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[Loofy]

Why are you grabbing every straw to indicate that a minority might be right, but refusing every possibility the minority could be wrong.

lol grabbing straws, coming from the guy who equated black face to white men growing beards. btw a hitler stache is probably taboo in alot of places...
Your only argument is that the minority is wrong because the majority see themselves as right.
Its historically racist and more than a few dutch people find it racist.

Reminds me of the spain olympic team doing 'chinese eyes' in a picture and then saying 'lol people in spain dont find it racist and chinese people have no business telling us its racist.'

 

[Metrotab]

lol grabbing straws, coming from the guy who equated black face to white men growing beards.
Your only argument is that the minority is wrong because the majority see themselves as right.
Its historically racist and more than a few dutch people find it racist.

Reminds me of the spain olympic team doing 'chinese eyes' in a picture and then saying 'lol people in spain dont find it racist and chinese people have no business telling us its racist.'

Not enough to gain any political traction. A minority of a minority.

And several arguments have been given as to why Zwarte Piet is not considered racist by Flemish/Dutch society. That's what this entire thread is about.

 

[Loofy]

Not enough to gain any political traction. A minority of a minority.

And therefore negligible.

If you wanna go that route than one can say the Netherlands is a minority and america has the more legitimate opinion on whats socially acceptable.

 

[itsgreen]

lol grabbing straws, coming from the guy who equated black face to white men growing beards. btw a hitler stache is probably taboo in alot of places...
Your only argument is that the minority is wrong because the majority see themselves as right.
Its historically racist and more than a few dutch people find it racist.

Reminds me of the spain olympic team doing 'chinese eyes' in a picture and then saying 'lol people in spain dont find it racist and chinese people have no business telling us its racist.'

If you are referring to me equating a child calling a fat white man Santa, and a black man Zwarte Piet. You are grossly misrepresenting me.

When the majority is as diverse as possible and also encapsulates the overwhelming majority of people who should be offended in your eyes... is it more likely the minority is wrong or right?

I would equate well, an optimistic guess, 100 people in that video on a population of 16.something million a few people yes.

 

[akira28]

This is how really crazy and evil history gets buried, like the wiping out of entire tribes and religions and such. 'Don't talk about it, just keep living life and moving forward until it's so far behind you that it doesn't matter.' I guess that works, in it's way. Europe has definitely had to deal with that and much more. But I feel like things don't get resolved, they just kind of biodegrade.

 

[Metrotab]

And therefore negligible.

If you wanna go that route than one can say the Netherlands is a minority and america has the more legitimate opinion on whats socially acceptable.

Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with Americans. It is an element of Flemish/Dutch folklore, and confined to Flemish/Dutch society (+ a few former colonies).

So American opinion on this tradition has no bearing on whether or not this tradition is acceptable in our culture.

 

[Metrotab]

This is how really crazy and evil history gets buried, like the wiping out of entire tribes and religions and such. 'Don't talk about it, just keep living life and moving forward until it's so far behind you that it doesn't matter.' I guess that works, in it's way. Europe has definitely had to deal with that and much more. But I feel like things don't get resolved, they just kind of biodegrade.

I don't know how it is in the Netherlands, but everyone with sufficient historic knowledge in Belgium knows what King Leopold II's reign did in Congo. We don't forget our colonial past.

 

[Kreed]

Those countries are oppressive theocracies however. Belgium and the Netherlands are open democracies with a good track record on human rights and respect for minority groups, with sufficient democratic channels to air grievances. In neither of these countries, which have separate political cultures and separate political channels, is Zwarte Piet a political issue. Minority representation is not ignored in either country, there are many politicians who have taken up that cause. Yet they ignore Zwarte Piet, despite its yearly return or its important place in our folklore and culture.

So we can rightfully conclude that in the democratic spheres of Belgian (Flemish) and Dutch society Zwarte Piet is not considered offensive, or part of an outdated racial ideology, hence unbefitting of a modern democratic nation.

I also want to clarify that I don't consider Belgium or the Netherlands racist/oppressive societies. I don't know nearly enough to even attempt to make that claim and honestly I have no reason to believe that they are.

