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[duckroll]

Ok, before I begin, I want to keep this thread as civil and objective as possible. If you want to just post something indicating Sony sucks or Sony rocks or XXXXX system sucks, this isn't the place. Thanks.

I was just thinking today that now would be a good time to look back at the PS2. We've seen FFXII in action, and DQ8, MGS3 and GT4 are all out now. How much has the PS2 gone since launch and how much of the initial promise of high graphical levels have been attained? I think it could make for excellent discussion to see how reality and hype differs and would give us a more realistic idea of expectations for the PS3 when the tech demos are eventually shown.

Feedback and corrections are welcome, I understand that not all pics are a fair comparison, some might have much more anti-aliasing for PR shots, etc. Feel free to post your own comparisons if you want to state of a point. I'm curious what most PS2 owners really feel at this point. I feel that the PS2 has pretty much delivered all that was promised and possibily more. The difference between now and the pre-launch tech demo being that we understand much more about realtime 3D usage now than before hence there is no longer a desire to aim for "FMV" style graphics.







Pre-launch Emotion Engine demo pics:

Launch window games:

First wave of major titles:

 

[duckroll]

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Now:

 

[TekunoRobby]

Nice thread idea.

I'd like to go ahead and toss in the fact that the emotion engine concept renders were primarily concentrated on rendering graphics. Meaning that it didn't include all the programming and CPU clout of a video game and it's assorted features (such as AI, physics, collision detection, sound, etc). So naturally they were very impressive and initial games managed to come close to their graphical quality.

Well atleast I'm pretty sure they were, did Sony ever do any promotional video showing a playable concept game?


On the topic of actual game progress, once thing is for sure, texture resolutions definitely got an upgrade.

 

[mr2mike]

One thing I do notice, or maybe it's just me, is that overall, polygon counts haven't increased all that much, what's gotten loads better though is that now they're pushing fancier effects and more textures.

 

[ourumov]

LOL at the evolution of IGN capturing system...That's the best you can see from those pics. Everybody with Gt3/RRV knows they look much better.

 

[duckroll]

One thing I do notice, or maybe it's just me, is that overall, polygon counts haven't increased all that much, what's gotten loads better though is that now they're pushing fancier effects and more textures.

While it varies from game to game, I definitely agree that the evolution of PS2 graphics has less to do with poly count and much more to do with learning to work around texture memory limitations and software anti-aliasing. Better texture detail, lightning, etc have definitely helped games look way better than they did previously.

 

[maskrider]

DQ8

SH:C

SMT3 (My angel is satisfied, ha ha)

 

[btrboyev]

its more of a testament to a few developers than the ps2 hardware itself. Imagine if SE, Konami, PD had as much dedication to GC or Xbox. There would be noticible difference.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Judging by the pics, the PS2 hasn't gained more knowledge since launch. Games doesn't look much better, perhaps intro's but not the games......

Technical parts aside, for the eye, Tekken Tag Tournament doesn't look much worse than soul calibur II.

 

[Andrew2]

I find it funny till this day people still think the Reiko,old man footage and FFVI was in-game when in fact the only thing Sony ever did was use those as exsamples to show the PS2's ability to CG video in real-time e.g. adding dynamic effects like complex lighting;something thats not possible in regular CG footage.

 

[Solid]

 

[Lord Error]

There would be noticible difference.

Difference to what? Xbox games made by teams that are already dedicated to it, such as Team Ninja or Bungee?

What are you even trying to say?

 

[btrboyev]

Is it that hard to understand what I'm getting across? Yeah teams like team ninja are doing on xbox what cannot be done on ps2 period. Where areas if SE made FF12 on GC it would no doubt look better on GC.than what they clould achieve on ps2..perhaps aside from CG.

 

[wazoo]

The hype was that the ps2 was a breakthrough tech.

The reality is that all three consoles, even the completely unhyped GC, are more or less on the same level.

So from this, you can throw away all ps3 hype and just decide that all 3 next consoles will be on par.

 

[duckroll]

But the point of this thread is to discuss the PS2 software evolution. It has nothing to do with the hardware being good or bad, if you want to talk about how much better developers would be making X-Box or GC games, go elsewhere please.

 

[zylo]

The hype was that the ps2 was a breakthrough tech.

The reality is that all three consoles, even the completely unhyped GC, are more or less on the same level.

