• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

No skin thick enough: the daily harassment of women in the game industry

  • Thread starter Deleted member 47027
  • Start date
Oez5Kkz.jpg


^^ Whoever created this was 100% wrong.

People are not assholes on the internet because of anonymity. They are assholes on the internet, because they are simply assholes.

Replace "Anonymity" with "Lack of Consequence" and I think it's closer to true.
 
I think anybody who does something that draws attention to themselves of any kind is inevitably going to get shit from random assholes on the internet. The problem is that the very act of being a woman in a mostly-male space draws attention to you, especially when that space is filled with men who traditionally don't have many positive experiences with women.

The Internet Hate Machine will never, ever die as long as it's possible to be anonymous on the internet, so it *is* something that everyone's going to have to get used to. I'm not saying it's okay, I'm just saying it's a fact of modern-day life that everyone, regardless of race, gender, or sexuality, is going to see. There are certainly things we can do to reduce it, especially the disproportionate level of hate that certain people/groups get, but if your criteria for gender equality being achieved in gaming culture is that no woman ever gets an anonymous message threatening and/or dropping the c-bomb on her, you're going to be waiting until the heat death of the goddamned universe.

The Myth: Women in the games industry get special treatment for being women, and your life can be made easier by your looks

This basically hits at the other side of the misogyny coin- while plenty of guys will treat women as whiny sub-human attention whores, plenty of others treat them as delicate flowers who should be put on a pedestal and protected from all harm. To be less hyperbolic, guys tend to grow up being taught to treat girls better than they do other guys, even if they're not trying to get in their pants, and that's arguably just as harmful to women in the long term, especially since a big motivator behind the other kind of misogyny is basically backlash against this idea.
 
So just to be straight here, you're speaking for every single woman who works on interacts with this industry?
Well, I've made it clear to relate to my experiences or make it perfectly obvious that I'm talking about women who have spoken out.

Your being disingenuous isn't helping your position.
 

Terrified

Member
talking more about banhammers. I think neogaf has more than enough members and posters that it could afford to ban people who are going to be creeps. my 2 cents!

Oh, agreed - I'm glad it's not my job to police it as such, because this stuff is so insidious and subtle that sometimes it can be difficult to tell whether someone has crossed the line into genuine creepiness or whether they're just socially inept. Not that the latter is an excuse at all. It opens up very interesting debates about what to allow.

I suppose if there's any doubt, people should report to mods and let them decide.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
"If you killed yourself, I wouldn’t even fuck the corpse."
This comment doesnt make much sense unless the person saying it is a necrophile. Regardless, i cant believe that people say things like that to others simply because of an opinion of some game related stuff.
 
I doubt you and others would know what I do outside of the internets to help women in my field, or what I've done in my power to make games that I have control over to be less misogynistic. What I've done to make the industry that I have a say in more inclusive to people other than straight males.

I don't know who you are or what you've done, in any area of life.

But, I'd love to hear about some things relevant to this thread. :)
Do you actively ask female employees if they've experienced subtle discrimination?
Do you have written policies at your company regarding what constitutes harassment? (It sounded from your posts that you are management level+)
Do you maintain any website comment sections and remove posts with offensive material?
Do you refuse to play games with mysogynistic content?

Your responses could help others to have ideas on productive things to do. :)
 

E92 M3

Member
Women are lovely - can't imagine life without them. Fuck those assholes. If someone said that to my girl, I'd beat their shit in.
 

Steel

Banned
It's not super difficult. On GAF, discuss things as if you were in a real-life conversation with acquaintances/ people you don't know particularly well, which includes women. (Because, well, you are.)

Would you, in a real-life conversation including women you don't know particularly well, look at a passing woman and say "OMG would totally bang! Amirite? Fist bumps all around!" Probably not, right? Well then also don't do it on GAF. Pretty simple.

