SquiddyCracker
Banned
I kinda decided to be attracted to big tits after my last girlfriend, because they were pretty fun to play with.
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If you wouldn't date transgender people, where do you begin to regard their gender?
- Thread starter wildfire
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I kinda decided to be attracted to big tits after my last girlfriend, because they were pretty fun to play with.
I think it'd argue that a choice that is made on a subconscious level isn't really a choice, but I think I can see your point when it's about arguing the reason behind a preference.
QuickSilverD
Member
dude attraction is not a choice, you're saying people are bigots for not getting their dick hard when they see a woman of [insert minority race here]. for example I like redheads, more than any other kind, but I didn't wake up one day and said to myself, "you know what women with red hair are superior to all others" it is just preference, it is innate, there are probably a million factors involved but prejudice I don't think it is one. wasn't there a study recently that show places traditionally considered racist are more likely to search for interracial porn or something like that?
User 73706
Banned
Where in the world did I say that? I haven't used the term bigots once in this thread. You're also skewing semantics; preference to the preferred is prejudice to the subjugated. Redheads aren't a race, but saying "I like redheads more than any other kind" is just as much putting non-redheads down just as much as it is bringing redheads up. You also can't say "it is just preference, it is innate," and then immediately try and support it by saying there are "probably a million factors involved." You just dismantled your own argument! People aren't born liking redheads more than any other hair color. Their upbringing and culture and life experiences shape that, so you can't in all good faith say it's just something "ground-in" to their worldview.
You can't honestly say that somehow justifies it or suggests "they aren't so bad after all," can you? It's a weird example to bring up in the first place, but the reason for that has to do with the notion of guilty pleasures and taboo subjects in any given area.
That final point is truly absurd; there is obviously a tremendous difference between something created in utero and something grafted and sculpted together surgically. Perhaps if surgery consisted in suddenly altering the phenotype so that the person spontaneously and organically grew new components, you'd have a point. But since that is science fiction and will likely remain so, the distinction is very real, and many people are going to be bothered by something surgically cobbled together, seeing it legitimately as a very different kind of thing from a naturally produced body.
But putting that reality aside, there would still be a distinction even in some futuristic ideal world in which science could truly alter the body in a miraculous manner. The reason is that a person's sexuality always carries along not just their body, and not just their chosen identification, but also the way in which their desire is lodged in the two.
What I mean is perceptible with a thought experiment from the web: if one were to exchange in a kind of sex chat online with someone posing as a female, and then were to find out that the person was male, would not the reaction of some disgust or at least an immediate shift in ones response to the same words be expected? It would, because those words now mean something very different when you are made aware of the man at a keyboard fetishizing his enactment of a fictional female body, which is very different from a person who is female writing the same things. The exact same words carry a very different desire lodged in them in the two cases, and being made aware of it suddenly shifts the interpretation, not just subjectively but by making one aware of a tone that they had not yet picked up on.
Now, the case of post-op transgenderism isn't exactly like that; first of all, the scenario above is much more like transvestism as a fetish, which is very different. Second of all, we're talking about a new body that is at least to some degree that of the presented gender (and again, let's get fictional and pretend science could make it identical). But the person's desire is still lodged somewhat differently in their body from that of a natural female, and being made aware of that fact could indeed provoke a legitimate reaction of suddenly seeing all the same things (body, gestures) in a new light that is no longer attractive at all sexually. Because the history of this person now turns out to be that of having once lived in another body, inhabiting it and feeling disjointed from it, then working to reshape that body to fit a different desire and self-relation. And that history of the person's sexuality does matter; it is a legitimately different phenomenon from someone who was born with a body and whose desires emerged from it and in concert with it. To insist otherwise is to neglect just how much our person and our relationship to ourselves is always bodily, not just in a head that is secondarily attached to this or that manifestation. Heck, even simple things like being obese versus thin cause a very different relation to your body, and a formerly-obese person can carry and comport themselves a bit differently from others; and so on with many examples, like how an extremely tall friend of mine carries a whole set of mannerisms and ways of moving his head, or standing a certain way, that have clearly emerged from towering over people, and that would most certainly leave traces even if he were one day cut short. They vary in each case, yes, but they matter.
