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[Kintaro]

So, I just listened to the whole thing.

All I've got to say is...done!

I honestly hope for Denis that Too Human has even the tiniest bit of success. Otherwise I'm truly scared what may happen to this man.

Garnett: Diablo 3 isn't coming to consoles. Blizzard rules that roost.

 

[snoopers]

The greatest negative impact on Too Human has been Denis' behavior. Plain and simple, thos who read and post on message boards have had more than enough of his excuses and egotistical rants.

That's because you read his posts, and because you care about them. If you're interested in the game, you're interested in the game. Bleszinski could come here and rant like an idiot for months, I would buy Gears2 anyway - the same way I nevermind Denis' behavior and just care about how Too Human will turn out. Don't make excuses for yourself, don't pretend you care about Too Human. Most of the people who mock the man and his work don't give a shit about the game at all and hope it'll bomb.

 

[GitarooMan]

Haven't read the whole thread but like most things, there is some truth and some bullshit in his thoughts. I think that people who comment on things they have no knowledge of are exposed all the time here, and if they are not directly exposed, I when reading them can see through the vast majority of the biased bullshit people post. I think most reasoned people see through and ignore it as well, and I'm certainly not making judgments on Too Human based on the biased crap people with obvious agendas are posting here.

I do think that the large numbers of people who seemingly have campaigns against for/against certain systems/games without much knowledge of them are incredibly annoying and a problem on GAF, but really there is enough good stuff and good posters here that it usually is worth wading through the crap. Although it seems like actually games discussion is taking more and more of a backseat to bullshit system politics there are still diamonds in the rough (see the Etrian II thread for example). I do think the moderation could be a little bit stiffer, but it's not my site so I just deal with it.

 

[jetsetmario]

"I am the only one with a valid opinion"-Dennis Dyack

Dyack is the equivalent of a 13 year old girl with a MySpace page gone wild. The internet, or any public forum for that matter does not occur in a vacuum. If you post things in an inflammatory manner, you are bound to garner a response.

The true luminaries of this industry Miyamoto, Mikami, Wright, Ancel, Jaffe(yea Jaffe) enhance the image of their games. Their association with a game creates an immediate interest of the best kind. However, Dyack has done the complete opposite. By starting arguments on the always popular platform of "Your just not enlightened, so you wouldn't know" argument he has created what is quite possibly an irreversible bias toward his game. The only person Dyack has to blame is himself.

 

[Jiguryo]

That's because you read his posts, and because you care about them. If you're interested in the game, you're interested in the game. Bleszinski could come here and rant like an idiot for months, I would buy Gears2 anyway - the same way I nevermind Denis' behavior and just care about how Too Human will turn out. Don't make excuses for yourself, don't pretend you care about Too Human. Most of the people who mock the man and his work don't give a shit about the game at all and hope it'll bomb.

This.

 

[WrikaWrek]

The greatest negative impact on Too Human has been Denis' behavior. Plain and simple, those who read and post on message boards have had more than enough of his excuses and egotistical rants.

Why act as if GAF did nothing wrong?

Bunch of trolls, bully type posting, trashing on a game for the fun of it. Aren't we being pricks? Because we are at a point where maybe we can affect not only other people's behavior but other people's jobs.

I mean really? Is this it? Would you do this if it wasn't gaf? Do we usually act like pricks towards other people in real life?

Or is it just a message board thing, because it's easier, and there's no repercussions? People complain about Xbox live people, how people are pricks with one another in online games, well gaf is the same.

Not everything Denis said was crazy talk, some things do make sense, just like when people troll Garnett and other people on 1up, i've done it, but i shouldn't have. You can criticize without being a prick, if it gets to the point where your criticism is nothing but ridiculing, then there's something wrong.

I'm sure some if not most of you will just ignore it and keep doing what you been doing, but i sure as hell think that i should be more sensible towards other people, and their work. Nobody is making me buy it, and nobody is making me post about it.

 

[Doc Evils]

Which only happened recently. He was demodded after he was banned for quite some time.

Jim is a great guy, one of my favorite NeoGAF posters, and it was just a mistake, plain and simple.

yep Jim is a cool guy.

 

[Y2Kev]

Why act as if GAF did nothing wrong?

I think the disconnect here is that most people don't think trolling on an internet message board is outside of the realm of acceptable activity for internet message boards.

There is no accountability here to behave in any fashion other than what is stated in the ToS-- and that's a good thing-- despite what Dyack would want you to believe.

 

[CharminUltra]

Manho :lol

This thread keeps on giving

 

[heliosRAzi]

where is the thread that he created? also what the fook is THE NEOGAF?