That being said, is this Zwarte Piet discussion a political issue in Belgium and the Netherlands? In the US for example, this would be a social issue. There is no ban on using black face/minstrel shows in our country or any laws preventing it. If a television show or movie wanted to (and they still do) make a black faced character they would be free to do so, but they would generally receive a negative public backlash (most likely from a large group of black people) unless they had a good context for doing so.

Personally I believe this movement in the OP is going to grow vs shrink. You mentioned that the people complaining are a minority group within a small minority group. That itself is a problem IMO, because if the minority group was larger like it is in the US, I feel there would be more people complaining/joining in their cause because they'd feel more comfortable doing so.

Why are you grabbing every straw to indicate that a minority might be right, but refusing every possibility the minority could be wrong.

Then explain to me why they are wrong for being offended? I and plenty others have explained why we view this character negatively from a number of view points and have offered suggestions as to how to solve this issue without damaging the character, but the most we've gotten is that we are from the US and wouldn't understand/how the character's origins have changed/how silly we all are for getting offended over a innocent children's character. These kinds of comments don't help to persuade anyone towards your argument.

And despite all of this I haven't seen a strong argument on why Zwarte Pieten's red lips, hair, and black skin are a good thing/why these people should be ashamed for being offended. If you for example told me that in the Netherlands, black skin and red lips are considered a honor/represent peace and royalty within your country and the redder the lips and the blacker the skin increases those positive traits, I'd be more willing to accept the majority is right in this situation and that the imagery isn't negative.

 

[Loofy]

Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with Americans. It is an element of Flemish/Dutch folklore, and confined to Flemish/Dutch society (+ a few former colonies).

So American opinion on this tradition has no bearing on whether or not this tradition is acceptable in our culture.

Ugandans dont think jailing gay people is anything to blink at but we non-ugandans can still have an opinion on it.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

And the Flemish/Dutch societies, separately, do not consider modern Zwarte Pieten as problematic. We removed the problematic parts and are now left with a cherished tradition.

What were the problematic parts that were removed?

 

[itsgreen]

Ugandans dont think jailing gay people is anything to blink at but we non-ugandans can still have an opinion on it.

Yes exactly the same thing!

Zwarte Piet is like jailing gay people. Lol.

Because jailing someone because of their sexual orientation is the same as a having a friendly character that dispenses presents and candy

 

[Metrotab]

I also want to clarify that I don't consider Belgium or the Netherlands racist/oppressive societies. I don't know nearly enough to even attempt to make that claim and honestly I have no reason to believe that they are.

That being said, is this Zwarte Piet discussion a political issue in Belgium and the Netherlands? HIn the US for example, this would be a social issue. There is no ban on using black face/minstrel shows in our country or any laws preventing it. If a television show or movie wanted to (and they still do) make a black faced character they would be free to do so, but they would generally receive a negative public backlash (most likely from a large group of black people) unless they had a good context for doing so.

Personally I believe this movement in the OP is going to grow vs shrink. You mentioned that the people complaining are a minority group within a small minority group. That itself is a problem IMO, because if the minority group was larger like it is in the US, I feel there would be more people complaining/joining in their cause because they'd feel more comfortable doing so.



Then explain to me why they are wrong for being offended? I and plenty others have explained why we view this character negatively from a number of view points and have offered suggestions as to how to solve this issue without damaging the character, but the most we've gotten is that we are from the US and wouldn't understand/how the character's origins have changed/how silly we all are for getting offended over a innocent children's character. These kinds of comments don't help to persuade anyone towards your argument.

And despite all of this I haven't seen a strong argument on why Zwarte Pieten's red lips, hair, and black skin are a good thing/why these people should be ashamed for being offended. If you for example told me that in the Netherlands, black skin and red lips are considered a honor/represent peace and royalty within your country and the redder the lips and the blacker the skin increases those positive traits, I'd be more willing to accept the majority is right in this situation and that the imagery isn't negative.

- No, it's not a political issue in the slightest. Not even ultra-progressive left-wing politicians bring it up. Zwarte Piet is not considered offensive.

- I didn't hear of any protests this year or attempts at changing Zwarte Piet, so whatever media interest they had, they seemed to have lost this year, if there were even any protests. (speaking for Belgium)

- They are not a 'good thing', they are simply elements of Zwarte Piet's look. Zwarte Piet looks like Zwarte Piet.

 

[Metrotab]

What were the problematic parts that were removed?