You're calling almost everyone a bigot, then. Attempting to shame people into being willing to have sex with someone who's trans is ridiculous and idiotic. You have no business telling other people who they should be sleeping with, and it's not a given to say that "the enlightened position -- which I've now reached -- is to have my mind and body react identically to trans people and cis people," as trans people and cis people are flat-out not identical. Acknowledging that is okay, and has nothing to do with wanting the trans community to have equal rights under the law and respect in personal interactions, or considering the transgender state to be a legitimate human condition. Forcing yourself to be attracted identically when you otherwise wouldn't is not respect.
John Kowalski
Banned
oh god the streams, they're crossing
Considering the OP was initially about bathrooms, this a great post.
Well for example we all have rights to privacy. But some of those are conditional and when it comes to the gender conditions many people don't see trans as the same as cis.
You are right it is ridiculous QuickSilver. I was pointing it out as 1 of 2 extreme ends for the range of solution to resolve the way some of us conditionally accept a transgenders gender in one case but won't accept it in others. I would hope if people were to look for a solution it would be more towards the humane approach.
The fact that those in the trans community think that nobody should see their parts are different even though they are 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt factually different is absurd.
It is not the same. We do not have to pretend they are the same. We do have to respect and treat with dignity your choices and you as a person, but that has literally nothing to do with a willingness to put our dick in your changed dick or allow our pussy to be fucked by your changed vagina.
It is not the same. We do not have to pretend they are the same. We do have to respect and treat with dignity your choices and you as a person, but that has literally nothing to do with a willingness to put our dick in your changed dick or allow our pussy to be fucked by your changed vagina.
Or maybe she's just psychically attracted to black men?
Sorry, but if you're saying you would tell a woman to her face she isn't progressive for only dating black men, I think you're absolutely full of shit.
JonathanNemo
Member
Some part of this feels like the controversy that used to (and apparently still does) happen over women coloring their hair. Or any negative stigma that comes with having plastic surgery. And I don't feel like that sort of prejudice over having made or planning to make a change in gender identity really deserves to be on the same level.
How much priority do you really want to give to what you're given a birth, versus what you can change later on at life? And can you accept that a person could be mentally more feminine or masculine, and their body doesn't match their mind?
The concept of the transgender mind is far more interesting that it may appear at surface value; it's not "dude decided to be a woman", there is far more biology behind the transgender identity than you may realize.
One of my former friends took part in a 2013 study in Taiwan to study differences in the brains of transgendered folk versus cisgendered folk. It's still a field that's relatively young in terms of research, but the science behind the transgender identity is absolutely fascinating. It's more a product of nature than you may think.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I did read all of what you said despite the selected quoting (not in bad faith!) I personally feel that your comparison, particularly with the thought experiment, leans heavily on some misunderstandings about the transgendered mind.
My preferences are there or not. Don't have a choice. I've had people insinuate it is bigotry, but sorry I do not agree.
User 73706
Banned
It's not about forcing yourself, though - that implies it's some kind of esoteric acquired taste you have to force down until you're okay with it. It's about legitimately educating people on modern notions of progress and understanding. If people in all good faith take what Mumei's trying to say at its intended subjective value, and still don't change their standpoints, but learn to accurately justify their own opinions, it's still ultimately a step in the right direction.
You're welcome to think that. "Only dating black men" is too wide a descriptor for me to even make judgment. It's about personal motivation. Again, if it's because she comes from an area or culture where her and black men just happen to have similar interests, and all of these men she's interested in happen to be black, that's okay. If she is actively, deliberately in the pursuit if black males because of their blackness and nothing else, if nothing else matters as long as they're black, that is completely, absolutely not progressive.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
When I was a kid I always told myself and everyone that I would marry an Asian girl. For the longest time thats how I was. And then I got out of high school and found I love all kindsa women.
And what if they're just attracted to black men? Why do you want to nitpick the reason? Why does there HAVE to be a reason on why someone is attracted to a specific type of person? Hell, if you walked up to a person and interrogated them with "why do you only date black men? I bet its because youre trying to rebel against your parents! Or maybe just becUse theyre black!" thats wrong, dude.
John Kowalski
Banned
I've not chosen, but i've sought to understand what stood behind those preferences and fetishes. A lot of times certain things could be easily tracked and arced back to early experiences i had as a kid, like red hair (a cousin who cared for me when i was sick as a kid) and tomboys (sweet andrea). Also the more a girl looks like Anna Friel the more i want to jiggle her peepers.