So from this, you can throw away all ps3 hype and just decide that all 3 next consoles will be on par.

exactly

 

[Lord Error]

Is it that hard to understand what I'm getting across? Yeah teams like team ninja are doing on xbox what cannot be done on ps2 period. Where areas if SE made FF12 on GC it would no doubt look better on GC.than what they clould achieve on ps2..perhaps aside from CG.

How is what they could accomplish on XBox or GC even relevant to this thread? It's about what developers accomplished over the time on PS2.

And if you think they haven't accomplished and improved much (whatever reason being behind that improvement), you are terribly mistaken.

 

[Crispy]

Technical parts aside, for the eye, Tekken Tag Tournament doesn't look much worse than soul calibur II.

I'll admit TTT does look pretty good in those screenshots but playing the actual game is a different matter altogether, it certainly hasn't aged well!

 

[maskrider]

Tenchu 3

Tenchu Kurenai

Shadow Hearts

 

[btrboyev]

duckrolls point is taken.

 

[duckroll]

Tenchu 3

Tenchu Kurenai

Did Tenchu 3 and Kurenai run on the same engine? Those pics are strikingly similar (with Kurenai showing a little more detail except it could be the lighting too. -_-

 

[Ironclad]

Even though we can probably acredit the obvious advancements in the growth to the devs getting used to the PS2, art also has a lot to do with it. As the importance of better art increases, you can also see the software evolve.

 

[doncale]

correction: the Playstation2 technical demos used the entire PS2 chipset. the Emotion Engine plus the Graphics Synthesizer. not just the Emotion Engine. without the Graphics Synthesizer, the Emotion Engine wouldn't be able to produce these images. only calculate the geometry and lighting. the GS is needed to actually draw / render / display things onto a screen.

 

[maskrider]

Did Tenchu 3 and Kurenai run on the same engine? Those pics are strikingly similar (with Kurenai showing a little more detail except it could be the lighting too. -_-

Kurenai has more detailed model, and also lighting is better than 3. There are subtle animations on the characters that are not on 3.

 

[Warm Machine]

I think the biggest shift has to be lighting and frame buffer usage. Previously lighting was being baked into environments using older methods. Now we can use global illumination solutions to create the world lighting. Characters and vehicles have really benefitted from irradiance lighting as opposed to the old point light lookup method.

Depth of Field, bloom lighting, warping, as well as grain filters and other post processing technology has really helped games on any console look more modern from when they dirt debuted on current gen systems.

As far as straight out poly pushing only a few games out there seem to have smashed the doors open on the PS2. The Jak and Ratchet and Clank games are pusing horrendous amounts of stuff around on screen and is based around playing to the strengths and only the strengths of the machine and of the game concept.

Most other games evolution on the machine seem to be pretty linear from the original tech demos. Not that there hasn't been a change just that it is the expected change as opposed to a outright jump.

Stuff like the old man face was near useless as that is a case whereby it served almost no practical purpose to a developer.

 

[ourumov]

I am not a professional developer but those are the things that I would say were most used at the beginning:

-Relieve into massive polygonal power for creating games.
-Less atention to texture detail. (small texture pools on ram, or low quality ones).
-Low IQ, field rendering on most games.
-Quite a lot of effects that relieve on fillrate only.

Today:

-Full Frame Buffering to avoid aliasing artifacts.
-Use of textures that improve performance. 4/8 bit CLUT is much more efficient and allows for bigger samples.
-Use of the VU0 for more things
-Better usage of GS blending modes.

its more of a testament to a few developers than the ps2 hardware itself. Imagine if SE, Konami, PD had as much dedication to GC or Xbox. There would be noticible difference.

I doubt XBOX could replicate this...

 

[btrboyev]

why couldn't it? Xbox has vast superior lighting abilities and can push more geometry too boot.

 

[maskrider]

GT4

FF-X

 

[ourumov]

why couldn't it? Xbox has vast superior lighting abilities and can push more geometry too boot.

Yes, but fillrate sucks...and when having tons of particles on screen like ZOE 2...The system wouldn't be in it's best shape...
Anyways, the screen I choosed wasn't the adequate...I wanted to show tons of particles....
Xbox is a great system for a lot of things...but not for particles. Think in the tanker in MGS2...

 

[ge-man]

why couldn't it? Xbox has vast superior lighting abilities and can push more geometry too boot.

