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Evander · Jul 4, 2008

truly101 said:
Doubtful we'd get a Beyond Good and Evil sequel without it or Persona 3 FES in the US. It does have good points too. Denis is the only one who thinks its all bad.

The publishers should pay attention to us, sure, but the media shouldn't care.

The problem is that there is no decent gaming media. Combine that with the fact that traditional media is all about trying to harness blogging and user created content, and it turns in to people treating message boards as though they ARE gaming media.

Visualante · Jul 4, 2008

Jax said:
There's also no such thing as transparent moderation.

Care to explain why you think this, or reasons why it couldn't happen? I don't think transparent was the best way to describe it on my part.

gofreak · Jul 4, 2008

Jinko said:
If anything though this thread proves him right, the only reason it exsist is to call him names and make fun of him.

Not really. There's some proper discussion in here. A lot of flaming too, but Denis was holding himself out for that. I wouldn't consider posts that are straightforward criticising him to be making fun on him. There's a lot of making fun of him, sure, but there's also just straight up criticism.

Kill Your Masters · Jul 4, 2008

SuperEnemyCrab said:
Uh....is it to late to change my vote to "against"?

I'd rather just take my vote back and keep an distance to such threads, never thought it would escalate this much.

And oh yeah btw: I was interested in the game...but the interest is fading away as Dyack posts and attacks more and more.

SK needs a professional spokesperson or at least someone who tells Denis what he can say and what not...

El-Suave · Jul 4, 2008

Bettenhausen was really hypocritical whenever he described board posters and traffic hungry headline spouting sites as "they" when he is the quickest of all podcast personel finally judge a game on a limited showing, watching somebody play or even message board consensus.

Garnett does quick judgements, too from time to time, but he usually has deeper first hand knowledge to back it up. Great job of him to call Dyack out while still trying to be polite to their guest.

I don't know if I could have sat in the same room keeping a straight face.

These were the exact same poor discussion patterns displayed by Dyack as in the "one console future" debate. It's amazing how many other activities he engages in while developing a game. I don't doubt he's hurt if one mocks his game, but he blows up every simple point he's trying to make with some punchwords he picked up from literature and in the end he makes it really hard to feel sorry for him.

snoopers · Jul 4, 2008

Y2Kev said:
I am in agreement with you that Denis' behavior probably should have little impact on that outside of the fact he has generated expectations for this product that even the most glowing previews admit the game probably won't match. I don't agree with the idea at all that the media has been unfair to this game.

I agree with you too, but I wasn't talking about the press. I was talking about GAF. Drohne said "that's pretty difficult to [separate a game from its creator] when [said creator] is uncomfortable with your freedom to criticize him". I answered that to me, Too Human hasn't been treated the normal way [by GAF] either. The whole problem in this Too Human story is the relationship between the public and Denis, not with the media. Concerning the way the game has been treated by the press, Denis said the game was shown too early to them and that was it. Relationship with the media wasn't really the point of the 1up podcast either, they talk about GAF and message boards.

I think people here have a real problem with Denis. Eternal Darkness, Twin Snakes, the Nintendo-MS thing, I can't help but think it started it all. People were just waiting for the right time to jump on him, and this time is now.

BravoSuperStar · Jul 4, 2008

Hellraizer said:
I'd rather just take my vote back and keep an distance to such threads, never thought it would escalate this much.

And oh yeah btw: I was interested in the game...but the interest is fading away as Dyack posts and attacks more and more.

SK needs a professional spokesperson or at least someone who tells Denis what he can say and what not...

My feelings exactly.

eve241 · Jul 4, 2008

Y2Kev said:
I think the disconnect here is that most people don't think trolling on an internet message board is outside of the realm of acceptable activity for internet message boards.

There is no accountability here to behave in any fashion other than what is stated in the ToS-- and that's a good thing-- despite what Dyack would want you to believe.

Why are people banned then? And why are there double standards?

jetsetmario · Jul 4, 2008

Beyond all of this a Developer's history is certainly fair game as well. They are quite adept at creating involving stories but gameplay has always been ass. What would make anyone think that Too Human would be any different?