Yeah, I find loud and wild women attractive, but it ends terribly so I consciously avoid them now.
I just don't understand the need to be so hostile and antagonistic. If I had my nose or ear reconstructed, you wouldn't refer to those body parts as "lumps of meat shaped like a nose / ear", would you? Regardless of your dating preferences, some people seem to have extremely strong and negative feelings about this topic.
Maybe I can't speak in behalf of them as a biological male who identifies as such, but man, some empathy and tact is needed when discussing these issues.
No, they don't have to (and probably shouldn't).
No one should needs approval for their preferences. Justification for ideas is only ever required if it affects other people, and even then it would never be enough.
I am also concerned by what you mean by accurately. For all you know, everyones reasoning posted is accurate as to why they wouldn't date trans women.
QuickSilverD
Member
you're implying it Sub-zero, by asking people to justify their sexual preferences as if those need any justification besides, "because that's how I feel".
and when I say attraction is probably the results of a million factors I am not talking about any subconscious cultural bias or racism at work here, I'm mostly referring to genetic and environment stuff, I am not am expert in dating culture, but I know who I want to fuck is not rooted in ideology
No, I'm trying to show that even having "racist" ideology may not preclude someone from finding whatever race they hate attractive.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
That's a great word; I'm going to add that one to my vocabulary.
Wait, what? Do you honestly expect people to consider a person who is by all outward appearances a male a female just because they say they are? I thought the debate here was on the power of surgical alteration of sex and hormone therapy. You can think of yourself however you like but to act like other people don't have the right to form their own opinions is totally unfair. If I applied for and received scholarships intended for students of African American backgrounds purely on the basis of a deep personal conviction that I was black, do you think the registrar personnel would be without objection when they met me in person and found that that was not the case?
The key problem with a lot of you guys in this thread, no matter what your opinion, is that you seem to think that other people don't have the right to hold a different view, or even worse, that we have to justify our opinions to you.
There is a large difference between reconstructing something that was there, and taking your genitals and altering them to emulate the opposite genitals.
If you want empathy and tact stop accusing people who see your genitals for what they actually are of being bigots because of it.
User 73706
Banned
This is a disembodied discussion board. People are free to be who they want here. It's not like real-life happenstance where things happen in real time and require immediate action and reaction. These are hypotheticals where the point of the discussion is to analyze and explain. Nobody is "just attracted" to anything. There is always a reason. People don't just pull shit from thin air. Is it possible they aren't consciously aware of what this reason is? Sure. But psychologists and psychoanalyses exist for a reason. Subjectivity has to be rooted in some type of corporeal objectivity, no matter how infinitesimal. Someone having misguided views on people of color could have to do with them growing up in an environment that was full of a lot of institutionalized, racially-charged goings-on. This environment, further still, was spurred by the notion that one race was better than the other, and going back even further, lent itself to the notions of conquest and empires expanding their reach. No, of course I'm not expecting this hypothetical chick to give me a history lesson on manifest destiny and cite Guns, Germs and Steel in her answer. That's ridiculous. But this is not a medium in which our responses are dictated in real time and real instinct. People can be as long or short as they want in their responses, and if the thread's developed an environment of explanation backing up discourse, it's only fair to assume people are obligated to justify their answers. You honestly think that I'm going to be on some fervent enough shit to scream at women I don't know in public that they're setting progress back thousands of years because they're on a date with a person of color? I'm not trying to shake responses out of people like a god damn grade school bully. I'm a patient man. If you need minutes, hours, days to engage in so much as a sliver of soul-searching to try and claw your way to so much as a grain of tangible thinking, by all means, do so.
But the last thing I'm going to do here is just sit around and pretend everything happens because entropy picked opinions out of a god-forsaken hat and handed them off. It just doesn't work that way. People are products of their environments, no matter how subconsciously.
I just want to clarify that I wasn't trying to insinuate that anyone's a biggot. I don't personally want to make judgments like that.
When I was younger I was highly attracted to big muscles and 6-packs. Then I realized that I was fat and unfortunate-looking and that I'd never get a guy with big muscles and a 6-pack, so as I got older, I consciously started going after bigger hairy guys because that's basically what I was. I shaped my tastes based on what I thought I would be attracted to me. I knew from the get-go that I wanted penis, but how that penis was presented is what I basically shaped myself. (crude, but I get my point across.) Now, I don't find myself attracted to muscle-y guys, unless they are guys in strongman competitions, but those guys never have 6 packs and they're definitely not small.
