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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

I think even if the PC version gets the effects, don't expect that area to pitch dark like in the demo because that would be kind of a glaring gameplay change between console and pc.

Edit-Why are you people acting like the demo was showing off exactly how that area should be gameplay wise? Pretty sure they have done demos for souls with stuff tweaked before. No one lost their shit.

These aren't your average alpha-to-retail changes. This a complete 180 from their "redone lighting engine", "torches are super important in many regions", "it practically looks next-gen" previews. Lighting is severely nerfed to the point where the torches are mostly pointless. The torch mechanic is still there and the sconces are still there, but you don't need to use them at all and it's this awkward semi-vestigial feature. The detail and quality touted to be big new thing in DS2 is now completely gone.
 

Grief.exe

Member
To be honest..

If the lighting is such a big problem for you guys then just turn the brightness down. And if that doesn't make the levels pitch black just turn your TVs off. That way, you will experience the definitive version of Dark Souls 2.

Damage control level 12.

Damage Control Rising: Revengeance.

Honestly, there isn't much to damage control here. Consoles couldn't handle the effects at a stable frame rate. Just hoping many of them show back up for the PC version.

It was in the beta as well. How do you explain that?

People in this thread were saying the frame rate in the beta was all over the place.
 
What is really peculiar about all this is that in the retail version, when the Torch is activated, the lighting looks more like it should from the demo (but still a little washed out), but when the torch is off, it's apparent how bad things are. The torch isn't even required to advance in this section any more.

That's the kind of thing I'M wondering about; gameplay-effecting changes.

The PC delay may make more sense now...
 

AJLma

Member
Yeah but they've shown the game running on PS3 with the good lighting and the cloth physics with good performance so what we're wondering is, what the hell happened?



Thx. Updated comparison:

TGS 2013, same as PS3 January 2014:
finalbxzkxr.png


Retail build:
finala25kvb.png

Retail is more realistic.

A burning torch is going to light much more than 5-7 feet in front of you, as seen in the preview build.

Texture wise it looks similar enough.
 
To be fair, everything about that section was pretty damn cool.

Lighting (just in general walking around the area before the dark tunnel), darkness (switching up gameplay style to account for the necessity of the torch), effects (Specular, Mapping, etc), high-res textures, literally everything I just described has been completely stripped out. On top of that, the console version no longer can hold a solid frame rate that was reported in the demo.

Again, how can you explain all of this?

It was in the beta as well. How do you explain that?


Guys, what if (conspiracy level WHAT IF)

They stripped down all these graphic effects so they can sell a Definitive Version later this year on PS4/Xbone with all these "new" graphic enhancements?

This is Scamco we are talking about...
 

Grief.exe

Member
These aren't your average alpha-to-retail changes. This a complete 180 from their "redone lighting engine", "torches are super important in many regions", "it practically looks next-gen" previews. Lighting is severely nerfed to the point where the torches are mostly pointless. The torch mechanic is still there and the sconces are still there, but you don't need to use them at all and it's this awkward semi-vestigial feature. The detail and quality touted to be big new thing in DS2 is now completely gone.

You have to believe development of that lighting engine, placing the torches/sconces, creating the geometry/textures/animations, and programming that entire interaction was far from cheap.

Basically, the two questions I am dying to know the answer to. What happened to cause them to write off that investment last minute? Are these effects going to make a reappearance in the PC version?

Let alone the entire lighting engine looks to be revamped as well.
 
Damage Control Rising: Revengeance.

Honestly, there isn't much to damage control here. Consoles couldn't handle the effects at a stable frame rate. Just hoping many of them show back up for the PC version.



People in this thread were saying the frame rate in the beta was all over the place.

And the final version of DS2 is not the same?

I think its simply the case where one was a demo and another was the entire game. FROM either did not have the time/resources or could not achieve acceptable results.
 

RK9039

Member
Damage Control Rising: Revengeance.

Honestly, there isn't much to damage control here. Consoles couldn't handle the effects at a stable frame rate. Just hoping many of them show back up for the PC version.

I was just kidding lol.

I also hope the Aching Bones trailer was running on PC and that's how it will look like when it comes out. I'm definitely not picking the PS3 version up now.
 

Fbh

Member
What if all the extra effects were removed and are going to be patched in DAY 1 just to screw over pirates:

241px-Conspiracy-keanu.jpg
 

Havel

Member
1: Announce Dark Souls 2 for PS3/360/PC

2: Show footage of PS3 with new lighting engine.

