not confusing at all. it's not stupid at all. you seem to have displayed that you clearly understand the concept and just choose to not respect it.

and i don't even get why a comedy skit is relevant?

There's no consistency at all. If you think rationally. If you call yourself something, is it weird that someone calls you that as well? How can you take a bad word and make it "positive", when you throw a fit when someone else calls you that?

Where do I not respect it? I haven't called Rihanna a nigga or a bitch. I find a lot of things in other cultures dumb(lol tipping), but that doesn't mean I go out of my to go against it. I tend to respect the cultures of other people unless it's goes against what I morally stand for.

 

[Htown]

And now we've gotten to the "how come black people can say the n-word and white people can't?" part of the conversation.

Racism deniers: predictable as hell.

 

[Half and half]

It might not make sense or be fair, but don't ever use the N word if you don't know what you're doing lol.

 

[itsgreen]

It might not make sense or be fair, but don't ever use the N word if you don't know what you're doing lol.

How about just, don't ever use the N word.

And now we've gotten to the "how come black people can say the n-word and white people can't?" part of the conversation.

Racism deniers: predictable as hell.

I am uninformed, and foreign, why IS it ok for black people to call themselves nigga's?

 

[2San]

And now we've gotten to the "how come black people can say the n-word and white people can't?" part of the conversation.

Racism deniers: predictable as hell.

That's a lot easier then participating in the discussion I guess. Must be fun to scoff other people off, without adding anything.

 

[agrajag]

What's the protocol on using the word bitch?

 

[Furoba]

What's the protocol on using the word bitch?

Mandatory: http://www.explosm.net/comics/1311/

 

[Half and half]

How about just, don't ever use the N word.

I am uninformed, and foreign, why IS it ok for black people to call themselves nigga's?

It's not necessarily "ok". But if some black folks have an understanding of each other, then they can refer to each other how ever they'd like.

I've heard my Mexican-American friends use terms to describe each other that I'm not going to use. I don't have a full appreciation of their experiences, history, and culture so I just don't "get it". No big deal, I can still hang and have fun.

 

[Y-Z]

nobody in our American society finds Rihanna referring to herself and her friends and associates as nigga or bitch considers that to be offensive.

Americans as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn't fully understand our American culture refers to Rihanna as a niggabitch.

Nobody in our Dutch Society finds Zwarte piet and his friends and associaties to be offensive.

Dutch people as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn´t fully understand our Dutch culture refer to Zwarte Piet as racist.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Nobody in our Dutch Society finds Zwarte piet and his friends and associaties to be offensive.

Dutch people as a whole find it to be VERY offensiven when some foreigner that doesn´t fully understand our Dutch culture refer to Zwarte Piet as racist.

but it was offensive and it was racist, at least according to posters here... so when did it change?

 

[itsgreen]

but it was offensive and it was racist, at least according to posters here... so when did it change?

Over the last 100 years?

It has been pretty harmless for a long long time now...

It's not necessarily "ok". But if some black folks have an understanding of each other, then they can refer to each other how ever they'd like.

I've heard my Mexican-American friends use terms to describe each other that I'm just not going to repeat. I don't have a full appreciation of their history and culture so I just don't "get it". No big deal, I can still hang and have fun.

So if there is consensus among a group something that can be interpret racist otherwise isn't racist anymore?

 

[Half and half]

So if there is consensus among a group something that can be interpret racist otherwise isn't racist anymore?

I'm not sure what you're asking. But sure, things lose meaning over time. I imagine the N-word will get there eventually, but there's no consensus on the word.

ex. not every black person thinks it's okay for other black people to use it. I'd cringe a bit when my grandfather would say it.

 

[Dude Abides]

Nobody in our Dutch Society finds Zwarte piet and his friends and associaties to be offensive.

Dutch people as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn´t fully understand our Dutch culture refer to Zwarte Piet as racist.

Apparently a small minority of Dutch do find it offensive.

As for your culture, it's not very complicated and there's nothing that us filthy foreigners don't understand. It had a racist origin, but you guys apparently decided that it is no longer racist. Nonetheless it retains the racist imagery. It's laudable that you guys attempted to expunge the racist elements, but you did a half-assed job. The puzzling thing to the rest of us is why you resist so strongly suggestions that you tweak it further to remove all the racist elements.

 

[itsgreen]

I'm not sure what you're asking. But sure, things lose meaning over time. I imagine the N-word will get there eventually, but there's no consensus on the word.

That is what happened with Zwarte Piet. But nationwide in Belgium and the Netherlands. And there basically is consensus among everybody except a small minority within a minority.

 

[The Faceless Master]

And still you scoff at the use of Blackface. "doesn't fully understand" is precisely why I haven't given a shit about these threads for years because easily offended Americans are up in arms about the entire issue. This is about different cultures not understanding each other.

what are you even talking about!?!?!?

Rihanne is dumb as fuck tho. So there's that.

why do you think she's "dumb as fuck" though?

Puerto Ricans and UVIslanders think its offensive if someone insults themselves?

i thought you were saying that nobody in the Caribbean was American.

Nobody in our Dutch Society finds Zwarte piet and his friends and associaties to be offensive.

Dutch people as a whole find it to be VERY offensive when some foreigner that doesn´t fully understand our Dutch culture refer to Zwarte Piet as racist.

you quoted me, but i'm baffled as to why. your response seems to not actually be related to my post except as some sort of transposition of words...