Snowden · Jul 4, 2008

what the fuck am I listening to

Drinky Crow · Jul 4, 2008

drohne said:
there's obviously something to the idea that we ought to be kinder to each other on the internet, and there are segments of the internet that really worry me, but

a. gaf is really fucking tame

b. dyack's message is tainted. i don't think he believes the things he says, or has really thought out their anti-speech implications -- at this point he'll just say anything to discredit his critics. gaf does a pretty good job of discrediting itself, and sane game developers are content to let it do so

this.

also, to address the idea that mocking the fat kid is morally equivalent to stealing his lunch money: who is to say the mocking won't be beneficial in the long term? denis, in his recent discovery that books have interesting and applicable things in them, still has yet to read the books that likewise discuss the idea that a society which considers only the positive as valid messaging is also one with a real tooth for fascism. then again, i fear for the day when he picks up dialectic treatises from the frankfurt school and decides to apply them to game design :sick

BSherrod · Jul 4, 2008

Dyack had an incredible analysis of the gaming community and this site. I didn't agree with him on some things, but the majority of this thoughts I was nodding my head in agreement. I think all that he was trying to say was that the site has some great game discussion, but more game bashing than anything else. None of us here have played the game, so it isn't fair for us to have premature judgment of his baby because its amusing to us . After listening to the entire show I see that the build the 1up guys played had some flaws and kinks to be ironed out before release, but that does not allow me to act like I have played the game already myself because I hear Garnett and Shane talk about it.. I really enjoy being on NeoGAF because it has some really great video game discussion with some really intelligent and knowledgeable individuals, but for every great post, there is 3 or 4 bashing posts. With the internet there is always a sense of lack of responsibility and maturity in some instances, and that is not exclusive to this site at all. Should NeoGAF be shut down? No, and I don't even think he said. The thread title is incredibly misleading and at passing glance, most would think Dyack did a 50 minute bash section on the podcast. The real question is, how many people on this thread actually listened to the show and came up with a real opinion instead of posting an unfounded statement?

Visualante · Jul 4, 2008

El-Suave said:
Bettenhausen was really hypocritical whenever he described board posters and traffic hungry headline spouting sites as "they" when he is the quickest of all podcast personel finally judge a game on a limited showing, watching somebody play or even message board consensus.

I don't think you realize that Shane is often parodying and playing along with the 1UP Yours sensationalist vibe. It's part of the show. I don't think he's infallible, he even admitted to what he did last week citing MetaCritic as a reason not to buy some game. But he has been doing this job for a long time, he was the first to back Denis up when he said the media is pandering to message board culture. I wouldn't go as far to call him a hypocrite.

Kittonwy · Jul 4, 2008

snoopers said:
Too Human hasn't been treated the normal way either, it was more than just fair critics. Freedom to act like an ass, maybe. And honestly, I don't know how I would have reacted if I was in his shoes. Anyway, I'm not saying he did the right thing, just that as gamers, we should be able to separate the game from what Denis has been doing. I don't see how his behavior somehow makes the game worse if you're genuinely interested in it. If you're not, then it's another story.

I just find it strange that somehow when a developer releases media and material on a game people are supposed to completely withold opinions and judgements? How do you do that? How do you tell every single person who comes across previews or screenshots or gameplay footage/trailers that they can't expression what they think?

seanoff · Jul 4, 2008

Dyack needs to stay off the drugs.

he is all over the fucking place. He seems to be tying together strands that don't need to be tied together.

WTF is he on about. Seriously. He's sticking up for Jeff Bell?

Shane, get your tongue out of Dyack's arse. please. and shane you aren't even man enough to post here as yourself or even be known, at least denis has that.

The forum is not a single mind, it's 10,000+ minds all off on their own tangent. As a collective we do not exist. Read any thread, some threads, everyone disagrees with every one else. I read, giggle and throw it away because i'm not GAF and GAF isn't me.

Denis, it's a forum, we discuss stuff. If you don't like it FUCK OFF. No one forces you here. If you disagree, disagree. fine.

It starting to sound he is not confident in his own game and this is advanced damage control.

Garnett has it right. Do what you think is right or good and if people disagree, fine.

But Denis, you are trying to sell me a product. Your probably smart, but this isn't the smartest thing i've seen this yr.

Evander · Jul 4, 2008

Endow said:
why are there double standards?

Because it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to be purely objective.

LiK · Jul 4, 2008

gawd, don't you love him?

jax (old) · Jul 4, 2008

Visualante said:
Care to explain why you think this, or reasons why it couldn't happen? I don't think transparent was the best way to describe it on my part.

If the moderation team have to explain every single ban/decision on how they moderate, this forum will be full of "why is x banned/this that bitch moans". Transparency is an ideal but not feasible. No point arguing this anymore really.

Bsherrod, I listened to the podcast.

MisterSINISTER · Jul 4, 2008

well, guess mr dyack would rather see his career as a game designer go down in a ball of fire due to an internet forum. GG DD. Less QQ next time.

truly101 · Jul 4, 2008

I thought Shane was referring more towards the sites that report message board rumors as real to drum up traffic, something that joy.stiq, kotaku and destrutoid have all been accused of doing. Granted, 1up has done some similar things, like reporting on the Dyack "for/against" thread here

Vinci · Jul 4, 2008

Denis is awesome. He said bad things about GAF. Woo-hoo.

You're the man, Denis!

