Two different cultures in two different nations, with a practically unanimous shared cultural understanding of Zwarte Piet.
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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
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Two different cultures in two different nations, with a practically unanimous shared cultural understanding of Zwarte Piet.
So good icons can turn bad, but bad icons can't turn good?
Of course both are possible with acknowledging its past.
Not in this case. That's the major problem with systemic racism, I guess!
Flemish/Dutch society disagrees. From our perspective, we succesfully eroded the racism of Zwarte Piet.
And you know this because you are Dutch, an cultural anthropologist and have experienced the Sinterklaas festivities for a number of years...
In some areas of Saudi, women are allowed to drive now. Problem solved!
Saudi culture explicitly states inequality between men and women (at least, I think so).
Modern Zwarte Piet has no ties to any racial ideology whatsoever.
Not quite the same though is it. Saudi woman aren't treated as equals while Zwarte Piet is.
All human life began in 2001. Nothing before existed!
We recognise it existed. Then we threw it in the trash bin.
What is left is a cherished tradition full of happiness, enjoyed by children (and adults in a nostalgic manner) of all races.
Is it your shtick to write a sarcastic comment followed by an exclamation mark?
Supermanisdead
Member
What's left is the blatant racist imagery. But it's just soot and a bad case of allergies right?
That first comment isn't sarcastic. At all.
Most people within the Flemish/Duch societies, not all, hence the movement.
Are YOU thick? We just had this discussion about your horrible usage of 1:1 comparisons pages ago! Stop doing this shit, it just makes you look bad. You know how we prove/go after minority groups who want to do the things you just listed as wrong/being on the wrong side? We go after them with facts and prove why and how they are wrong overwhelmingly so that they no longer have an argument.
That last sentence is what you STILL are not doing. Why is it necessary for Zwarte Pieten to have black wooly hair, black skin, and red lips? Why was this movement that happened in 2007 wrong:
And why are the people who are offended wrong for being offended/not wanting to be confused with this character by children? Why would changing the way this character looks be the equivalent of Shira Law, killing people, wanting to ban women's rights?
The only decent answer for this question I've gotten is from Metrotab, who said Black is in the character's name. But IMO, this isn't a good enough reason for why the character can't be changed, even if it's just his lips and hair colors, so that he can't be confused with a black caricature.
If all you have to say after all this time is "You're an US citizen, you wouldn't understand" then we have nothing further to discuss.
Ok let's play that game. Why is it bad that Zwarte Piet is black and why should it be banned? How is he being treated or behaving racist? And lets play this game in Dutch culture not American. You know, the culture where blackface isn't frowned upon and used to make fun, denigrate black people. The culture where there weren't mass amount of slaves. The culture that didn't have special areas for blacks not too long ago. The culture where it seem still a decent amount of hate exists between races. The culture where the chances of black people are significantly better to find work....
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
Why was this movement that happened in 2007 wrong:
because nobody wanted it. everybody went 'uhhh.... that's shit' including all the black people that the tv host went round interviewing.
this issue is GREAT. I mean, is anyone who thinks it's racist going to change their mind?
I'm from NZ and live in NL now, we had 'gollywogs' in New Zealand when I was young and that got BANNED just like it did in England, was pretty shocked when I first came here and saw the blackface thing going on. I kind of agree that it's not racist now. I mean, nobody gives a shit here about it. It's just a fun thing for kids to go do. I like to tell dutch people how racist it is for a laugh sometimes, just to stir up some controversy, but nobody cares.
Half and half
Member
In the U.S., a lot of people call health insurance for all and basic safety nets a gift to minorities from Obama Claus!
A minority within a minority, with no political traction in 2 countries where there are several progressive politicians who care about minority representation in the media.
We don't recognise the imagery as racist because the imagery no longer involves the representation of another race.
Tolerance, happiness, and love. Everything I joined the fight against racism to help combat.
Women not being allowed to show their skin is a repression of freedom. If you support freedom, you cannot support that. Zwarte Piet is a character in a traditional celebration that does not contribute (as best I can tell) to discrimination or repression of any freedoms. It is merely "distasteful" by your particular standards, because you associate it with something that does discriminate and repress freedom.
They're not changing it for the same reason you wouldn't buy a new pair of shoes if someone walked up to you and told you they were offended by rubber, particularly if you've been wearing the same kind of shoes for your entire life and quite liked them.
Just because they've invented an excuse doesn't mean it's not a caricature of another race...