3: Announce PS3/360 release dates

4: Say PC is coming "in March"

5: Further release footage with new lighting engine (Jan 2014)

6: Coming closer to release, realise frame dips too severe to maintain lighting throughout whole game.

7: Drop it at last second to increase FPS

8: PC version no longer for March, pushed back to the end of April to further optimise engine with new lighting to avoid same fate as consoles.
 

Curious_George

Neo Member
Or they may nor release the next-gen graphic upgrades for PC at all but only for PS4/XB1.

/tinfoil hat.

That'd be pretty hard to justify unless the PS4/XB1 stuff isn't for another year or two. A single patch could enable many of the features that are currently missing with the exception of level design or geometry changes.

Although the single fact that they still might do that is why I probably won't be pre-ordering for the PC now until I get more information.
 
1: Announce Dark Souls 2 for PS3/360/PC

2: Show footage of PS3 with new lighting engine.

3: Announce PS3/360 release dates

4: Say PC is coming "in March"

5: Further release footage with new lighting engine (Jan 2014)

6: Coming closer to release, realise frame dips too severe to maintain lighting throughout whole game.

7: Drop it at last second to increase FPS

8: PC version no longer for March, pushed back to the end of April to further optimise engine with new lighting to avoid same fate as consoles.

Nice optimism.

I hope the same, but I know is very unlikely.
 
Their art direction saves them. I love it. It's as close to Berserk as we've come in a game.

PC players shouldn't expect anything more than better textures and lighting. What the game desperately needs is more polygons. Things are so blocky and it stands out in many areas and many creatures. The simple geometry is further highlighted by the texture stretching and abrupt cutting. Whatever the tech terms are for that, I don't know.

Many environments are so simple and square. But once you've moved on from last gen, the graphical shortcomings are easier to spot. No surprises really. The PC version is what I wonder about because they could easily have used more complex geometry.

Their wonderful art overwhelms most of this anyway. I just wish they had higher poly models for the PC version. That is what would make a drool-inducing difference in the series.

I don't understand why they couldn't leave in the advanced models for the PC, and simply simplify them for the old consoles. Isn't that the work flow? Start with a high-poly model and simplify it until the console can run it? Surely they don't do it backwards? I'm just a fan from the outside of the industry looking in.
 
Anyone here get the guide early? Wondering it it makes any mention of having to light the torches to be able to see and what screenshots it uses.
 

koryuken

Member

Christ... not even based Durante can save this. Look at the missing cloth physics! (flag just staying there like a cardboard box) Look at the missing light sources on the pillars... I would love to know if this stuff is on PC or if they decided to pull it out of the game engine altogether. God, sometimes I hate this industry. How is this different from a bait and switch?
 

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
Bandai must have had HDMI inputs coming out of the wall or something, with an XMB skinned Windows 7 to fully cover their tracks. If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable...

This is Scamco we are talking about...

Seems plausible, above all else Bandai wants double dips.
.

huh... Why are you guys trying to blame only Namco for this do you really think that FROM is the innocent kid here?

From is the IP owners so they make the calls, they are also the developers so they made the downgrade and Namco can't force them if they don't want (again From is the own own the IP), they are also the publisher for the game in Japan so if this got gimped on purpose for other version then From hand is in this dishonest filth as well.
 
Honestly, what's up with this stream of downgrades? The next gen consoles didn't even look all that amazing compared to what we had on PC before IMO and even then there are downgrades. I suppose I can always look up to uncharted, infamous and order 1886 for eye candy. But severely disappointed as I was hoping dark souls 2 would look significantly better than the original.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
Christ... not even based Durante can save this. Look at the missing cloth physics! (flag just staying there like a cardboard box) Look at the missing light sources on the pillars... I would love to know if this stuff is on PC or if they decided to pull it out of the game engine altogether. God, sometimes I hate this industry. How is this different from a bait and switch?

It's at least a little different because you haven't paid for the game yet and can choose not to buy it based on this new information.

Still extremely disappointing. The graphics look so cheap and unconsidered. I wonder if all of the lighting had to be sacrificed for their dumb exaggerated cloth physics that are now on every single enemy. Just a bunch of monsters wearing trash bags.
 

soontroll

Banned
Retail is more realistic.

