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[Metrotab]

You're not being policed. We're just suggesting that you make a few additional changes so your beloved character doesn't look like a Little Black Sambo ripoff any longer. You're free to keep your racist depiction of this character, but don't be shocked and offended when people point out that it is pretty obviously racist.

Seeing a cherished tradition get called racist over and over again without reason, seeing it compared to slavery/jailing of gay people/oppressing women, to the point of it being called 'injustice', seems like policing to me. You are judging a part of our culture. No one does anything wrong dressing up as Zwarte Piet and celebrating Sinterklaas.

Absolutely no one.

 

[Jackben]

No one does anything wrong dressing up as Zwarte Piet and celebrating Sinterklaas.

Absolutely no one.

Sure, as long as you don't consider racist and debasing mascots wrong.

Also:

This is gonna be my last post in this thread.

This was a very fun and entertaining debate, I do not regret investing the time into it.

See you next year.

One last to finish it off

 

[Metrotab]

Sure, as long as you don't consider racist and debasing mascots wrong.

Also:

Only one new page. Easily read during this pre-dinner break.

The debate seems to have shifted to the N-word though, which I have no interest in, so you won't find me in that tangent.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Consistency would mean you are either OK with the words or you aren't. I sorta understand why young Black Americans use the word, but from a neutral outsider perspective(who doesn't know the history) it's a really odd distinction to make.

steadfast adherence to the same principles, course, form, etc.: There is consistency in his pattern of behavior.

you defined the principle in one line. you words. it is consistent. you may not agree with the form of the consistency, but there is a pattern.

agreement, harmony, or compatibility, especially correspondence or uniformity among the parts of a complex thing: consistency of colors throughout the house.

seriously, why would you even argue against the consistency in the acceptable usage?

 

[MMaRsu]

Either way Zwarte Piet these days isn't racist anymore so why take offense to it? Seeing as most black people/kids are okay with it and even like Zwarte Piet.

I know this tradition may be hard to understand, but like stated earlier it's not doing anybody any harm.

I know y'all wont budge on any of this but hey those are my 5 cents.

 

[2San]

you defined the principle in one line. you words. it is consistent. you may not agree with the form of the consistency, but there is a pattern.

I'm saying it doesn't look consistent from an outsider perspective. That you don't see the leaps of logic is pretty baffling to me. That you are somehow ok with it when you say it, but not ok when some else does. Is a leap of logic for me.

seriously, why would you even argue against the consistency in the acceptable usage?

It's the lack of consistency with the usage and meaning of the word is exactly what causes the confusion and controversy. If everyone used the word in a negative way. Non-black people wouldn't use the word in a positive way. If Non-black people used the word then it would clearly be racist. Now that isn't always case. Hence the prosecution of people who don't clearly understand the meaning of the word, is odd to me.

 

[Byakuya769]

There's no consistency at all. If you think rationally. If you call yourself something, is it weird that someone calls you that as well? How can you take a bad word and make it "positive", when you throw a fit when someone else calls you that?

"Man, I'm a fucking idiot."

"Hey, you're a fucking idiot."

Parse how that may be different?

 

[itsgreen]

"Man, I'm a fucking idiot."

"Hey, you're a fucking idiot."

Parse how that may be different?

A correct example would be:

"Hey, you fucking idiot."

"Hey, you fucking idiot."

 

[The Faceless Master]

I'm saying it doesn't look consistent from an outsider perspective. That you don't see the leaps of logic is pretty baffling to me. That you are somehow ok with it when you say it, but not ok when some else does. Is a leap of logic for me.

It's the lack of consistency with the usage and meaning of the word is exactly what causes the confusion and controversy. If everyone used the word in a negative way. Non-black people wouldn't use the word in a positive way. If Non-black people used the word then it would clearly be racist. Now that isn't always case. Hence the prosecution of people who don't clearly understand the meaning of the word, is odd to me.

you have consistently shown that the usage is consistent, yet you consistently try to argue against its consistence. strange.

 

[Byakuya769]

A correct example would be:

"Hey, you fucking idiot."

"Hey, you fucking idiot."

"If you call yourself something..." Please keep up.

 

[itsgreen]

nvm

 

[The Faceless Master]

A correct example would be:

"Hey, you fucking idiot."

"Hey, you fucking idiot."

earlier that thread...

How about just, don't ever use the N word.

I am uninformed, and foreign, why IS it ok for black people to call themselves nigga's?

confusing...

 

[2San]

you have consistently shown that the usage is consistent, yet you consistently try to argue against its consistence. strange.

I have constantly shown that it is inconsistent? Honestly stop playing these games and make your point.

"Man, I'm a fucking idiot."