Supermanisdead
Member
You might not recognize it, but it's still there and it's still obvious.
Nobody in Flemish/Dutch society considers Zwarte Piet a representation of black people anymore. The racial dimension is completely lost. And with it, the offending nature.
Zwarte Piet is now 'just' Zwarte Piet.
Not to two different cultures in two different countries. To them, the outfit is the representation of the Platonic idea of modern Zwarte Piet.
dragonelite
Member
Just accepted it man we dutch and flemish people are racist for 18 days every year and most of us enjoy it.
Even the people we try to be racist against are having fun out of this holiday period.
If you're dedicated to saving the image of Piet and you really do subscribe to this soot theory, then remove the big red lips and the afro. What's wrong with that?
It's definitely enjoyable. Speculoos is the best part of it all.
Nothing, but in Flemish/Dutch society it's not considered wrong to preserve those features of Zwarte Piet either. Because that's how Zwarte Piet looks like.
I don't understand the clinging to one part of tradition but willingness to let another part of tradition go so easily. The story is okay to change, but not the image?
And why should we change that when foreigners who have never experienced it and a very small minority of a minority is upset...? A minority that everybody basically agrees, even the overwhelming majority of black people is wrong and oversensitive...
Because Flemish/Dutch society considers, rightfully, the history of the tradition to be offensive. So we discard it and keep it confined to the history books.
Flemish/Dutch society does not consider the imagery itself to be offensive, but considers the imagery iconic of Zwarte Piet. Since there is no momentum to change the imagery from within Flemish/Dutch society itself, Zwarte Piet doesn't change.
Always-honest
Banned
That's not true. Not nobody. There aren't many though.
Also, lots of kids, in their complete innocence, sometimes call black people "zwarte piet"... Them awkward moments...
. I'm sure parents will recognise thisThat's not true. Not nobody. There aren't many though.
Also, lots of kids, in their complete innocence, sometimes call black people "zwarte piet"... Them awkward moments...
At least not enough to cause any political momentum. If there were legitimate grievances about Zwarte Piet, there would be several politicians willing to adjust it for the sake of minority representation.
To be fair, the Dutch began the slave trade from Africa to the Americas.
And lets ask Muslims if the Netherlands is a racial utopia, where non-European heritage is an attribute of little to no importance. Where people like Geert Wilders and Pim Fortuyn weren't rewarded a legitimate platform within political discourse.
That's a whole other discussion, since this involves Islam, the rise of right-wing populism and several other facets.
It also has nothing to do with Zwarte Piet.
This is actually incorrect, Portugal was both the first and largest importer of African slaves into the Americas. Not that the Dutch didn't have incredible amounts of blood on their hands, but due to relatively limited colonial holdings in the Americas, major competition from other nations, and the inability to turn the same profit on the slave trade that other nations could, Dutch merchants never imported as many as the Portuguese, British, French or Spanish.
Indeed. This image some people try to conjure up of some post-racial society is rather far from reality.
but to be just as fair, which sounds really weird and wrong when you are talking about slaves, we didn't bring them here. At least not in any comparable figures as America. So that isn't part of our cultural experiences
I'm Dutch, but "persoon van kleur" of "kleuring" sounds pretty akward as well. Honestly the best way to refer a black man in the Netherlands is just assume that he is from the Surinames and call him "Surinamer". If you don't know the exact origin.
That seems to be the police description, but that pretty much describes everyone not white.
Kleurlingen is pretty common here. Or "neger" but that is getting awkward as well.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the Dutch were largely responsible for transporting slaves to North America, sans Central America, and were the first to do so. The Dutch West India Company to be specific.
He is right. Though I think it was the Spanish who started the transatlantic slave trade, the Dutch never managed to find great profit in it. Keep in mind that after 1700 the Dutch only held a few small islands in the West Indies and Guyana/Suriname; not nearly as large a market as the Spanish, Portuguese and English had for their slave trade.
krypt0nian
Banned
This strikes me as similar to those in America's South and their odd justifications for the rebel flag.
This all comes down to that the black face characters in this dutch tradition are not in a position of power. They are the servants who have to follow their white master as uncomfortable as it is for dutch people to realize. Maybe if the roles were switched and the santa claus character had black face and the servants were white, people wouldn't be making such a big deal about it.