Nolan. · Jul 4, 2008

Kittonwy said:
I just find it strange that somehow when a developer releases media and material on a game people are supposed to completely withold opinions and judgements? How do you do that? How do you tell every single person who comes across previews or screenshots or gameplay footage/trailers that they can't expression what they think?

So Kittonwy you going to that Launch party.? -_-

strikeselect · Jul 4, 2008

Kittonwy said:
I just find it strange that somehow when a developer releases media and material on a game people are supposed to completely withold opinions and judgements? How do you do that? How do you tell every single person who comes across previews or screenshots or gameplay footage/trailers that they can't expression what they think?

You were invited to the Too Human launch party. :lol

bishoptl · Jul 4, 2008

WrikaWrek said:
stop being mean you guys

Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

Evander · Jul 4, 2008

Honestly, this all reminds me of the time that Scott Kurtz got banned from his own forum, on purpose, and then deleted it out of spite.

Ra\/en · Jul 4, 2008

I wanted to listen and understand him, but I found that it was hard to keep with his string of thoughts. I think he seems to be a well-read and smart guy, but he is not the BEST at expressing himself clearly. most of the discussion they had on the podcast came across to me as ramblings. I've had University professors ramble on for whole lectures about something that is passionate to them, but they always follow a coherent pattern.

Personally, if I was an artist/designer/programmer whatever for his game, and Denis came to me trying to explain a complex detail with that fast talking all over the place style, I would be confused, and probably come up with a jumbled mess of a game - Too human:lol

SappYoda · Jul 4, 2008

Dyack wasn't supposed to be insomniac podcast mistery guest? And then he shows up in 1up yours?

jax (old) · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

K U D O S

mjc · Jul 4, 2008

I have nothing to add either way here, just that it's very interesting to watch both sides argue to a meaningless end.

eve241 · Jul 4, 2008

Evander said:
Because it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to be purely objective.

That's why there are groups of people, to even things. And every single individual has had time to ponder this again and again.

snoopers · Jul 4, 2008

Kittonwy said:
I just find it strange that somehow when a developer releases media and material on a game people are supposed to completely withold opinions and judgements? How do you do that? How do you tell every single person who comes across previews or screenshots or gameplay footage/trailers that they can't expression what they think

I never said we shouldn't express what we think out of screenshots or videos. And I would be quite hypocritical to say such a thing considering I'm the first one to trust the impressions I get from media. The only thing I'm calling out is mistaking genuine opinion with anti-dyack rants in disguise. This shit has gone too far on GAF, and most of the badmouthing comes from people who don't give a shit about the game. That's the problem, and that's why I consider the game hasn't been treated the normal way here.

Greg · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

I salute this post.

I'm going to buy Turok now - see how that works, Denis? :lol

Kittonwy · Jul 4, 2008

Nolan. said:
So Kittonwy you going to that Launch party.? -_-

Are they serving free beer there? I'll think about it if there's free beer, you can't have a "party" without free beer, Molson Canadian and none of that labatts crap.

Azih · Jul 4, 2008

WrikaWrek said:
but maybe i should be a bit more conscious and realize that i can be affecting others.

Only childish manbabies would be adversely affected by posts on a VIDEOGAME MESSAGE BOARD ON THE INTERNET.

Evander · Jul 4, 2008

Endow said:
That's why there are groups of people, to even things. And every single individual has had time to ponder this again and again.

Groups of people just gives you groupthink.

Trust me, moderators do their best to be fair (in general), but it is simply impossible for everything to always work out at 100%

Especially because, unless a message bopard want to hire outside people, you generally have people moderating who are interested in he same topics as everyone else, and therefore have their on biases on individual subjects.

Also, there is the issue that, when immediate action needs to be taken, there simply isn't time to get everyone together and chat about what to do.

Pureauthor · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

Thumbs up, bish.

MMaRsu · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

Kudos Bishop

I don't have nothing against you, you scare the shit outta me though with that sam jackson avatar, and you banned me a couple times which I thought was not really neccesary but you're right on the money with that post

SlasherJPC · Jul 4, 2008

Well at least we can say Dyack has left his mark on Neogaf history.

jax (old) · Jul 4, 2008

Azih said:
Only childish manbabies would be adversely affected by posts on a VIDEOGAME MESSAGE BOARD ON THE INTERNET.

that's it! I couldnt remember the exact phrase. What was the genesis of it again?

BravoSuperStar · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

And it's supposedly mods like this that are "ruining" society? Fuck off, Denis. This guy is more of a man, gamer, lover, whatever, than you'll ever be.

No_Style · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
Settle the fuck down.

My last game got roasted here - with a little bit of extra ad hominem attacks by folks who have a personal axe to grind with me - and I'm a freaking admin.