The NEOGAF is an ancient weapon the Old Gods made. It has the power to destroy society as we know it.

 

[Atrophis]

There is some truth to the idea that a message board like GAF could hurt the sales of Too Human. Its the type of game that would need to be embraced by the enthusiasts (us) to transcend to wider success. It doesn't have either the licensed appeal (like a Disney game or 50 cent) nor has it earned any sort of mainstream recognition the way a Halo, Mario or GTA game has. If the enthusiasts who congregate on boards like NeoGaf, IGN, 1up or where ever are reluctant to embrace the game based on hearsay, rumors and other like threads, I don't see how the game could be successful.

Wasnt Kane and Lynch fairly successful even with the backlash of the entire internet? I think you overstate the effect online communities actually have on sales.

 

[PistolGrip]

Seriously this guy is the biggest Cry Baby in the industry.

That should be his tag actually. What fking joke. its a forum. They are on their way up not down. Freedom of speech. GAF is actually one of the most censuring sites out there to keep the offensive material out but Dyack just deserves.

 

[jax (old)]

Why act as if GAF did nothing wrong?

Bunch of trolls, bully type posting, trashing on a game for the fun of it. Aren't we being pricks? Because we are at a point where maybe we can affect not only other people's behavior but other people's jobs.

I mean really? Is this it? Would you do this if it wasn't gaf? Do we usually act like pricks towards other people in real life?

Or is it just a message board thing, because it's easier, and there's no repercussions? People complain about Xbox live people, how people are pricks with one another in online games, well gaf is the same.

Not everything Denis said was crazy talk, some things do make sense, just like when people troll Garnett and other people on 1up, i've done it, but i shouldn't have. You can criticize without being a prick, if it gets to the point where your criticism is nothing but ridiculing, then there's something wrong.

I'm sure some if not most of you will just ignore it and keep doing what you been doing, but i sure as hell think that i should be more sensible towards other people, and their work. Nobody is making me buy it, and nobody is making me post about it.

whats the phrase? Its a internet message board in the interweb... or something like that.

 

[drohne]

That's because you read his posts, and because you care about them. If you're interested in the game, you're interested in the game.

there's something to be said for separating a game from its creators -- but that's pretty difficult to do when a game's creator is uncomfortable with your freedom to criticize him, and shows up on your board and in podcasts to troll you and send vague threats your way. at this point it would be almost be perverse to look past his bizarre behavior and see the game -- the bizarre behavior is much more interesting -- would in fact eclipse a better game than too human appears to be

 

[Dever]

Eh, this isn't that bad. I think it can be easily summed up with that "Internet is serious business" picture. The fact that Kittonwy apparently didn't "stop posting for months" makes his argument pretty weak. He also said something about how 180 people should be banned for grouping together and mocking a member of the forum, himself. Really? Would it be fine if he hadn't registered? Public figures get ripped on all the time, it doesn't change a thing wether you're a member or not really. It may be against the rules, but it's not always that black and white. The mods here can pretty much make up their own rules if they want to(See 10+ people getting banned for mentioning ZOE3 in that one thread :lol). No one here takes these things super seriously like Dyack.

Besides, he's brought this on himself. People were pretty harsh on Resistance 2 after that gameplay footage, but did anyone call James Stevenson or Ted Price a moron? No, and that's because they haven't said dumb shit like: "Oh you'd rather play R2 than watch LotR" and made themselves a "celebrity." Cliffy B on the other hand gets ripped on quite a lot, it's just that he doesn't say ridiculous stuff like that or make games that look shitty on video. Too Human simply does not look like a great game at all when you watch gameplay footage of it. Obviously those videos don't say much about the actual gameplay or depth, but that's pretty much the reason everyone is ripping on Dyack so much. I voted Against in that thread, simply because I didn't like what I had seen of TH. I was fully aware that there's no way I can know what the actual gameplay is like, but I did what I was told to do, pick for/against based on what I've seen. Now I'm apparently "dumb" for doing that, and the "smart" ones didn't respond to the thread at all.

Also, the 90+ Metacritic thing probably came from the "It's the best game we've made" thing. As in it should beat ED.

 

[WrikaWrek]

I think the disconnect here is that most people don't think trolling on an internet message board is outside of the realm of acceptable activity for internet message boards.

There is no accountability here-- and that's a good thing-- despite what Dyack would want you to believe.

Right. Nothing will happen to me, but maybe i should be a bit more conscious and realize that i can be affecting others.

Being an asshole because nobody can do you anything is just as bad as downloading that torrent of a game you want because you know nobody will catch you stealing.