... I know people who totally do just this on a regular basis, in public(Not to the woman in question, but as an aside). The worst part is, one of them is married.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Both problems stem from the same cultural problems of women being less valued than men.

Maybe so, but that doesn't seem to be a very productive way of seeking out any sort of solution. As I pointed out, if you perpetuate the stereotype of the average game developer as being perniciously sexist, why would any woman want to enter that environment?

It solves nothing, and arguably perpetuates the problem of gender imbalance by discouraging female applicants.
 

Gbraga

Member
Ask Elliot Roger

Well, you do have a point. I got kind of the same reaction while watching his video too, that, even if he's too lost in his view of the world to notice how fucked up it is, he should at least be able to notice how lame and cringeworthy his rants were. That laugh? Seriously? Come on.
 

kswiston

Member
I worked a lot of different jobs in my late teens and early-mid twenties when I was going to school, including automotive factories, warehouses, and call centers. I am surprised that so many people haven't witnessed sexism in the workplace. Outside of my academic and teaching jobs (which have tended towards female dominated workplaces), it was pretty ubiquitous.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
should we ask why it's not "enough" to be banworthy?

if you're a woman, wouldn't that thread have made you uncomfortable?

if yes, then why is it not banworthy?

Okay obviously I'm not a mod but I do think that bans make sense for either blatantly offensive stuff or repeated patterns of negative behavior. That's the kind of situation where I'd rather see a mod step in and say "cut it out guys"
 

Interfectum

Member
I worked a lot of different jobs in my late teens and early-mid twenties when I was going to school, including automotive factories, warehouses, and call centers. I am surprised that so many people haven't witnessed sexism in the workplace. Outside of my academic and teaching jobs, it was pretty ubiquitous.

Yup. I think people have witnessed it but they don't know they have because it's so common and accepted.
 

leadbelly

Banned
It's not super difficult. On GAF, discuss things as if you were in a real-life conversation with acquaintances/ people you don't know particularly well, which includes women. (Because, well, you are.)

Would you, in a real-life conversation including women you don't know particularly well, look at a passing woman and say "OMG would totally bang! Amirite? Fist bumps all around!" Probably not, right? Well then also don't do it on GAF. Pretty simple.

Well, the majority of the posts were simply asking who she was from the looks of it, with one post making a joke about masturbating over her, which I suppose is a rather crude joke. I don't really see that as proof of harassment though. They weren't harassing the girl they were simply asking who she was because they were attracted to her.

Did I find the woman in that topic attractive? Upon first glance, absolutely. Shes obviously pretty and discussing a subject I care about. She is about as attractive as someone can be without actually speaking to them.

Where it crosses the line is that people vocalize it. For what? Is she going to stumble across the comment and seek you out? At best its off topic posting and at worst its meaningless posturing. It would be like seeing a picture of a toilet and posting about how you need to go to the bathroom. Uh, good for you, I guess?

I don't think they were looking to find her in real life, they wanted to know who she was so that they could find videos of her. That seems to be the motive.

My point simply was, is that inherent harassment and misogyny towards women, or simply an overt expression of sexuality? Whether it had anything to do with the thread is neither here nor there to me, it is more me wondering where the line is between expressing your own sexual attraction to someone and sexism or harassment.

I'm not sure people were viewing her as a gaffer, or some girl down the street, they were viewing her more like a minor celebrity. It's kind of like saying this celebrity is hot. And if you have ever been in the Girl Gaf thread, it is not like the girls on gaf don't do that.
 

Nairume

Banned
Well, you do have a point. I got kind of the same reaction while watching his video too, that, even if he's too lost in his view of the world to notice how fucked up it is, he should at least be able to notice how lame and cringeworthy his rants were. That laugh? Seriously? Come on.
That's the thing, you get yourself into the right echo chamber and it's easy to convince yourself that you are right and everybody else is wrong.
 
I don't think she's lying.
Then why were you doubting what she was saying?
Maybe so, but that doesn't seem to be a very productive way of seeking out any sort of solution. As I pointed out, if you perpetuate the stereotype of the average game developer as being perniciously sexist, why would any woman want to enter that environment?