 

[Slayven]

And now we've gotten to the "how come black people can say the n-word and white people can't?" part of the conversation.

Racism deniers: predictable as hell.

A new Natural's law?

 

[itsgreen]

why do you think she's "dumb as fuck" though?

Although it's not a reaction to my post, but I also think she is fucking stupid. Great singer though.

Among others I think she is fucking stupid because she got back with Chris Brown, the things she says (on Twitter) (like, but not limited to: nigga this, nigga that), the way she dresses etc.

Someone should slap some sense into her... oh... wait...

 

[The Faceless Master]

There's no consistency at all. If you think rationally. If you call yourself something, is it weird that someone calls you that as well? How can you take a bad word and make it "positive", when you throw a fit when someone else calls you that?

Where do I not respect it? I haven't called Rihanna a nigga or a bitch. I find a lot of things in other cultures dumb(lol tipping), but that doesn't mean I go out of my to go against it. I tend to respect the cultures of other people unless it's goes against what I morally stand for.

earlier that thread...

And you have to understand that's fucking confusing. You can yourself a bitch or/and nigga and you are offended that someone calls you that? Do you know how stupid that sounds from an outsiders perspective?

I could refer to the Dave chapelle skit about "dressing in a certain way" and replace it with "referring to yourself a certain way".

you summed it up in one sentence, how is that not consistent?

Although it's not a reaction to my post, but I also think she is fucking stupid. Great singer though.

Among others I think she is fucking stupid because she got back with Chris Brown, the things she says (on Twitter) (like, but not limited to: nigga this, nigga that), the way she dresses etc.

Someone should slap some sense into her... oh... wait...

so she's "fucking stupid" because you don't agree with her forgiving nature, you don't like that she has assimilated urban american culture and you just don't like the appearance of her clothing?

A new Natural's law?

Htown's Law! gotta DIVERSIFY!!!

 

[Zabka]

Although it's not a reaction to my post, but I also think she is fucking stupid. Great singer though.

Among others I think she is fucking stupid because she got back with Chris Brown, the things she says (on Twitter) (like, but not limited to: nigga this, nigga that), the way she dresses etc.

Someone should slap some sense into her... oh... wait...

Are you mental?

 

[Stet]

Yeah, that's a pretty good metre stick actually. When black Dutch people portray Piet, do they paint their faces black like soot?

Can any Dutch members shed some light on this?

 

[Y-Z]

Apparently a small minority of Dutch do find it offensive.

As for your culture, it's not very complicated and there's nothing that us filthy foreigners don't understand. It had a racist origin, but you guys apparently decided that it is no longer racist. Nonetheless it retains the racist imagery. It's laudable that you guys attempted to expunge the racist elements, but you did a half-assed job. The puzzling thing to the rest of us is why you resist so strongly suggestions that you tweak it further to remove all the racist elements.

Because we don't want to be policed by foreigners about our own culture. In other words: it's non of your business.

 

[Dude Abides]

Because we don't want to be policed by foreigners about our own culture. In other words: it's non of your business.

You're not being policed. We're just suggesting that you make a few additional changes so your beloved character doesn't look like a Little Black Sambo ripoff any longer. You're free to keep your racist depiction of this character, but don't be shocked and offended when people point out that it is pretty obviously racist.

 

[2San]

earlier that thread...


you summed it up in one sentence, how is that not consistent?

Consistency would mean you are either OK with the words or you aren't. I sorta understand why young Black Americans use the word, but from a neutral outsider perspective(who doesn't know the history) it's a really odd distinction to make.

 

[methane47]

Can any Dutch members shed some light on this?

Well in suriname they go for more Multicolored celebrations.

here in St. Maarten Sinterklaas is not celebrated at all by the public. The White community will hold some small celebrations somewhere but nothing big.

Consistency would mean you are either OK with the words or you aren't. I understand why Black Americans use the words, but from a neutral outsider perspective(who doesn't know the history) it's a really odd distinction to make.

Yeah that is such a BS excuse of how Blacks shouldnt use the word themselves. I have a nickname that my close family call me. But I absolutely HATE it when others call me that.
Similarly i may call my girlfriend a pet name. but she would probably be offended if others called her by that moniker.

Similarly in Fraternities in the states, there are secrets words and names and handshakes but it is only appreciated when it comes from a member within that group. When outsiders do it, it is considered an offense.

If my best friend calls me an idiot the meaning of that word is COMPLETELY different then if a stranger calls me the same.

 

[cutmeamango]

Netherlands, it's time for a reverse.
Make Sinterklass black, and Piets, two blonde Pietas.

 

[2San]

Yeah that is such a BS excuse of how Blacks shouldnt use the word themselves. I have a nickname that my close family call me. But I absolutely HATE it when others call me that.
Similarly i may call my girlfriend a pet name. but she would probably be offended if others called her by that moniker.

Similarly in Fraternities in the states, there are secrets words and names and handshakes but it is only appreciated when it comes from a member within that group. When outsiders do it, it is considered an offense.

If my best friend calls me an idiot the meaning of that word is COMPLETELY different then if a stranger calls me the same.

I'm simply pointing out the inconsistency. You aren't a public figure either. Rihanna is a public figure with influence on a lot of people including people with a different skin color. Because hey not all people are racist and might enjoy your music. You as a public figure use the word in public in a positive way and are surprised that others use the word in a positive way as well?