It is still stealing, and you are still being an asshole, and whether you like to acknowledge it or not, you can, not saying you are, but you can affect other people's life.

 

[AndresON777]

He's just insecure about his game that he's been making for over 10 years

 

[Y2Kev]

Right. Nothing will happen to me, but maybe i should be a bit more conscious and realize that i can be affecting others.

Being an asshole because nobody can do you anything is just as bad as downloading that torrent of a game you want because you know nobody will catch you stealing.

It is still stealing, and you are still being an asshole, and whether you like to acknowledge it or not, you can, not saying you are, but you can affect other people's life.

...well, no. One is an illegal activity and one is being an asshole on a message board.

I'm not saying that being an asshole is a good thing (or even a neutral thing), but put it in perspective here.

 

[jetsetmario]

Everything is a valid argument. If someone thinks that Dyack is creep they have every right to express that, on the boards or on the street. In like fashion, Dyack also has the right to say the same about forums.

The problem here is that Dyack wants to shut down any discourse that does line up with his opinions or ideals.

 

[DKehoe]

It's definitely worth a listen Dyack made some interesting points but put them across badly. He seemed to be mentioning books he has read recently as a way of giving himself some intellectual credibility. Also why didn't he say this stuff right here? If he is challenging GAF itself to change then he should be adressing GAF, not Shane, Garnett etc.

 

[Haunted]

Dyack needs to be stopped before he ruins this project, would suck for everyone else involved.


oops, way to late for that.

 

[WrikaWrek]

...well, no. One is an illegal activity and one is being an asshole on a message board.

I'm not saying that being an asshole is a good thing (or even a neutral thing), but put it in perspective here.

I'm just saying it's the same concept.

You might not be stealing money, but you might be stealing other non material things from people.

Being a prick everyday at school to that fat kid might not be illegal, but it can be just as bad as stealing his lunch money everyday.

 

[Visualante]

I think the disconnect here is that most people don't think trolling on an internet message board is outside of the realm of acceptable activity for internet message boards.

There is no accountability here to behave in any fashion other than what is stated in the ToS-- and that's a good thing-- despite what Dyack would want you to believe.

I disagree on your last point, the moderation staff are influencing behavior. There is a risk of being banned, there is risk of being tagged.

I wonder if Denis thinks GAF would be better without tags, and with transparent moderation?

 

[_Xenon_]

That's because you read his posts, and because you care about them. If you're interested in the game, you're interested in the game. Bleszinski could come here and rant like an idiot for months, I would buy Gears2 anyway - the same way I nevermind Denis' behavior and just care about how Too Human will turn out. Don't make excuses for yourself, don't pretend you care about Too Human. Most of the people who mock the man and his work don't give a shit about the game at all and hope it'll bomb.

QFT.

Maybe Denis is an asshole but some posters here are not too far from it.

 

[drohne]

there's obviously something to the idea that we ought to be kinder to each other on the internet, and there are segments of the internet that really worry me, but

a. gaf is really fucking tame

b. dyack's message is tainted. i don't think he believes the things he says, or has really thought out their anti-speech implications -- at this point he'll just say anything to discredit his critics. gaf does a pretty good job of discrediting itself, and sane game developers are content to let it do so

 

[h3ro]

The best thing to come from this thread is the christening of the new GAF Golden Idol... behold, Garnet, the new ManGod...

manho... :lol

 

[heliosRAzi]

Right. Nothing will happen to me, but maybe i should be a bit more conscious and realize that i can be affecting others.

Being an asshole because nobody can do you anything is just as bad as downloading that torrent of a game you want because you know nobody will catch you stealing.

It is still stealing, and you are still being an asshole, and whether you like to acknowledge it or not, you can, not saying you are, but you can affect other people's life.

One is illegal and the other is just... immoral. People can be assholes because they are hidden behind an alias. Their words may hurt others, but the others need to either learn to grow some thick skin or not take the internet seriously. Remember, you have a choice to go to a different site or to get the fuck off completely.

If Dyack had just shut the fuck up, this would not have blown up as it has.

The internets doesn't like those who take these series of tubes seriously.

 

[alr1ght]

This is all just some giant PR stunt.

However, from what he says, it sounds like he wants to shut down and change the entire internet. Give people an anonymous outlet that has no effect on their real lives, and they will use it to its full extent. Not having opinionated previews is also a tad ridiculous request, because what else would a preview be? A third party PR piece is what.