It solves nothing, and arguably perpetuates the problem of gender imbalance by discouraging female applicants.
I've already talked about this. The videogame industry probably no more discourages women than, say, any other industry because it's a fear I (and women I've talked to) have to worry about everywhere. There are people in all sorts of industries trying to make them more welcoming to women. We're talking about the videogame industry specifically. In most cases, it helps to talk about it and make it more comfortable for women to talk about their experiences.
 
"If you killed yourself, I wouldn’t even fuck the corpse."


????????????????????????????
Who fucks a corpse in the first place?
 
Gaming in this point in time represents some cutting edge in technology in terms of graphic fidelity and how far game makers can push the consoles/PC's to its limit. The fact that people throw hate on women in this industry is disgusting and honestly just dumb. There is no need for hate in the gaming community and if anything we should be in open arms for anybody boy or girl who enjoys games as much as we do.

(Only focusing on the problem in the gaming industry and not the world as a whole)
 

Shinta

Banned
I get it. My experiences and observations don't count.

I'm not going to fall on my sword over this.

I think women have it hard.

I don't think she's lying.

I don't have any stats or hard evidence to back up my experiences other than what I'm telling you so I'll stop posting in this thread.

Carry on.

Your points were perfectly rational and valid. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm jumping into this thread late but I thought all you were saying is that you can't take someone's anecdotal evidence and extrapolate that as the norm for the entire industry at large.

As an example, you say that your anecdotal evidence is not representative of the whole industry either.

This seems like a pretty easy point to grasp, and something impossible to argue against without some kind of hypocrisy. As you said, your experiences apparently don't count, but other anecdotal evidence does. That's the hypocrisy, and it proves that they are overreaching specifically when they use anecdotal evidence to make claims about the entire industry at large.

The problems may indeed be systemic, but anecdotal evidence will never prove that. We need other, more accurate data to make that claim with any kind of accuracy.

I don't think people even need to argue about the systemic nature of it in this specific thread though. The individual accounts are horrible enough, and deserve attention and action. But if people do want to make broader statements about the industry at large, I think it would be much better to base those statements off something else that is more representative of it, and more accurate.
 
I think the issue is very deep (why do people feel the need to attack others in such way?) and its hard to come up with an easy answer to such a problem and I think it has much broader problems as well (in general online bullying via online gaming is completely outrageous and that's just the tip of the scale) but I think there is something we all can do..

Stop being okay with it when you hear it. I played WoW for a long time and not a week would go by where I would hear a 'make me a sandwich' joke or a 'get in the kitchen' joke made towards another female player (generally a guild mate) and while I never found the jokes funny I also never spoke up to actually say something like that is wrong. We have all herd the insane things some people say online a lot of us even hear our friends say it, the problem is we don't do anything about it so they think its okay and eventually we think its okay as well.

Those jokes may seem tame to whats written in this article but I think a lot of it is because no one around the people who make these comments ever tell them its wrong or even worse they laugh (thus encouraging it) or praise them for it.

It doesn't matter how little the comments are or how often you've herd them, they are wrong and every time you laugh at a sexist/racist/ect joke or do nothing (thus enabling) when someone does it to someone else you are letting that person believe what they are doing is right, and that's not okay.
 

Kreed

Member
I'm suddenly reminded of that thread from last year where one male game developer was chatting online with another female one (or maybe she was an editor for a online publication? can't recall off-hand) and all of a sudden he starts getting disgusting and talks about kissing vaginas...

Anyone have a link to that thread?

The sad part was where he used "being drunk, death in the family, bad day, etc..." to excuse his horrible behavior and people actually supported him while saying that the female he was chatting with wasn't strong enough in her responses to him and only encouraged it.