The history behind it. Zwarte Pieten are no longer black servants of the white, Catholic master.

 

[Metrotab]

Ugandans dont think jailing gay people is anything to blink at but we non-ugandans can still have an opinion on it.

That's because jailing gay people is an objectively oppressive policy.

Zwarte Piet is not oppressive, and hence not comparable at all.

 

[Goldrusher]

Its historically racist and more than a few dutch people find it racist.

44 people is "more than a few" ? We're talking about a population of 25 million.
And look at the stats. Nobody is giving the video any attention, and those who've seen it, dislike it.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

I wonder if Santa's elves have Irish roots..

 

[Arjen]

I finally found some use for this thread, great way to fill up my ignore list, because some of you are really obnoxious in the way you're discussing.

 

[Stet]

Well let's be frank for a minute then, because I don't see why anyone should be getting offended at anything in this discussion. An accusation that a tradition is racist is not a tacit accusation that the culture is racist as a whole, nor is it a tacit accusation that people who have celebrated that tradition in the past are racist -- so there shouldn't be any reason to get defensive.

 

[Dude Abides]

Assistants. Zwarte Piet is to Sinterklaas as an employee is to his boss.

A servant is an employee.

Seems like Zwarte Piet is similar to the Confederate Flag over here. A clear symbol of white supremacy that people think has been cleansed of that simply by declaring it so and that they don't understand it that way.

 

[Arjen]

Well let's be frank for a minute then, because I don't see why anyone should be getting offended at anything in this discussion. An accusation that a tradition is racist is not a tacit accusation that the culture is racist as a whole, nor is it a tacit accusation that people who have celebrated that tradition in the past are racist -- so there shouldn't be any reason to get defensive.

You...you..don't see why were getting defensive?
Our favourite holiday (on the same level as Christmas for American kids) is getting compared to hitler/saudi woman rights/ gay people being locked up.
Wow i wonder why we would get defensive over such an issue?
And instead of having a normal discussion like Log4Girlz for example, you think a healthy form of discusion is posting condecending remarks like this. (thanks for the previous poster who summed them up)

Not in this case. That's the major problem with systemic racism, I guess!

In some areas of Saudi, women are allowed to drive now. Problem solved!

All human life began in 2001. Nothing before existed!

 

[Metrotab]

A servant is an employee.

Seems like Zwarte Piet is similar to the Confederate Flag over here. A clear symbol of white supremacy that people think has been cleansed of that simply by declaring it so and that they don't understand it that way.

But the Confederate flag isn't universally 'cleansed' of its roots in US culture, right? People from the north and minorities still relate it to the Confederacy and its ideology, as far as I understand.

Meanwhile, Zwarte Piet is considered unoffensive in the whole sphere of Flemish and Dutch cultures, by politicians of every party and movement in two separate democracies.

 

[Stet]

You...you..don't see why were getting defensive?
Our favourite holiday (on the same level as Christmas for American kids) is getting compared to hitler/saudi woman rights/ gay people being locked up.
Wow i wonder why we would get defensive over such an issue?
And instead of having a normal discussion like Log4Girlz for example, you think a healthy form of discusion is posting condecending remarks like this. (thanks for the previous poster who summed them up)

None of those things were about Dutch society though. I don't get why people think that first comment is sarcastic. The big problem with systemic racism when it comes to traditions is that things don't get solved overnight.

The Saudi comment was about how one tiny band-aid solution isn't going to do the job at all, and the last comment was about how ignoring history doesn't do the tradition any favours.

I don't see how any of this has anything to do with calling you a racist.

 

[Arjen]

None of those things were about Dutch society though. I don't get why people think that first comment is sarcastic. The big problem with systemic racism when it comes to traditions is that things don't get solved overnight.

The Saudi comment was about how one tiny band-aid solution isn't going to do the job at all, and the last comment was about how ignoring history doesn't do the tradition any favours.

I don't see how any of this has anything to do with calling you a racist.

It's a horrible way of discussing things. Instead of explaining what you mean, you just post one quik short remark. It comes across as really condescending, at least to me.

 

[Dude Abides]

But the Confederate flag isn't universally 'cleansed' of its roots in US culture, right? People from the north and minorities still relate it to the Confederacy and its ideology, as far as I understand.