A burning torch is going to light much more than 5-7 feet in front of you, as seen in the preview build.

Texture wise it looks similar enough.

A yellow tint with constant brightness as distance increases is not realistic-looking lighting.
 
I guess I should be really pissed off with FROM / Bamco over this issue, I think it's probably due to me being in hype mode with the release coming up, plus the fact I've lifted my media blackout just toady which has been in effect for over a year, so I wasn't taken in by the better lighting engine.

Shame FROM isn't saying anything, I think they are gonna keep quiet and try and brush it under the carpet until after review day so it doesn't affect their marketing message. Maybe they are hoping all will be forgiven once everyone gets their pre orders.
 
Guys, remember when the devs talked about the candles in that Mirror Knight section lighting up according to other players dying in the world.
what if we are looking at the game running offline and then when it's connected(released day, servers kick in = more players etc) it looks more like the Demo? :p
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
huh... Why are you guys trying to blame only Namco for this do you really think that FROM is the innocent kid here?

From is the IP owners so they make the calls, they are also the developers so they made the downgrade and Namco can't force them if they don't want (again From is the own own the IP), they are also the publisher for the game in Japan so if this got gimped on purpose for other version then From hand is in this dishonest filth as well.

Not that I believe Scamco's at fault here as I haven't been following the situation, but From owning the IP just means that Scamco can't use the Dark Souls brand as it desires; as Scamco is footing the bill for the game's development it has the final say on any related matters. The most recent example of a publisher exerting power over an IP-owning developer would be EA going behind Respawn's back to strike a deal with Microsoft and making Titanfall exclusive to the X1/X360 on the console side.
 

Gbraga

Member

Well, at least we have something to look forward to.

Guys, remember when the devs talked about the candles in that Mirror Knight section lighting up according to other players dying in the world.
what if we are looking at the game running offline and then when it's connected(released day, servers kick in = more players etc) it looks more like the Demo? :p

Yeeeeaaaah, not holding my breath.

It would be pretty awesome though.
 
I hope ENB has that video ready. I'm going to F5 his YouTube page at 9am tomorrow. Sounds like he's aware, and prepared to give some reasoning. I really respect his opinion.
 
What im guessing is that at some point, they extracted a "slice" of the game to a different build.

Then a team at FROM worked on that Demo build while the rest kept working on the main game, at this point, both versions were missing the stuff missing from the retail version.

The team working on the Demo build, added tons of details, and activated the lightning/shadowing stuff from their new engine, made it stable and finalized worked on it to be showed to the press.

But that stuff never made it back to the Retail "branch" if you will, for some or other reason, maybe that team came back to optimize code, or finish other areas, etc.

Its the only reason that makes sense to me, because what artist would knowingly take out some of the stuff the GIFs in the previous pages show, stuff like the water splash of the boss when he jumps, how expensive can that be?

Also worthy to note that they made this in the past, The Painted World of Ariamis in Dark Souls 1 has tons of minute details that arent so prevalent in the rest of the game, because that was the first area they made, so it was kind of a tech demo/playing ground for testing gameplay and the engine.

Fuck You Vertical Slices!
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Guys, remember when the devs talked about the candles in that Mirror Knight section lighting up according to other players dying in the world.
what if we are looking at the game running offline and then when it's connected(released day, servers kick in = more players etc) it looks more like the Demo? :p

This is a good point. Even if environmental light cast from the torches is removed, they should be lighting up as players fight the boss and die. If that feature made it into the final game, naturally.

it's a 2014 pc game, of course it's gonna look dumpy on decade old console based bbq sauce.

The console build had these features and they've been ripped out in the retail version. The reviews are embargoed and nobody thought it worth informing potential buyers of this little fact.
 
if anything i'm annoyed the game is now lighter. the heavy darkness of the beta was amazing.

I remember reading that the feedback FROM got from the players was that this area was too dark but FROM said they would keep it this way anyway.
It seems both sides have changed their minds :p

maybe the only reliable media that FROM released were the screenshots
 

Gbraga

Member
I hope ENB has that video ready. I'm going to F5 his YouTube page at 9am tomorrow. Sounds like he's aware, and prepared to give some reasoning. I really respect his opinion.

If it's really a design decision because pitch black didn't work, he'll definitely have something to say about this, possibly even with footage to compare, since he had access to previous builds.
 
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