That's the stuff that makes me sick to my stomach. When people expect a victim to react in a specific way to deter a perpetrator in the middle of a harassing situation.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=755081
 

Kodeman

Member
Just throws me off that some people still live in a bubble world where women aren't capable. Humans are humans: everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Evaluate people on their contribution not their gender identity.

This is the best takeaway/advice you can get on the subject. Operate under the golden rule, and treat others as you would like to be treated. The women I work with in the industry are just as integral to the process as any of the men, and everyone knows it. I'm just glad I'm not working with assholes who would post the kind of garbage the op is talking about.
 

frequency

Member
again, I don't particulary want to comb through the thead (not my jarb!) but if this is going on -- should that really be tolerated on neogaf? honest question

I'm not a mod and back seat modding is disallowed but I don't think it should be tolerated.

I've regularly had to leave threads that I was otherwise interested in because the discussion moves towards things like that.
 

Mumei

Member
If you honestly aren't sure that harassment, threats, etc are more targeted at women than men, especially in male-dominated fields such as the game industry and especially on the internet where there are few consequences, please do us all a favor and read this thread and the linked article: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748748

Indeed. And re-posting this post from that topic:

This is a great response to the article in the OP:

In January 2006, I was a student at NYU School of Law, home for holiday break. I had just gotten my wisdom teeth out. I remember that, because I was on a lot of painkillers, and I kept thinking that maybe my cloudy brain just wasn’t comprehending what I was reading on an anonymous message board created for law students, called AutoAdmit. There were hundreds of threads about me, with comments including:

"Official Jill Filipovic RAPE thread"

"I want to brutally rape that Jill slut"

"I'm 98% sure that she should be raped"

“that nose ring is fucking money, rape her immediately”

“what a useless guttertrash whore, I hope that someone uses my pink, fleshy-textured cylindrical body to violate her”

“she deserves a brutal raping”

“Legal liability from posting pic of Jill fucking?”

“she’s a normal-sized girl that I’d bang violently, maybe you’d have to kill her afterwards”

Stuck at home and going swiftly down an online rabbit hole, I spent hours reading posts that extended beyond commenting on my rape-ability into users posting dozens of photos of me, commenting on my body, rating my physical attractiveness and listing my contact information. And halfway down one of those threads, I got to this:

“I actually happen to have met her before. She’s extremely pretty in person.”

It was an innocuous comment, even a kind one. But more followed, in other threads – people who claimed to know me in real life, or said they had at least met me, or seen me, or maybe talked to an ex boyfriend of mine. They had details about what I wore to class and what I said. I felt very suddenly like there wasn’t enough oxygen in the room to fill my lungs.

The only thing I really remember when I returned to school a few days later is my head feeling detached from my body. I had a bizarre mental image of myself walking around with my skull in a fishbowl, separated from my shoulders, like a deranged skeletal astronaut. It was partly the painkillers. But it was also a mental shortcut -- a short-circuit -- to protect my own mind from the trauma that quickly ate away at my confidence, my intelligence and my basic sense of safety.

This week, Amanda Hess published an extraordinary piece in Pacific Standard on gender harassment online. She weaves her own experience with a Twitter stalker into a broader narrative of incompetent law enforcement, inadequate laws and dismissive online communities. She quotes feminist bloggers who left their homes to hide from stalkers, and police officers who don’t know what Twitter is. She breathes life into the statistic that some three-quarters of online abuse targets women, and that the very act of going online with a female name often means sexually violent comments are lobbed in your direction. She outlines legal challenges to the status quo. And she points to the psychic cost of living in a world where you are constantly told you’re a target for violence.

“When people say you should be raped and killed for years on end, it takes a toll on your soul,” Hess quotes feminist writer Jessica Valenti as saying.

We want to believe that the Internet is different from “real life,” that “virtual reality” is a separate sphere from reality-reality. But increasingly, virtual space is just as “real” as life off of the computer. We talk to our closest friends all day long on G-Chat. We engage with political allies and enemies on Twitter and in blog comment sections. We email our moms and our boyfriends. We like photos of our cousin’s cute baby on Facebook. And if we’re writers, we research, publish and promote our work online. My office is a corner of my apartment, and my laptop is my portal into my professional world. There’s nothing “virtual” about it.