Meanwhile, Zwarte Piet is considered unoffensive in the whole sphere of Flemish and Dutch cultures, by politicians of every party and movement in two separate democracies.

The notion that whether something can be considered racist depends solely on the number of people who dislike it, to the exclusion of anything else,it is odd to me.

 

[Half and half]

The comparison to the Confederate flag is an interesting one. I understand how and why it's seen as a symbol of racism, but I also understand it represents Southern Pride as well.

I'd be okay if it was used in some form of traditional ceremony. Well provided the ceremony was all inclusive, heh. Same with Zwarte Piet.

 

[Metrotab]

The notion that whether something can be considered racist depends solely on the number of people who dislike it, to the exclusion of anything else,it is odd to me.

How can something be offensive if two entirely separate societies, with their own cultural, political and social spheres, both liberal democracies, the only societies who incorporate the folkloristic element in question, don't consider it offensive?

The bizarre notion to me in this thread is that external, shallow understanding of our folklore trumps internal understanding. The connotations with blackface in American entertainment seem to be more important than the earnest erosion of racial origin in the tradition.

 

[Xeke]

How can something be offensive if two entirely separate societies, with their own cultural, political and social spheres, both liberal democracies, the only societies who incorporate the folkloristic element in question, don't consider it offensive?

The bizarre notion to me in this thread is that external, shallow understanding of our folklore trumps internal understanding.

The majority isn't always right.

 

[itsgreen]

The majority isn't always right.

The minority isn't always right.

 

[Metrotab]

The majority isn't always right.

This statement is meaningless, since I can frame it likewise for the non-Flemish/Dutch majority vs the Flemish/Dutch minority about Zwarte Piet.

 

[deadhorse32]

If I may .... why no real black people ?

 

[Metrotab]

If I may .... why no real black people ?

The act of dressing up as Zwarte Piet is part of the tradition too. It would be kinda nonsensical to decree white Flemish/Dutch people can't play Zwarte Piet anymore.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

If I may .... why no real black people ?

There are black people who dress up as zwarte piet. Though the majority of the zwartie pieten are white.

 

[PolarBearsClub]

How can something be offensive if two entirely separate societies, with their own cultural, political and social spheres, both liberal democracies, the only societies who incorporate the folkloristic element in question, don't consider it offensive?

The bizarre notion to me in this thread is that external, shallow understanding of our folklore trumps internal understanding.

As an American, I have nothing at all to lose by finding Zwarte Piete offensive. Those who live in cultures that celebrate Sinterklaas are emotionally invested in this character. If I say it's racist, then that would mean that I'd be calling you or all of Netherlands racist. That obviously isn't true.

Maybe this character isn't born of hatred, but my feeling is that it is born of ignorance. It is a holiday that perpetuates a bad stereotype. If you think minorities are a-ok with caricatures that paint them as just a skin color and a servile attitude, well, alright then. By all means, love and celebrate your folklore but don't pretend that those who are offended would be any less offended if we took several colleges courses on Dutch folklore.

And to be clear, I think many facets of American culture also do nasty things to perpetuate negative minority stereotypes.

Anyway I've argued enough about this subject during my time here at gaf. Sorry if I offended any euro gaffers. I wish I understood this matter more, I really do.

 

[Wazzim]

If I may .... why no real black people ?

That would be racist.

 

[Kite]

PETA status.. I am a firm believer in stamping out racism (being a minority in Texas will do that for ya), but all this time and effort into fighting.. this? Stop embarrassing me. How racist!

 

[Metrotab]

As an American, I have nothing at all to lose by finding Zwarte Piete offensive. Those who live in cultures that celebrate Sinterklaas are emotionally invested in this character. If I say it's racist, then that would mean that I'd be calling you or all of Netherlands racist. That obviously isn't true.

Maybe this character isn't born of hatred, but my feeling is that it is born of ignorance. It is a holiday that perpetuates a bad stereotype. If you think minorities are a-ok with caricatures that paint them as just a skin color and a servile attitude, well, alright then. By all means, love and celebrate your folklore but don't pretend that those who are offended would be any less offended if we took several colleges courses on Dutch folklore.

And to be clear, I think many facets of American culture also do nasty things to perpetuate negative minority stereotypes.