"Hey, you're a fucking idiot."

Parse how that may be different?

Already addressed this earlier:

Yeah that is such a BS excuse of how Blacks shouldnt use the word themselves. I have a nickname that my close family call me. But I absolutely HATE it when others call me that.
Similarly i may call my girlfriend a pet name. but she would probably be offended if others called her by that moniker.

Similarly in Fraternities in the states, there are secrets words and names and handshakes but it is only appreciated when it comes from a member within that group. When outsiders do it, it is considered an offense.

If my best friend calls me an idiot the meaning of that word is COMPLETELY different then if a stranger calls me the same.

I'm simply pointing out the inconsistency. You aren't a public figure either. Rihanna is a public figure with influence on a lot of people including people with a different skin color. Because hey not all people are racist and might enjoy your music. You as a public figure use the word in public in a positive way and are surprised that others use the word in a positive way as well?

 

[The Faceless Master]

I have constantly shown that it is inconsistent? Honestly stop playing these games and make your point.

i've already made my point. you just don't get it.

Already addressed this earlier:

so don't say "i'm a fucking idiot" on twitter if you're 'a public figure with influence on a lot of people including people with a different skin color' is the precached adddressing? ok!

 

[2San]

i've already made my point. you just don't get it.

So what exactly does Rihanna mean when she calls herself and people she knows Nigger/Nigga? That's some legit self hate I guess.

so don't say "i'm a fucking idiot" on twitter if you're 'a public figure with influence on a lot of people including people with a different skin color' is the precached adddressing? ok!

Sure they can use it. If idiot keeps being used in a positive way sure, just don't act surprised when someone calls you idiot in a positive way as well! Context is important! Is the user trying to be nice or purposely trying to offend you. The meaning of words can never change! Ever!

Look I'm just saying Nigger/Nigga can be used both in a positive or negative way depending on how it's used, but the color of the skin of who says it shouldn't matter.

 

[The Faceless Master]

So what exactly does Rihanna mean when she calls herself and people she knows Nigger/Nigga? That's some legit self hate I guess.

Sure they can use it. If idiot keeps being used in a positive way sure, just don't act surprised when someone calls you idiot in a positive way as well! Context is important! Is the user trying to be nice or purposely trying to offend you. The meaning of words can never change! Ever!

Look I'm just saying Nigger/Nigga can be used both in a positive or negative way depending on how it's used, but the color of the skin of who says it shouldn't matter.

i agree that context matters. unfortunately, your lack of knowledge and/or understanding of the complex history of context surrounding the subject matter has negatively affected your ability to grasp the context of the issue. simply saying something shouldn't matter won't make it not matter.

 

[2San]

i agree that context matters. unfortunately, your lack of knowledge and/or understanding of the complex history of context surrounding the subject matter has negatively affected your ability to grasp the context of the issue. simply saying something shouldn't matter won't make it not matter.

Exactly! You get it, do you now understand why it makes no sense from an outsiders perspective. Hence it's stupid to blame a girl who's from a different country that never had a similar history for using "Niggerbitch" or call her racist. We have different histories hence our perception of what is deemed racist or wrong is different.

 

[Half and half]

Exactly! You get it, do you now understand why it makes no sense from an outsiders perspective. Hence it's stupid to blame a girl who's from a different country that never had a similar history for using "Niggerbitch" or call her racist. We have different histories hence our perception of what is deemed racist or wrong is different.

imo, we shouldn't crucify her. But we can groan and eye roll a bit.

 

[2San]

imo, we shouldn't crucify her. But we can groan and eye roll a bit.

Well she lost her job, with the help of Rihanna's rage. So there's that.

 

[Half and half]

Well she lost her job, with the help of Rihanna's rage. So there's that.

Yeah I know. I don't have a strong opinion either way on that.

 

[Ikael]

If my best friend calls me an idiot the meaning of that word is COMPLETELY different then if a stranger calls me the same.

I think that this reinforces the point that there is no "Inherently offensive" word, for it always comes down to its context and usage to determine whetever is offensive, even insults such as "idiot" can be said in a friendly way. What people is arguing here is that offense (even racial offense) is something wholly personal and culture dependant, and that this whole Zwarte Piet is a prime case of culture shock: what in the US was suppoused to represent a bad stereotype of black people being lazy and stupid, in Holland was used as a lovable christmas character that gives free candy to kids instead.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Exactly! You get it, do you now understand why it makes no sense from an outsiders perspective. Hence it's stupid to blame a girl who's from a different country that never had a similar history for using "Niggerbitch" or call her racist. We have different histories hence our perception of what is deemed racist or wrong is different.

you would think the standard for a journalist would be different than a regular girl. maybe not, i'm no journalist. plus, guess what i said back then...