But what about the particle effects? ZOE 2 is no joke in that department.

 

[Miburou]

I think what's interesting is that the gap between the PS2 and GC/XB never shrank (or noticeably grew), and that the PS2's low embedded RAM continues to dog it.

 

[Kuroyume]

XBOX is capable of stuff prettier than ZOE like METAL WOLF CHAOS and OTOGI.

 

[duckroll]

GT4

FF-X

Whoa, awesome pics of GT4 there. Definitely better captures than IGN's pics. Thanks a lot. Btw, if it's not too much trouble do you have good pics of GT3 to compare? Thanks!

Oh and guys, stop comparing stuff with X-Box please? I'll be the first to admit that the X-Box is a more powerful machine and can have better looking games with less effort and more development ease but that's pretty irrelevent to what we're discussing here.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Oh and guys, stop comparing stuff with X-Box please? I'll be the first to admit that the X-Box is a more powerful machine and can have better looking games with less effort and more development ease but that's pretty irrelevent to what we're discussing here.

Yeah, definitely. Comparisons are moot and completely off the topic. This isn't a PS2-wank thread, it's analysis of how far it's come.

 

[maskrider]

RRV

 

[Littleberu]

XBOX is capable of stuff prettier than ZOE like METAL WOLF CHAOS and OTOGI.

Metal Wolf Chaos isn't a benchmark game by any means. It's pretty empty actually.

 

[TTP]

 

[Aizu_Itsuko]

I think these screens from the tech demos are more accurate, duckroll. The ones you posted seem blurry and are hiding some of the details:

Square demos:

For comparison purposes, The Bouncer (first gen game):

 

[TTP]

RRV

Which videcard are u using?

 

[Elios83]

I think PS2 is the console which has seen the biggest graphical improvements in its software with the time.
Anyway doing a comparison with screens could be misleading since many of them don't do justice to the games they represent.

 

[doncale]

I cannot wait to see Playstation3 demos in March and May ^__^

 

[Lord Error]

Aizu_Itsuko, thanks a lot for those pics. I've never seen them that detailed and in that resolution.

 

[duckroll]

Yeah I know my pics are pretty shabby, they're from Watch Impress. Funny thing was, I was reading the FFXII thread on 2ch when some guy linked that ancient FF8 dance pic for the fun of it and it got me thinking about how far the PS2 has really come as a machine from crazy tech demos to not to satisfying launch games to now. So I figured I would get the ball rolling.

I can see now what you mean by lost detail, but TTP's Silent Hill comparison is awesome too. It really shows that developers are trying much harder now to push the system, with hardware limitations and all. Oh and seriously maskrider, what the HELL kinda capture device do you have? If I ever get one, that'll be it, your pics look awesome.

 

[gofreak]

Aizu_Itsuko, thanks a lot for those pics. I've never seen them that detailed and in that resolution.

Ditto, I'd never seen these demos before at such resolution. Many thanks.

Those pics certainly reinforce the thinking that the demos weren't particularly removed from stuff we saw in games, even relatively early games. Typical PS2 IQ issues are certainly evident in those screens.

edit - WOAH. Looking at that hires GT demo pic, and comparing it to the shot in Edge, it's simply amazing how many flaws the magazine screens hid.

The good news re. PS3 demos is that we should have native res screens right from the start (well, now that we're in the broadband age ).

 

[maskrider]

TTP, I use a cheap Philips SAA7130 chip based PCTV card and DScaler.

GT3

GT4

 

[btrboyev]

it looks like the major difference in GT 3 and GT4 is lighting. But the car models alos look tweaked.

 

[jett]

RRV

:lol The hell? I am convinced you ran those two through a photoshop filter. Jeezus.

 

[duckroll]

RRV x GT3 x GT4 comparison:

The improvements in each game are not only in the lightning (GT4 lighting is amazing) but also in track detail and modeling. While GT3 and GT4 look similar in a certain aspect the car in GT4 looks far more realistic, tiny touches. Again, yes the lighting is godly.

 

[Gek54]

it looks like the major difference in GT 3 and GT4 is lighting. But the car models alos look tweaked.

Notice the ground textures and the fencing.

 

[maskrider]

Talk about 1st gen game, may be this is a forgotten one.

Driving Emotion Type-S

Bouncer