For me, it has been almost eight years to the day since I sat at that old desktop and read through those AutoAdmit posts. I have since graduated law school. I worked as a corporate lawyer for almost four years, and now I have the privilege of writing full time and pursuing a career and a life that I love. I’ve been running a feminist blog for almost a decade. I’m a 30-year-old woman who has been writing online long enough to be called every name in the book – I get so many insults I’ve even turned it into a contest on my blog (all-time favorite: “lesbian ham-beast”).

And yet writing about AutoAdmit, Googling the old posts to pull up the insults and the comments and the threats — essentially re-living that trauma from years ago — has my stomach in knots.

[...]

And then, the summer after I graduated and was studying for the bar exam, one of the AutoAdmit posters showed up at my door.

To be more specific, he showed up at the door of my clinic office, where I was studying on a nearly empty floor at the law school. I’m keeping details spare, but he was there, and he was having a psychological breakdown for which he was later hospitalized, but of course I didn’t know that at the time. He was ranting about AutoAdmit, how I misunderstood him, how I was sending him coded messages and how he knew that I had told the whole Internet he was a bad person. I had no memory of ever seeing this person before, and I couldn’t figure out if he had come in from the street or if he was a student. He was a big dude and he was blocking the doorway, and a friend of mine and I were inside the room, she sitting at her desk, paralyzed, and me standing with him towering over me, his pupils dilated and his fists clenched and his face bright red and sweaty, and I remember very calmly thinking: “This is how it happens. This is what happens right before someone hits you.” I was doing the calculations in my head: No one will hear me if I scream, so how fast can I get to the phone before he grabs me? What number do I even call? It’s an NYU phone – what’s NYU security’s number? Do I have to dial 9 before I call 911?

He didn’t hit me. When he took a breath from yelling, I interrupted him and said I didn’t think we had actually met, and that my name was Jill, and what was his? He was confused, and eventually he backed down and he left. I went home. I became more careful about locking the door.

He showed up again last year, this time in the Feministe comment section and later in my email inbox. This time, he was threatening to kill a variety of people. This time, he threatened the wrong person – not me – and this time, he was arrested.

Of course, he’s not the only one. There was the guy who showed up my law school to tell my professors how terrible I was, and who later emailed my entire law firm at least a dozen times in an attempt to get me fired. The endless anonymous Twitter accounts set up to harass feminist bloggers. The phone calls from strangers. The comments, still, on blogs and the ones I’m sure get left on the sites of bigger publications but that my editors now mercifully delete – because deleting awful comments is someone’s actual job, now.

Most of the time, it’s fine. Delete. Ignore. Retweet for a laugh. But every once in a while, when someone says something a little too personal or that suggests they know too much, I feel like that fishbowl-headed law student again.

[...]

I know these harassment stories are ubiquitous to the point of being boring. “Women get rape threats” is not news. Amanda Hess helpfully details the actual costs of these threats: The hours of work lost to tracking someone down online, to reporting someone to the police, to developing self-protection mechanisms when the police fail, to, in extreme cases, hiring professional enforcement for speaking gigs. For me, the costs included a law school education, professional contacts, and a robust work life.

The full thing (obviously) is at the link.​
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Then you keep banning them, again and again, each and every time you see it.

Because it's your responsibility. And, as I said before, the answer is not "do nothing, because it's hard." Change is hard.

I know. Baby steps. I just don't see this kind of thing ever changing on the internet.

Aside from the fact that most bans are easy to negate, the things that cause men to say these things to women are ingrained, perpetuated, handed down, it's like trying to rid the world of racism. I don't think it's possible, even in 100 lifetimes.