 

[snoopers]

there's something to be said for separating a game from its creators -- but that's pretty difficult to do when a game's creator is uncomfortable with your freedom to criticize him

Too Human hasn't been treated the normal way either, it was more than just fair critics. Freedom to act like an ass, maybe. And honestly, I don't know how I would have reacted if I was in his shoes. Anyway, I'm not saying he did the right thing, just that as gamers, we should be able to separate the game from what Denis has been doing. I don't see how his behavior somehow makes the game worse if you're genuinely interested in it. If you're not, then it's another story.

 

[duk]

wow maybe all this can be a good thing, maybe a few posters will become wiser from it

 

[jax (old)]

I disagree on your last point, the moderation staff are influencing behavior. There is a risk of being banned, there is risk of being tagged.

I wonder if Denis thinks GAF would be better without tags, and with transparent moderation?

1) can't say I disagree but you'd rather gamefaqs? Neogaf is incidendary because a lot of its posters are actually very succint and intelligent posters with lots to say about videogames.

2) Who cares what the clown thinks about this forum? "reform the messageboards?". What a pompous prick. fuck him. There's also no such thing as transparent moderation. The stuff that comes out of his mouth. HOLYSHIT.


Garnett is totally owning him with logic. Totally making sense.

 

[Prime crotch]

I'm just saying it's the same concept.

You might not be stealing money, but you might be stealing other non material things from people.

Being a prick everyday at school to that fat kid might not be illegal, but it can be just as bad as stealing his lunch money everyday.

Dyack's a big man already, public figures are always under heat if you can't stand it leave and don't do stupid shit.

 

[Crayon]

b. dyack's message is tainted. i don't think he believes the things he says, or has really thought out their anti-speech implications -- at this point he'll just say anything to discredit his critics. gaf does a pretty good job of discrediting itself, and sane game developers are content to let it do so

That's true and that is what lies at the heart of the negative reactions in this thread.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

Why do I get the sense that Dyack would've cobbled together some gibberish about the collective brilliance of "The NeoGAF" had his game been positively received? I bet he had a whole stack of books to misunderstand and theories to butcher. The guy wants all of the benefits of pre-release press coverage, but has no tolerance for the potential negatives. Dialog about games is great . . . as long as it's on Dyack's terms. 1UP consistently giving him a platform to vent his incoherent drivel and whore his product is just embarrassing for them.

Also, I loved the bits of the podcast with Shane deriding message board posters for the exact sort of fanboy bullshit he vomits out every week. I suppose he was breaking character this week?

 

[Whipped Spartan]

GAF is mismanaged? Dennis really takes his gaming forums serious. One would think he posts on here regularly instead of twice a year.

 

[Evander]

The only issue is that anyone takes anything on the internet seriously, ever.

 

[soldat7]

He's just insecure about his game that he's been making for over 10 years

Maybe so, but there does come a point where a person might feel compelled to try and stand up for themselves, and in Denis's case, for his company, when your name is being slandered and your image mocked. However, Denis probably hasn't done himself (or his company) any favors by feeding the fire. I can't blame him for trying though, to be honest.

Do I use too many commas in my posts? I think I might...

 

[Luckyman]

:lol

It´s obvious Dyack has no confidence in this game at all. Can't really blame him..

 

[krypt0nian]

Aristotle & Socrates wept.

 

[Y2Kev]

Too Human hasn't been treated the normal way either, it was more than just fair critics. .

You know, this is also really kind of bullshit. This game has been treated with kid gloves by so many different participants along the way that it's almost hard to believe. Yes, the message boards have been mean to him and maybe they shouldn't have been. But Too Human and Denis Dyack have gotten a number of glowing previews--stretching all the way back to that now-embarrassing Shane preview a month before TH's disastrous E3 debut-- opportunities to sell his product on podcasts, blogs on a large number of sites, a high profile lawsuit dragging all the game's dirty laundry into the open, and this isn't even without considering the perks his game has actually received (how many games get delayed for two years with continued funding from the same publisher?).

Even this podcast's impressions felt so tempered-- hell, Garnett was ever the gentleman for this segment (which contrasts nicely with, like, his genuine enthusiasm for the Quantum of Solace game they talk about right after this one.)

Yes, I agree, message board trolls have been major douches to Denis Dyack. But how many other developers get the opportunity to appear on shows like EGM Live and basically nonsensically trash game journalists for 2 hours? How about doing that thrice.

Ultimately you will either like this game or you won't, and I am in agreement with you that Denis' behavior probably should have little impact on that outside of the fact he has generated expectations for this product that even the most glowing previews admit the game probably won't match. I don't agree with the idea at all that the media has been unfair to this game. ZD gave the e3 2k6 build one of their game of show nomination awards. Think about that for a second.