I was more just curious if this was a "common" thing, or if I just happened to be very self-reflective at an early age.
Okay, this is going to go full circle.
The post you quoted is complaining about the unnecessary imagery and tone to describe simply that you don't appreciate it to be the same. It's actually needless to be so blunt because unfortunately, this is still a sensitive matter regardless.
Now I know why it is getting to this. Because no matter what you say it's like a child repeatedly asking "but why though" back to you over and over. Just state the view and leave it at that, you don't need the last word. I am sure they understand you don't consider them to be the same. Until the both of you are able to talk about the biochemistry of it and compare molecules and shit, it is going to get increasingly offensive for no reason.
Congrats, you discovered that preferences can and do change. That doesn't mean preferences aren't real and meaning.
way to miss the point. of all people, i'm sure fucking MUMEI isn't trying to shame anybody into doing anything, just trying to get people to think a little critically about the prejudices they might hold, and to unpack them and explore WHY they feel that way, and to make it clear that people can and do change. none of us are born thinking 'wow yeah i definitely wouldn't fuck a trans person'. it's learned, and it can be unlearned, with some effort.
finding someone hot, fucking them, and then all of a sudden not finding them hot anymore when you find out they're trans...that's fucked up.
God Dayumm
Banned
Matters of dating and attraction need no justification, demanding one is sexual harassment.
As I said, some of the reasons given in this thread are bigoted but that's the end of it. You can't shame people about opinions on their personal sex lives no matter how wrong they are.
I just googled "born without nose" and at the very least found the case of a baby. If the baby eventually gets a "fake" nose, it'd be incredibly rude and unnecessarily antagonistic to refer to his nose as anything else than a nose, IMO. Of course that would be unlikely to happen because people don't have strong, negative feelings towards people who are born without noses.
In fairness...I would say it's actually a true statement to say that the vast majority of people are indeed at least somewhat bigoted in this regard. Someone isn't necessarily bigoted if they don't find themselves attracted to someone who is trans...but declaring, point blank, that they could never, ever find any trans person attractive even if they are physically identical to a cis man/woman, and that they would in fact lose any attraction to a person upon finding out that they are trans, is, in my opinion, an expression of prejudice, even if it's not as pronounced a form of bigotry as wanting to legally discriminate against trans people. What we find attractive in other people isn't completely separate from the influence of society and its values, after all - it's a very common sentiment to hear slurs and insults like "trannies are freaks," "they're just men/women in drag," etc. Society still barely even acknowledges that identities other than "man" and "woman" exist. I don't think Mumei would advocate forcing people to find others attractive, but ideally there needs to be more education in the public at large about sex and gender identity (I strongly suspect that the number of people saying they could never find any trans person date-able would decrease with more widespread acceptance and tolerance).
JonathanNemo
Member
That is absolutely not what I got from Mumei's post.
If the original question is, if you find them entirely attractive and a wonderful candidate as a mate or someone to fool around with but for the fact that they are transgendered, that sounds to me like that person might have some issues with the transgendered identity. Especially with the implicit view that someone cisgendered with all the same attributes is perfectly wonderful in every way.
I am not showering a bottle of holy water over your head shouting you must, you must! But I do think it's absolutely worthwhile for people who haven't thought about transgendered issues to sit down and really think through a few things. Maybe you won't change your mind. It's okay. We're human and flawed enough as it is, even at birth.
I had a funny experience with dating someone who turned out to be transgendered, and I regret most things I did in the 24 hours that followed after I found out. But despite that, and the regrets I carry, it made me do a bunch of growing up inside. That wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Maybe the problem is the use of the word "bigot"? But I can clearly see many folks talking about how transgendered X is not as good as assigned-at-birth X. And I do see that position coming off as bigoted, a stubborn belief in the superiority of one's own views regarding what we're given straight out of the womb.
Please don't do this. I didn't say that they aren't real or meaningful. All I asked was whether people can and/or did change. I'm not even suggesting that they *should* change.
And getting a fake nose is not the same as modifying your penis into a makeshift vagina or vice versa. It also doesn't have relevancy to a very intimate thing like one's sexuality and preferences.