So while we can work much more directly to manage behaviours in plain sight (workplaces, public handouts, friend groups, etc..) the internet is giving voice to the hidden thoughts hat people have.

I don't see any way to police those, and they'll always find a way to be voiced.

Baby steps, I guess.
 

besada

Banned
Okay obviously I'm not a mod but I do think that bans make sense for either blatantly offensive stuff or repeated patterns of negative behavior. That's the kind of situation where I'd rather see a mod step in and say "cut it out guys"

Honestly, we're tired of giving warnings for things that should be self-evident. This is a forum that is widely read by people of different genders, different races, and different orientations. It doesn't seem like rocket science to understand that means this isn't a locker room where people can engage in "lads will be lads" behavior.

In future, I will absolutely be banning for people who think an appropriate response to a picture of a woman being posted is "I'd fuck her so hard, etc." We're in public, here. Posters on GAF are literally on an enormous stage, reading their lines out to a massive audience.

If folks can't understand that, and can't understand some basic, simple rules of decency, they can go somewhere else.

I'm not a mod and back seat modding is disallowed but I don't think it should be tolerated.

I've regularly had to leave threads that I was otherwise interested in because the discussion moves towards things like that.

But you are a poster in this community, which means I would be happy to receive a PM from you regarding inappropriate behavior. I don't always do what people want when they PM me, but I always look and make a judgement.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Well, the majority of the posts were simply asking who she was from the looks of it, with one post making a joke about masturbating over her, which I suppose is a rather crude joke. I don't really see that as proof of harassment though. They weren't harassing the girl they were simply asking who she was because they were attracted to her.



I don't think they were looking to find her in real life, they wanted to know who she was so that they could find videos of her. That seems to be the motive.

My point simply was, is that inherent harassment and misogyny towards women, or simply an overt expression of sexuality? Whether it had anything to do with the thread is neither here nor there to me, it is more me wondering where the line is between expressing your own sexual attraction to someone and sexism or harassment.

I'm not sure people were viewing her as a gaffer, or some girl down the street, they were viewing her more like a minor celebrity. It's kind of like saying this celebrity is hot. And if you have ever been in the Girl Gaf thread, it is not like the girls on gaf don't do that.

You dont think that is objectifing to the woman? That people ask her name to look up videos of her to oogle her because she's pretty?

The problem isnt large in a single case, but year after year, day after day? That would get so old. I dont like to make this analogy because it can open a whole other can of worms, but assuming you are a straight male, would you like it if men routinely asked for your information so they could oogle your pictures?

And again, its off topic in the first place. Its succumbing to animal instincts. These people should exercise a filter.
 

Gorthaur

Banned
Let me ask a question:
What would happen, if there was a female quota in game devolopment... let's say at least 30f/70m maybe?

(and not just "let's hire more female writers and pre-production design aritsts", but for every department!)

What would happen?

- Would this have a regulating effect on the male-chauvinism?
- Would guys quit and get into the automotive industry or some other female-safe employment-island?
- Would we get better or worse games?
- Would we get fewer games?
- Would AAA games be more diverse?
- Would there be more female gamers?
- Less male teenage gamers?!??
People need to be hired based on pure skill, not because of their gender.
 

fred

Member
Well apparently you don't work everywhere since those some women seem do expereince being treated differently, besides from your userman I can infer you are a man. HOW would you know what is going on behind the scene? How would you know the hiring processes or even what happens in the higher levels than QA? You don't. I am not a woman, so I don't know but from my experience as a black man, I can tell you that the way you get treated is usually not apparent enough for the outside viewer to know aka you wouldn't know unless you were part of it.

I think it was perfectly clear from my post that I was having a laugh. But of course a sense of humour isn't appropriate in a thread like this, right..? Anyone that has ever worked in the industry would have found that amusing (even though unfortunately it is true).

Perhaps you need a sense of humour transplant..?
 