Anyway I've argued enough about this subject during my time here at gaf. Sorry if I offended any euro gaffers. I wish I understood this matter more, I really do.

They're not caricatures of black people anymore. They have become a separate Platonic idea. And the minorities understand that and participate with the Platonic idea as well, as it is a joyous fest with lots of fun, for kids of all races.

And the servile attitude doesn't exist. Zwarte Pieten get respect from Sinterklaas and are his equals, they're in a vague-business of delivering presents together, and Pieten have their own tasks such as transport and what not, with Sinterklaas being the boss. Often there's a Head Piet who acts like Sinterklaas' right hand man and runs the operations, helping old Sinterklaas. At Antwerp City Hall, where Sinterklaas gave a speech, Head Piet had to correct Sinterklaas because he misread his book.

 

[Htown]

PETA status.. I am a firm believer in stamping out racism (being a minority in Texas will do that for ya), but all this time and effort into fighting.. this? Stop embarrassing me.

I'm a minority in Texas too.

Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.

 

[Metrotab]

I'm a minority in Texas too.

Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.

I find describing Zwarte Piet as an injustice offensive. Flemish and Dutch people do nothing wrong by celebrating Sinterklaas.

 

[Supermanisdead]

They're not caricatures of black people anymore.

You keep saying that, but it's just not true. Darkened skin, red lips, afro wig = blackface = caricature. You are arguing from a faulty definition of what makes caricature and no amount of repetition will make it different.

 

[Metrotab]

You keep saying that, but it's just not true. Darkened skin, red lips, afro wig = blackface = caricature. You are arguing from a faulty definition of what makes caricature and no amount of repetition will make it different.

A caricature is a stereotyped representation, often to denigrate or mock.

Zwarte Pieten are archetyped, as folklore tends to be. But they do not represent black people anymore. They do not serve as a denigration for black Flemish/Dutch people. They do not serve to mock them.

They are 'just' Zwarte Pieten, to everyone who lives in Flanders and the Netherlands.

 

[zaxon]

Out of curiosity, how many Americans who feel the character should be changed also feel that the content of urban black rap music should be judged and dictated by the standards of the white majority? After all, glorification of misogyny, violence, and crime are offensive and never ok, yes?

Should Ice T have changed "Cop Killer" to appease critics who didn't understand the song's meaning? Even though he claimed the song was a protest and not actually advocating the murder of police, he should change it anyway because by some people's standards it doesn't matter and is never ok? What's wrong with just changing the words to "I'm slightly disgruntled about police brutality" so old white people don't have to be offended? That's all part of a tolerant and just society, no?

We fight back against racism because it causes harm to society, not simply because it exists and we don't like it. What actual harm is Zwarte Piet causing? What division and hatred is it contributing to, what discrimination is it informing? I don't think anyone has really given any such answers; it's only "well, this type of thing is offensive" and "look at these other examples where similar things DID hurt people." That doesn't cut it. If you want people to change something that they genuinely cherish, you need very concrete reasons that NOT changing is harmful to someone, something, anything.

The best argument this debate has produced is "it wouldn't hurt to change it, so why not?" No, it wouldn't hurt. But I can't see what it would help, either, other than making a few people who are tilting at windmills feel like they "won" something.

 

[Kite]

Move over Netherlands and Belgium, ya'll got some competition from the far east.

 

[kingkitty]

entertaining thread. But as an outsider, I think it would be better to put on less black makeup. You can make your makeup look more realistic and actually seem like someone went down a chimney. That's less money spent at the makeup aisle and more money put towards more realistic looking afros.

Also ditch the red lipstick, bam, you just saved money on lipstick. Instead put some black makeup on your lips, since that would probably be the realistic aftermath of going down a chimney, instead of coming out with pulsing red lips.

Of course this tradition started with racisty overtones, and a modern iteration has pushed away the racist views away from the mascot. But maybe it's time a more economical third iteration that also pushes away the racist imagery.

Or better yet don't half ass it with a "went down a chimney" excuse, since the imagery doesn't make sense with that reasoning. Take it full on, call them black servants, embrace tradition, I'm sure children wouldn't care either way.

 

[Metrotab]

This is gonna be my (give or take) last post in this thread. Tomorrow another week starts and I won't have time to follow up on everyone's arguments anymore. So I'll leave that to others, if they're willing.