 

[methane47]

I think that this reinforces the point that there is no "Inherently offensive" word, for it always comes down to its context and usage to determine whetever is offensive, even insults such as "idiot" can be said in a friendly way. What people is arguing here is that offense (even racial offense) is something wholly personal and culture dependant, and that this whole Zwarte Piet is a prime case of culture shock: what in the US was suppoused to represent a bad stereotype of black people being lazy and stupid, in Holland was used as a lovable christmas character that gives free candy to kids instead.

Ofcourse there is no "inherently offensive" word.

Zwarte Piet does not survive the acceptibilty of cultural norms though.
There are People INSIDE holland that are VERY offended by Zwarte Piet. Its not like, Oh here we shake hands with our left hand.
Zwarte piet is not a problem because Foreigners are offended. Its a problem because LOCAL, DUTCH, NEDERLANDERS are offended.
No culture shock.


This is FACT.

They are a minority but this does not mean their opinion means nothing.

Some dutch people just glaze over this fact like it doesn't exist.

They will say things like "Oh you are just american, you do not understand us"
or "Its just one guy that is overly sensitive"
or "Its friendly and the origins dont apply any more"

The fact is there are people STILL being offended INSIDE the European borders of Holland. Not just one or two, not 10 or 20... 10s of Thousands.

Does the white majority realize the fact that every year they are literally spitting in the face of 10s of thousands of people and then want the minorities to pretend that they should be happy about it?

 

[Y-Z]

Ofcourse there is no "inherently offensive" word.

Zwarte Piet does not survive the acceptibilty of cultural norms though.
There are People INSIDE holland that are VERY offended by Zwarte Piet. Its not like, Oh here we shake hands with our left hand.
Zwarte piet is not a problem because Foreigners are offended. Its a problem because LOCAL, DUTCH, NEDERLANDERS are offended.
No culture shock.


This is FACT.

They are a minority but this does not mean their opinion means nothing.

Some dutch people just glaze over this fact like it doesn't exist.

They will say things like "Oh you are just american, you do not understand us"
or "Its just one guy that is overly sensitive"
or "Its friendly and the origins dont apply any more"

The fact is there are people STILL being offended INSIDE the European borders of Holland. Not just one or two, not 10 or 20... 10s of Thousands.

Does the white majority realize the fact that every year they are literally spitting in the face of 10s of thousands of people and then want the minorities to pretend that they should be happy about it?

Not every voice is heard in a democracy. I'm sorry but thats just how it is. When there are so few people complaining there is no sense in changing a tradition.

There are propably people in America who don't like independence day, would you give in to their voice? There is a small group of people complaining afterall.

I think 0,0001% of the dutch people care about the issue.

 

[Onemic]

Not every voice is heard in a democracy. I'm sorry but thats just how it is. When there are so few people complaining there is no sense in changing a tradition.

There are propably people in America who don't like independence day, would you give in to their voice? There is a small group of people complaining afterall.

I think 0,0001% of the dutch people care about the issue.

How many minorities care about the issue?

 

[neorej]

How many minorities care about the issue?

None. It's actually the caucasians that care about this the most, make the most noise about it and publicly cry on TV over this. It's sad, really.

 

[soepje]

Here is a picture of todays pieten. See the hairstyles? It´s changed/changing. Also, they have red lips, but they are not made extra big or anything. Their look is slowly distancing itself from the original image. Slow is the key, because if it happens too sudden, there will be quite a lot of outraged people in our little country.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

I can't wait till Thanksgiving

 

[neorej]

Here is a picture of todays pieten. See the hairstyles? It´s changed/changing. Also, they have red lips, but they are not made extra big or anything. Their look is slowly distancing itself from the original image. Slow is the key, because if it happens too sudden, there will be quite a lot of outraged people in our little country.

looks like piet to the left of Sinterklaas is Wietpaspiet...

 

[soepje]

looks like piet to the left of Sinterklaas is Wietpaspiet...

Poor piet, i have some bad news for him..

 

[freenudemacusers]

Here is a picture of todays pieten. See the hairstyles? It´s changed/changing. Also, they have red lips, but they are not made extra big or anything. Their look is slowly distancing itself from the original image. Slow is the key, because if it happens too sudden, there will be quite a lot of outraged people in our little country.

Now I'm even more confused. Why is the image slowly changing when nobody sees it as racist or has any idea what blackface is.

 

[Half and half]

Is that gangstapiet in the green jumpsuit with the medallion?

 

[FillerB]

Now I'm even more confused. Why is the image slowly changing when nobody sees it as racist or has any idea what blackface is.