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Your points were perfectly rational and valid. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm jumping into this thread late but I thought all you were saying is that you can't take someone's anecdotal evidence and extrapolate that as the norm for the entire industry at large.

As an example, you say that your anecdotal evidence is not representative of the whole industry either.

This seems like a pretty easy point to grasp, and something impossible to argue against without some kind of hypocrisy. As you said, your experiences apparently don't count, but other anecdotal evidence does. That's the hypocrisy, and it proves that they are overreaching.

The problems may indeed be systemic, but anecdotal evidence will never prove that.

I don't think people even need to argue about the systemic nature of it in this specific thread though. The individual accounts are horrible enough, and deserve attention and action. But if people do want to make broader statements about the industry at large, I think it would be much better to base those statements off something else that is more representative of it, and more accurate.

So we're back to attempts at downplaying the accounts of women in the industry.

Have you ever thought that there's more women out there that HAVE had some fucked up experiences but remain silent out of fear of their job?

This is getting ridiculous. Are some of you playing naive because you're afraid of acknowledging the world can be ugly? That's the only way I'll understand this ignorance.
 
Honestly, we're tired of giving warnings for things that should be self-evident. This is a forum that is widely read by people of different genders, different races, and different orientations. It doesn't seem like rocket science to understand that means this isn't a locker room where people can engage in "lads will be lads" behavior.

In future, I will absolutely be banning for people who think an appropriate response to a picture of a woman being posted is "I'd fuck her so hard, etc." We're in public, here. Posters on GAF are literally on an enormous stage, reading their lines out to a massive audience.

If folks can't understand that, and can't understand some basic, simple rules of decency, they can go somewhere else.
You don't know how happy this makes me. I remember just a few years ago a policy like that wouldn't happen, even though I was bothered by it then. But now? That's really great to hear.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
I've already talked about this. The videogame industry probably no more discourages women than, say, any other industry because it's a fear I (and women I've talked to) have to worry about it everywhere. There are people in all sorts of industries trying to make them more welcoming to women. We're talking about the videogame industry specifically. In most cases, it helps to talk about it and make it more comfortable for women to talk about their experiences.

Yes. But do you not see how articles that conflate hateful tweets and posts on the internet with abuses within the workplace by sticking them together under the umbrella of the "videogame industry" is not helpful?

As an individual I have no control over what some moron (often on the other side of the world) writes on twitter, but I can (and will) do something about a colleague who's acting inappropriately.
 

Shinta

Banned
So we're back to attempts at downplaying the accounts of women in the industry.

This is severely insulting. If you have literally nothing to base this statement off of, you really shouldn't say it. I was talking about methodology, and nothing more.

Read posts more carefully before casually accusing people of reprehensible things.
 
Yes. But do you not see how articles that conflate hateful tweets and posts on the internet with abuses within the workplace by sticking them together under the umbrella of the "videogame industry" is not helpful?

As an individual have no control over what some moron (often on the other side of the world) writes on twitter, but I can (and will) do something about a colleague who's acting inappropriately.

Um, it's still harassment when working in the videogame industry.
 

E92 M3

Member
well, that depends on personality.

you're willing to get arrested for that? don't jump the gun otherwise you're not that different
[/QUOTE]

Obviously I won't just start throwing punches right away, but I will always defend her. I've only had one incident like that happen in my life. Also, I don't think a cop will arrest anyone defending someone else from threats.
 

Tangerinediesel

Neo Member
I don't know about you guys, but my friends and I would never even think of subjecting our chicks to public chat in games. We've seen how douchey some guys get so we just keep things to party chat when they're playing with us.
 

Briarios

Member
People need to be hired based on pure skill, not because of their gender.

That's ludicrous. Diversity adds unique elements to any team. Different backgrounds lead to a variety of solutions to any given problem. There is no such thing as "pure" skill. If you have someone who is a better coder, but just isn't as good of a team player, most managers would take slower coding over someone who would bring disharmony to the group, slowing everyone down.
 

jimi_dini

Member
Replace "Anonymity" with "Lack of Consequence" and I think it's closer to true.