Borrowing one of of itsgreen's comparisons for a minute, if you went to a country where women had their rights repressed and their was no movement by women or anyone else in the country to give women equal rights and everyone was fine with it except for maybe 10 people, would you personally be ok with the oppression or would you still think it's wrong? Not necesssarily saying you'd go out and protest/voice your disapproval, vs just not thinking this is acceptable/hoping that some day the people may change their stance?
I'm going to respond to this with a portion of zaxon's post. If you need me to come back and address these questions individually, let me know and I'll address each one:
I actually have yet to express my own opinion on Zwarte Pieten's looks vs just echoing that the movement in the OP doesn't like the character and should be addressed, but it's probably time I do so to stop this line of thinking going forward (or at least allow myself to just quote this post in responses going forward). The problem I have with Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with discrimination or repressing freedoms. It has nothing to do with slavery/racism in the US/or bigotry/minstrel shows/chucking and jiving/or anything else you've seen in US media. As many have said, the character Zwarte Pieten has changed, his negative history/origin story has been changed and most children in the country no longer know about this negative history and in general, Zwarte Pieten is a "good guy". I have no issues with this change and am not trying to argue that Zwarte Pieten performs racist/discriminatory actions.
My issue is the issue from this article, illustrated by this quote:
Zwarte Pieten is a black caricature. Not because of his actions or associations with history/racism in the US, but because of how he exaggerates/foolishly portrays particular features of black ethnic groups. Particularly lips, skin, and hair. THIS is an insult all by itself, no context needed. This isn't a character that LOOKS positive. For example, I'm sure you wouldn't want children confusing you with a Smurf as you walk down the street on a daily basis, despite how "positive" they are. These children aren't confusing the black people in this article with Idris Elba, or Gabriel Union, or Denzel Washington or some other physically attractive black celebrity like so many of in this thread would have you believe, but a black skinned Christmas clown! And it's not just one very dark skinned black person, it's the entire group protesting (and probably more that are "ok" with it). That's how caricatures work and why most minority groups do not like them regardless of their country of origin. Here in the US we used to show asian people in older cartoons with slanted barely open eyes, yellowish skin, and bad accents (maybe bad teeth). These characters would range from evil to good. But it didn't matter because these were negative portrayals physically for Asian people and in general we don't use them anymore. There was no slavery going on in the US for Asian people, we just recognized that the imagery was bad.
If I was around someone that was complaining often enough that I couldn't avoid them seeing my shoes being rubber, I'd ask them for an alternative and going forward I would wear those shoes around them so that I wouldn't offend them going forward. As long as the change wasn't doing me or anyone else harm, I don't see it as an unreasonable request.
Black people are people, not a hive mind. If a couple of black people like/don't like something, it doesn't mean it's ok/not ok. Again with the bad 1:1 comparisons, but here in the US we had black people who fought to keep slavery. Regardless we should be discussing why Zwarte Pieten isn't ok or is, not counting how many black people like this and how many do not.
Always-honest
Banned
I'm under the impression that most just don't want to make a big deal out of it. Because of the dutch traditions.
Just because they are a minority, doesn't mean they're wrong. I think they are right in being offended personally. Eventhough i know the Dutch have no racist intendtions with the zwarte pieten.
Why are you grabbing every straw to indicate that a minority might be right, but refusing every possibility the minority could be wrong.
Those countries are oppressive theocracies however. Belgium and the Netherlands are open democracies with a good track record on human rights and respect for minority groups, with sufficient democratic channels to air grievances. In neither of these countries, which have separate political cultures and separate political channels, is Zwarte Piet a political issue. Minority representation is not ignored in either country, there are many politicians who have taken up that cause. Yet they ignore Zwarte Piet, despite its yearly return or its important place in our folklore and culture.
So we can rightfully conclude that in the democratic spheres of Belgian (Flemish) and Dutch society Zwarte Piet is not considered offensive, or part of an outdated racial ideology, hence unbefitting of a modern democratic nation.
Assistants. Zwarte Piet is to Sinterklaas as an employee is to his boss.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
Back off, you couldn't be more off. You don't have any clue how we celebrate the tradition and what the relationship between the Pieten and Siterklaas is. The Pieten get lots of respect from Sinterklaas. Also, the fiction in Holland is that every Piet is a specialist. For example, we have a Music Piet, Cool Piet, Chef Cook piet and whatnot. There is no master/ slave relationship in the holiday we celebrate and honestly I'm starting to get offended by the ignorant remarks in this thread filled with stubbern people who would see a picture of a black kid eating a watermelon as racist.
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