Because of the televised events promoting the idea of each Piet having their own specialization. And as you know, form follows function.

 

[Byakuya769]

Soepje was serious? That had to be a sarcastic post, it had to be!

 

[Enron]

ya'll chill out and have some hagelslag

 

[freenudemacusers]

Because of the televised events promoting the idea of each Piet having their own specialization. And as you know, form follows function.

Thats a strange way to interpret "Their look is slowly distancing itself from the original image"

 

[Goldrusher]

In Flanders we're actually going back to a more traditional look.

 

[Goldrusher]

ya'll chill out and have some hagelslag

Nah, cup cakes for everyone!

 

[Half and half]

How come some of them have the Portal leg braces? To see the crowds better?

edit:
lol goldrusher

 

[freenudemacusers]

In Flanders we're actually going back to a more traditional look.

I like this version of amistad more tbh

I am glad you went back to your blackface avatar. Sums it up quite well.

 

[FillerB]

Thats a strange way to interpret "Their look is slowly distancing itself from the original image"

Not really. The original image was more that of the anomynous helper or servant ("pieterknecht") and as such they all looked more or less the same as they were interchangeable. Which GAF will ofcourse interpreted as having them as slaves but should more seen as a butler. The modern image has them more as contractworkers. Each Piet has his own specific job (navigation, accountancy, taking care of the horse, comic relief) which makes for better television.

 

[soepje]

What FillerB said.

Is that gangstapiet in the green jumpsuit with the medallion?

No he is Talented/coole Piet, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnTZoq61Oc << that cool.

 

[Stet]

What FillerB said.


No he is Talented/coole Piet, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnTZoq61Oc << that cool.

I like his dreadlocks.

 

[Dude Abides]

I can't wait till Thanksgiving

You'll be disappointed since we don't incorporate a caricature of a Native American with painted red skin doing rain dances and war whoops.

 

[Half and half]

What FillerB said.


No he is Talented/coole Piet, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnTZoq61Oc << that cool.

I gotta be honest, I was really hoping this Piet could break dance lol

 

[Onemic]

Not really. The original image was more that of the anomynous helper or servant ("pieterknecht") and as such they all looked more or less the same as they were interchangeable. Which GAF will ofcourse interpreted as having them as slaves but should more seen as a butler. The modern image has them more as contractworkers. Each Piet has his own specific job (navigation, accountancy, taking care of the horse, comic relief) which makes for better television.

So what was Zwarte Piete's origin again? It seems like a lot of dutch posters like to make it look like Piete's origin wasn't caked in racist bigotry.

 

[FillerB]

You'll be disappointed since we don't incorporate a caricature of a Native American with painted red skin doing rain dances and war whoops.

Indeed. Those roles are solely reserved for your sports mascots. Instead you have a chain-gang of height-challenged child-like figures working in sweatshop conditions.

Honestly. Each culture has it own slightly wrong-looking traditions. People shouldn't make such a fuss about it.

So what was Zwarte Piete's origin again? It seems like a lot of dutch posters like to make it look like Piete's origin wasn't caked in racist bigotry.

As far as I know there is, as with many of these folks traditions, no single source of truth about where it came from. Some say it's a Christianization of the Norse "Wild Hunt of Wodan" tale with Moorish characters standing in for shackled "devils". Racist yes, but par for the course in that age. Others say it came from the real-life Sint Nicolaas who, according to legend, gave gifts and provided dowries for poor girls. The character of Zwarte Piet then, again, came from the Moors who where very prevalent in Spain around that time. I don't lend much credit to the first one as the germanic "Krampus" has more similarities with that.

 

[Onemic]

Indeed. Those roles are solely reserved for your sports mascots. Instead you have a chain-gang of height-challenged child-like figures working in sweatshop conditions.

Honestly. Each culture has it own slightly wrong-looking traditions. People shouldn't make such a fuss about it.

Only difference is we accept that it's a problem. You don't want to accept yours.

 

[Byakuya769]

Not really. The original image was more that of the anomynous helper or servant ("pieterknecht") and as such they all looked more or less the same as they were interchangeable. Which GAF will ofcourse interpreted as having them as slaves but should more seen as a butler. The modern image has them more as contractworkers. Each Piet has his own specific job (navigation, accountancy, taking care of the horse, comic relief) which makes for better television.

This typifies living in a bubble. "Contract workers": ah great, so you've gone from slave caricatures to caricatures of immigrant workers? Progress.

 

[Half and half]

Instead you have a chain-gang of height-challenged child-like figures working in sweatshop conditions.

That's an american horror story -> "How the Gingrich stole Christmas."