The comic implies that "normal people" act like assholes because of reasons.

I don't believe that for a second. Normal people don't act like that. Assholes act like that. The comic is just an excuse for assholes.

Let's just look at this "gem" here:
"Women are the niggers of gender," the email said. "If you killed yourself, I wouldn’t even fuck the corpse."

Let's assume that no mod would ban you for saying that. Would you say that? I sure wouldn't. Why should I? Why would I? It's sick and disgusting. I wouldn't say anything like that even if I was extremely pissed about someone.
 

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Honestly, we're tired of giving warnings for things that should be self-evident. This is a forum that is widely read by people of different genders, different races, and different orientations. It doesn't seem like rocket science to understand that means this isn't a locker room where people can engage in "lads will be lads" behavior.

In future, I will absolutely be banning for people who think an appropriate response to a picture of a woman being posted is "I'd fuck her so hard, etc." We're in public, here. Posters on GAF are literally on an enormous stage, reading their lines out to a massive audience.

If folks can't understand that, and can't understand some basic, simple rules of decency, they can go somewhere else.

You have no idea how relieved I feel reading this. Thanks so much!
 
I grew up playing SNES with my female cousins and nowadays my partner is really the only fellow gamer I interact with in person, so getting used to the notion of women playing games or by extension making games has never been terribly difficult. I can't imagine how small and petty you have to be to devote time out of your day to harassing someone. What do these guys think is on the line that it warrants such careful scrutiny?

Pretty much the same. It still blows my mind when people get up in arms about this or even make a comment on females. Even when they're being passive offensive. I don't treat anyone differently. I once told a female to fuck off (like I would anyone else) who was annoying us in Gears which was met with dudes saying "awww go easy on her etc". It wasn't because she was female, it's because she was crap. Keep in mind I had to female team mates. It's like, c'mon stop thinking about it.

Also, online anonymity.
 

Mesoian

Member
People need to be hired based on pure skill, not because of their gender.

Honestly, considering there are so many artistic aspects in creating a game, having a different prospective might actually benefit a studio opposed to having someone who can come up with the best recreation of the stuff that's already out there.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Honestly, we're tired of giving warnings for things that should be self-evident. This is a forum that is widely read by people of different genders, different races, and different orientations. It doesn't seem like rocket science to understand that means this isn't a locker room where people can engage in "lads will be lads" behavior.

In future, I will absolutely be banning for people who think an appropriate response to a picture of a woman being posted is "I'd fuck her so hard, etc." We're in public, here. Posters on GAF are literally on an enormous stage, reading their lines out to a massive audience.

If folks can't understand that, and can't understand some basic, simple rules of decency, they can go somewhere else.
Oh, sure absolutely. I'm actually really glad to hear that, it always always bothers me when I see it. I was just thinking of how many bans would be involved with every response of "hnnnnngh" or "would"
 

Aeana

Member
I don't know about you guys, but my friends and I would never even think of subjecting our chicks to public chat in games. We've seen how douchey some guys get so we just keep things to party chat when they're playing with us.

Well, not all of us women are lucky enough to have men who look out for us by dictating what we are or are not exposed to.
 

Mesoian

Member
That's ludicrous. Diversity adds unique elements to any team. Different backgrounds lead to a variety of solutions to any given problem. There is no such thing as "pure" skill. If you have someone who is a better coder, but just isn't as good of a team player, most managers would take slower coding over someone who would bring disharmony to the group, slowing everyone down.

There's a time and place where what he's saying is true, and there's a time and place where what he said is not necessarily the letter of the law.

The video game industry is the latter. But if it was something like accounting, I don't really care what someone's background is, I want the person who can crunch the numbers the best.

I am assuming bans will be both ways for hot guy pictures as well?

We should still get to have sexy pictures of everyone, we just can't be creepy about it.
 
Top Bottom