If you collect all my posts, I think you'll find a good, complete overview of how Zwarte Piet is positioned and considered in Flemish society, and Dutch society by proxy, and why our society doesn't think of it as offensive. I have tried to be clear in my terminology, and to answer to all different kinds of arguments in a consistent, courteous, informative manner.

It is fine if you disagree with my position. But I hope everyone who followed along, now knows more about Zwarte Piet than before, and has a more nuanced understanding of this particular part of a cherished folklore festivity. If I succeeded in that, I'm happy.

It was a very fun and entertaining debate, I do not regret investing the time into it.

See you next year.

EDIT: Oh, and happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Metrotab]

One last to finish it off:

entertaining thread. But as an outsider, I think it would be better to put on less black makeup. You can make your makeup look more realistic and actually seem like someone went down a chimney. That's less money spent at the makeup aisle and more money put towards more realistic looking afros.

Also ditch the red lipstick, bam, you just saved money on lipstick. Instead put some black makeup on your lips, since that would probably be the realistic aftermath of going down a chimney, instead of coming out with pulsing red lips.

Of course this tradition started with racisty overtones, and a modern iteration has pushed away the racist views away from the mascot. But maybe it's time a more economical third iteration that also pushes away the racist imagery.

Or better yet don't half ass it with a "went down a chimney" excuse, since the imagery doesn't make sense with that reasoning. Take it full on, call them black servants, embrace tradition, I'm sure children wouldn't care either way.

Your ideas seem very logical. But folklore isn't very logical by its nature.

The reason why we don't change the look of Zwarte Pieten is because our societies don't perceive a need to change the look. On the other hand, the current look is symbolic of the Zwarte Piet character, which forms the motivation to keep the status quo.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Out of curiosity, how many Americans who feel the character should be changed also feel that the content of urban black rap music should be judged and dictated by the standards of the white majority? After all, glorification of misogyny, violence, and crime are offensive and never ok, yes?

Should Ice T have changed "Cop Killer" to appease critics who didn't understand the song's meaning? Even though he claimed the song was a protest and not actually advocating the murder of police, he should change it anyway because by some people's standards it doesn't matter and is never ok? What's wrong with just changing the words to "I'm slightly disgruntled about police brutality" so old white people don't have to be offended? That's all part of a tolerant and just society, no?

We fight back against racism because it causes harm to society, not simply because it exists and we don't like it. What actual harm is Zwarte Piet causing? What division and hatred is it contributing to, what discrimination is it informing? I don't think anyone has really given any such answers; it's only "well, this type of thing is offensive" and "look at these other examples where similar things DID hurt people." That doesn't cut it. If you want people to change something that they genuinely cherish, you need very concrete reasons that NOT changing is harmful to someone, something, anything.

The best argument this debate has produced is "it wouldn't hurt to change it, so why not?" No, it wouldn't hurt. But I can't see what it would help, either, other than making a few people who are tilting at windmills feel like they "won" something.

NOT ALL PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD COMPLAINING ARE AMERICANS. I swear the amount of ignorant posts that go "LULZ AMERICUHCANS" when the people arguing aren't even american is ridiculous in threads like this. We get it, you think americans suck and project that people you don't agree with are americans.

 

[Fusebox]

Dark Elf cosplay. Racist or okay?

 

[Byakuya769]

One last to finish it off:



Your ideas seem very logical. But folklore isn't very logical by its nature.

The reason why we don't change the look of Zwarte Pieten is because our societies don't perceive a need to change the look. On the other hand, the current look is symbolic of the Zwarte Piet character, which forms the motivation to keep the status quo.

Inception.

 

[Stet]

Move over Netherlands and Belgium, ya'll got some competition from the far east.

You really don't understand the difference between blackened faces and blackface?

 

[zaxon]

NOT ALL PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD COMPLAINING ARE AMERICANS. I swear the amount of ignorant posts that go "LULZ AMERICUHCANS" when the people arguing aren't even american is ridiculous in threads like this. We get it, you think americans suck and project that people you don't agree with are americans.

What? I'm American. The parallel I tried to draw was one that was relevant to an American point of view, so that is who it was directed at. The point applies to anyone, but I'm not sure how familiar "Cop Killer" and American attitudes towards gangsta rap are outside of America.