Perhaps you choose to think that a straight man can put his dick into a modified dick and still be straight. Others might have a worldview different from that, and they aren't wrong.
mind explaining this before i actually put some effort in a post to respond to it?
Okay. But it doesn't have to me. Well done to you if you had unlearned whatever, but what EviLore is saying is that people do not need to be told their lack of interest to see how open their preferences can become makes them sub-human, bigots, stupid or otherwise.
We are complex creatures and whatever is predisposed or nurtured by society makes us who we are. We do not owe it to others to learn to want to fuck them. We DO owe it to others to now be grossed out by their existence however.
There is a distinction.
On the subject of whether or not people can change their preferences at will, that will never really be known for sure. I'd imagine that if it were possible, then certain changes would range from easy to nigh impossible depending on the person. Most of what feel the need to purposefully change comes from motivation.
In relevance to this thread, is a straight man meets an OMG smoking hot trans woman who totally gets him, and he is normally not comfortable, he probably have the motivation to change up his preferences to not care for his own sake.
There is a good Vsauce episode on how much people do change despite not realising that they will. Favourite food, movie, music etc. A decade can make ones preferences unrecognisable, but there is always some element that sticks. Be it memory or a person's soul (or genetic personality?) is philosophy in this day and age.
I made it clear that I'm not talking about dating preferences, but about not being unnecessarily offensive, didn't I?
User 73706
Banned
That's entirely untrue. If they can shame individuals because they don't find them sexually attractive, it's completely fair for those shamed individuals to shame them right back.
This thread is a gift, truly
so now anything that is penis based automatically denies your heterosexuality
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I agree that the nose analogy was really clumsy/borderline irrelevant when specifically discussing issues relating to romantic/sexual intimacy and the bodyparts involved, but your second statement is also quite a stretch. I think it's fine for a dude to not want to date a transgender woman (I am one of those dudes myself), but I don't think a guy who does is any "less" heterosexual.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
You are something else
No they're wrong and so are you for designating someones sexuality as 'wrong' if they're with a transgender person.
When you call someone a bigot or prejudiced for holding certain opinion or committing certain acts you are trying to shame them into changing their opinions or actions, that is the point of those extremely negative words. If his point was merely to get people to reflect on their opinions his would not have used such language.
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
That right there is my cognitive roadblock regarding this entire thing. Trying to break down the intricacies of that situation would be really difficult and is the main part of the reason why I made my original stance on the issue.
chronos4590
Member
But this isnt where Muemi is getting at. If you find someone who is trans physically attractive and sexy and romantically attractive at that too, You like that person regardless of knowledge of their transition and where ever they may be in their transitional process or post transition. (sorry if any language is problematic in anyway, correct me if i am) Its more about staying open about things and learning to accept and unpack the things we learned from having a world split into this strict binary of only male and female and that only applies to people if their gender and their sex match what we created as our social construct on gender and sex. Its not about forcing anyone at all
I don't know if I agree with the assessment that all people aren't born liking redheads more than any other hair color. Yes, people are a product of their environment, and yes, the upbringing and life experience of people does affect their opinions, but I don't think that all opinions and preferences are necessarily rooted entirely in these things. For something as simple as hair color I think for a lot of people (I know for me), it comes down to aesthetic preference. I recall reading somewhere that infants express preferences towards a certain color in this way from a very young age. People just think that one color is inherently more pleasing to the eye, that's why some people can also choose to wear clothes of a certain color or buy products of a certain color. I'm not saying that everyone's life experiences don't necessarily shape their preferences either; I'm sure there are lots of people out their who have a preference for redheads due to some life experience regarding some people with red hair or maybe just the color red in general, but I just don't think that's the case for everyone.
Count Dookkake
Member
I can't accept that I must want to fuck you in order to view you as a human with rights, dignity, and value.
And I want to stop there because while you made a thoughtful post I have the nagging thought that some things can be really hard to quantify. Whatever the reason is doesn't need to be psychoanalyzed.
Why do most people like red and blue? Why do people like spicy food? I can definitely tell why I'm attracted to most things but sometimes I wonder what the fuck my body is reacting to at times. I've been staying out of the race discussion that came up very early on because a lot of energy and thought was needed to focus on the transgender debate.
John Kowalski
Banned
we're through the looking glass now
In relevance to this thread, no one has done this.
If you are speaking generally, then I would agree if it weren't basically two wrongs for the sake of a heated argument.
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