 

[truly101]

Wasnt Kane and Lynch fairly successful even with the backlash of the entire internet? I think you overstate the effect online communities actually have on sales.

Kane and Lynch also received a pretty decent marketing push from Eidos, including TV ads, Too Human may not receive the same benefit. I wouldn't call K&L a runaway success either. A game like Too Human I think would need enthusiast support to be successful, I don't see it transcending enthusiast support to become a mainstream success. I'm not endorsing Dyack's point whole heartedly, but GAF and other forums DO have influence.

 

[NinajHeartless]

Kefkataran, you're a good soldier. But this battle's over. It's time to get while the getting's good.

Don't be Denis Dyack's Eva Braun.

Holy shit :lol :lol :lol
+20 Mad Respect Points for Draft

 

[Linkified]

Yeh Dyack makes some interesting points, but really its the internet. Yeh theres some nasty shit on it. And the guy probably has alot of stress trying to get this game out of the door.

HOWEVER one point he brought up regarding people judging a game before it was out was uncalled for seriously, we live in a time of a credit crunch and gamers like any consumer spending valuable £/$/euros need to be satisfied everything has to be perfect from graphics to audio to longevity. So if a previewer said they finished TH in 10 hours thats seems short for an RPG. If there are problems regarding the graphics as John Davidson brought up we should be informed.

I personally feel for the guy, but blaming the Sun, the Moon and the stars for not bringing your product out in the last 5 years - won't help with a) your public image b) your product and c) SK itself. And Dyack should propbably take a relaxing trip just to calm down and refocus. Its not the technology that has to change with the world but people having to change for technology.

 

[Evander]

GAF and other forums DO have influence.

But they really shouldn't.

 

[jax (old)]

Why do I get the sense that Dyack would've cobbled together some gibberish about the collective brilliance of "The NeoGAF" had his game been positively received? I bet he had a whole stack of books to misunderstand and theories to butcher. The guy wants all of the benefits of pre-release press coverage, but has no tolerance for the potential negatives. Dialog about games is great . . . as long as it's on Dyack's terms. 1UP consistently giving him a platform to vent his incoherent drivel and whore his product is just embarrassing for them.

agreed 100%. I still couldn't believe that 1up gave Dyack the chance to have that session with Mark McDonald to have that discussion about the "preview" lambasting of Too Human demo at E3. It was a shitty running demo. He really doesn't deserve more. Cry cry cry more. I really hate reading about this clown. Also crying about the tags on this forum? :lol but then the whole point of his convo/thread that got locked was to get people tagged.

Hypocritical cunt

 

[truly101]

I think now its almost impossible for Too Human to be judged solely on its own merits now, at least in how the review scores are perceived. Someone, somewhere will have a conspiracy theory that fits either outcome. It got good scores because reviewers felt sorry for Denis and they too hate game forums. It got bad scores because all the negative threads got to the reviewers, who all post on GAF anyway, they just want to fit in. I think Too Human's legacy will pretty much have nothing to do with the actual game. I still plan on buying it though.

 

[hclflow]

Congratulations, 1up. You delivered a guest so pretentious, so in love with himself and delusional that I ALMOST downloaded your podcast. Almost. I'm still thinking about it.

I just don't know when I'd get the time to listen to it. If I listen to it playing D2, I'll probably die every two minutes from laughing.

Dyack is obviously an idiot, and I think he's just imploding at this point because he realizes Too Human is going to be a pretty big bomb. After all of this crap and his game failing, it'd be hard to see MS going through with the trilogy and Dyack having much of a future in the industry. If he does, I'll be amazed.

BTW, where's the PR for his company? Either they're shitting bricks or have been astronomically high in a brothel for the past two weeks.

 

[truly101]

But they really shouldn't.

Doubtful we'd get a Beyond Good and Evil sequel without it or Persona 3 FES in the US. It does have good points too. Denis is the only one who thinks its all bad.

 

[Jinko]

I can see his point to be honest, after reading quite a bit of this thread you see how much immaturity is on here.

There are some really good opinions in amongst the crap here and they get totally ignored.

There is no discussion in this thread, its just here to aggrivate the man even more.

Regardless of who he is or who he works for the guy still has feelings and when you say negative things about him or his work, its obviously guna provoke a responce, I guess you could all say it takes a bigger man to walk away, ignore it etc etc, but its all depends of his tolerance levels (which is clearly not very high)

If anything though this thread proves him right, the only reason it exsist is to call him names and make fun of him.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

Uh....is it to late to change my vote to "against"?