I sucked it up, took my lumps, and made it clear to everyone that I wouldn't moderate the official thread at all to ensure that people felt like they could speak their minds and treat it like any other game that comes out. I sure as hell wasn't whining to Geoff Keighley on SpikeTV about the evils of internet messageboards.

To try and pass this off as some sort of grand social experiment as opposed to the reality - a callout which backfired horribly - is damage control of the most ham-fisted variety. What's worse? It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

It was a foolish thread that did nothing to help the game's cause - and that's a cardinal sin.

*Claps*

I've always wondered how you handled that situation. Never knew the details. Kudos to you, sir.

bishoptl · Jul 4, 2008

snoopers said:
I never said we shouldn't express what we think out of screenshots or videos. And I would be quite hypocritical to say such a thing considering I'm the first one to trust the impressions I get from media. The only thing I'm calling out is mistaking genuine opinion with anti-dyack rants in disguise. This shit has gone too far on GAF, and most of the badmouthing comes from people who don't give a shit about the game. That's the problem, and that's why I consider the game hasn't been treated the normal way here.

OK, with that said - how do you feel Turok was treated here? Do I have a legitimate axe to grind in terms of that game's treatment?

Should I have complained vocally every time somebody said something negative - knowing, in some cases, that their vitriol was aimed at me, personally - or better yet, abused my position to keep the official thread free of criticism?

It's the internet. People get worked up about shit. People get worked up about personalities. Games come out, they get played or they don't, and the collective moves on to the next target. I've grown a fairly thick skin about this sort of thing, it's more sad than amusing that others continue to strike the tar baby and wonder what all this sticky stuff is.

mjc · Jul 4, 2008

I'm going against my previous statement.

I think that Denis made some good points about this website and forums in general, but it does nothing too drastic to help Too Human or the things he's said the last couple weeks. I think Garnett made some great points as well, and I don't often agree with his opinions.

Revolver · Jul 4, 2008

Dyack shouldn't resort to trolling a message board. Regardless what's said about him or his game, he should rise above it and let the game speak for itself. I think he's doing a disservice to the people at his company that have put in hard work and long hours. He's coming off like some kind of diva.

Anyway, I hope Too Human turns out decent. Tycho at Penny Arcade had some fairly positive things to say about it. Aside from the camera and a few other minor issues the game exceeded his expectations.

WrikaWrek · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
If i can take it so can he

But did you? You banned Admiral Viscen for making a joke about the game graphics on the PS3. A joke that is TAME in comparison to the hundreds of jokes that are made at Dyack's and Too Human's expenses.

So clearly, even if you regret it or not, you were offended and given the option to show how you felt about it, you chose to ban him under grounds that he was trolling, when trolling is the everyday meal at gaf.

What i'm sayin is, yes, criticize the shit out of it, but not to the point of ridiculing it. I'm not saying it should be a rule, i'm saying that i for one woke up to this and will try to not be an asshole just for the kicks of it, just because it looks fun and the other posters are piling on it. Dyack was a fool to pay GAF attention, but in all honestly GAF was acting stupid about it too.

But that's my opinion, and i don't expect others to agree.

twinturbo2 · Jul 4, 2008

:lol at Kittonwy's new tag.

mjc · Jul 4, 2008

Revolver said:
Dyack shouldn't resort to trolling a message board. Regardless what's said about him or his game, he should rise above it and let the game speak for itself. I think he's doing a disservice to the people at his company that have put in hard work and long hours. He's coming off like some kind of diva.

Anyway, I hope Too Human turns out decent. Tycho at Penny Arcade had some fairly positive things to say about it. Aside from the camera and a few other minor issues the game exceeded his expectations.

I agree, good post.

WrikaWrek · Jul 4, 2008

Azih said:
Only childish manbabies would be adversely affected by posts on a VIDEOGAME MESSAGE BOARD ON THE INTERNET.

That's just stupid.

Why are you here then? If you don't care about what other people think why are you even posting? Why are you even reading other people's posts?

All you gotta do is write some shit on MS word and read it yourself since apparently, you don't give a shit, because it's people on the internet.

Azih · Jul 4, 2008

Jax said:
that's it! I couldnt remember the exact phrase. What was the genesis of it again?

I don't even know I think some douche was calling someone else a nerd for posting on a VIDEOGAME MESSAGE BOARD ON THE INTERNET by posting on the same videogame message board on the internet. The complete lack of irony gave birth to the meme.

And much respect bishoptl.

Kill Your Masters · Jul 4, 2008

bishoptl said:
It doesn't do anything except draw more negative attention to his team's hard work - something I wouldn't appreciate at all if I was in their shoes.

That is the saddest thing. Denis wont be the only one who will suffer from this. I seriously doubt his team agrees with this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be pleased if anything my boss does backfires on the wohle team effort - again and again.

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