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Percy · Feb 21, 2015

Once again we're seeing gameplay opinions mixed in with hard data in a tech analysis article because... uh...

Why again? Eurogamer already reviewed the game I thought :/

Seanspeed said:
Leadbetter does articles on all sorts of things, many of which have nothing to do with gaming. Its just some of you so entrenched in console warfare that you're seeing the enemy everywhere even when you're at the supermarket.

As has been said already, this does come across as rich coming from someone who is a regular fixture in Neogaf console war squabbling. You've felt the need to make snide/sniping posts in my direction on more than one occasion for critically/negatively posting about Xbox One related matters.

Not something uninvested people do.

onQ123 · Feb 21, 2015

Why the hell did I read Ryse 3 times in the OP & Order only once?

EGM1966 · Feb 21, 2015

Gbraga said:
Thank god for fast loading. :')

I hate long load times and in particular in narrative titles so I like it when I see it. It is impressive in this case given detail level too. Many games chug loading a lot of content which is a chore.

It sure helps with the horrid insta-fail stealth too

Gbraga · Feb 21, 2015

onQ123 said:
Why the hell did I read Ryse 3 times in the OP & Order only once?

Because it's an analysis on The Order, why would they have to keep saying "The Order" all the time?

The 3 times it's mentioned:

"The upscaling artefacts in Ryse, minimal as they were, are eliminated here"

here = Order, and also saying that it's better in The Order

"The presentation also calls to mind our thoughts on Ryse when it was released in late 2013 - with a different approach to rendering that is more film-like in nature."

Again, just comparing Ryse and The Order, which is natural, since they're both graphical showcases

"In our first look at Ryse, we quoted a Hollywood CG professional on image quality and, reading it again in 2015, it feels completely relevant to the approach Ready at Dawn has taken:"

I wonder which 2015 Ready at Dawn game he's talking about...

I really don't get what you're complaining about.

Respawn · Feb 21, 2015

PANTHEON said:
How do you watch movies that use the now classic 21:9 standard? Most Blu-Rays are 21:9, and even Beyond: Two Souls went for a wide format. I love it and wish people would get over themselves. It is a great composition and if anyone wants to use it, especially with how iconic it is to visual media after decades as a standard, then I want them to use it. I prefer it over 16:9.

You shouldn't have wasted your time replying to him. I laughed at his post.

BeeDog · Feb 21, 2015

Seanspeed said:
Never said Bloodborne looked like crap. I talked about not liking the CA in the game, though. I'm getting frustrated with CA in games in general. And I did say it wasn't a standout graphics title(which its not). But I still think it generally looks awesome, especially the art style, which is always more important to me than technically accomplished graphics.

Sorry for not liking Uncharted? Not sure what that has to do with anything. I thought TLOU was great, though.

And yes, Forza coming to PC would be awesome. So would PC streaming to XB1(since I would like a streaming PC for the living room anyways). Simple fact is that Microsoft, unlike Sony, have potential ties with PC due to Windows, so there is a lot for me to be interested in. Yet even so, I've said in other threads that I'm probably more likely to pick up a PS4 at some point, especially with Project Morpheus coming up.

You're really just proving my point more and more man. I happen to post in all sorts of topics. I'm sure its possible to selectively quote little bits here and there to craft some sort of narrative, but that's not very honest and it makes you look like the paranoid type I'm talking about, seeing 'the enemy' where they're not.

If you stop being so confrontational and acting as the beacon of objectivity all the time, especially in these heated Sony topics, people probably wouldn't be so quick to judge you again and again. You do have a tendency to pop up with some non-uttered agenda of weeding out "paranoid" fanboys and taking the high road, which gets grating after a while and which looks especially bad for someone that repeatedly mentions that you have no stake in "console wars". You are a good enough poster that should know not to go down this road again and again.

Anyway, to be on topic, I am surpremely impressed by what The Order is bringing from an audio-visual perspective. The black bars don't bother me nearly as much as I thought they would do, though I'd preferred to have all of the screen area utilized. And let's not forget the quick load times, extremely well done by RaD. The only blemishes I have noticed so far are (1) somewhat poor texture filtering, (2) very non-interactive environments, and (3) low geometry details for distant objects (quite noticeable while running on the Whitechapel rooftops in the early chapters). Still, the game is very cohesive and with a clear artistic vision, which goes a very long way.

1.21Gigawatts · Feb 21, 2015

Seanspeed said:
I would say that it lacks(by far) the consistency in visuals that The Order has.

Also shader quality. If I look at wood in The Order it looks more like wood than wood in AssassinsCreed.
I also feel like the lighting is better in The Order, especially in dark environments The Order looks absolutely phenomenal.
And character models and character animations, especially when it comes to NPC(which is very understandable since AC has dozens of NPCs on screen while TO only a hand full at most).

dark10x · Feb 21, 2015

Once again we're seeing gameplay opinions mixed in with hard data in a tech analysis article because... uh...

The answer is simple: the design of the game influences the quality of the visuals that can be produced. This game takes a small scale approach to design and remains focused on a tight, linear experience. As a result, achieving such high quality visuals becomes much more manageable than if they had attempted all of this across a larger game. It's a pretty important thing to keep in mind.

It also accounts for maybe 1% of the article - the OP simply selected that specific piece which most certainly does not reflect the whole.

People are being insanely sensitive here.

Also shader quality. If I look at wood in The Order it looks more like wood than wood in AssassinsCreed.
I also feel like the lighting is better in The Order, especially in dark environments The Order looks absolutely phenomenal.
And character models and character animations, especially when it comes to NPC(which is very understandable since AC has dozens of NPCs on screen while TO only a hand full at most).

I agree and that's why my point just above is important to consider.

AC Unity's visuals are limited by the scope of the game.

It's not even just about technical limits even - we're talking about money and manpower as well. Implementing the small flourishes present in The Order to that quality in an open world game would be insanely time consuming and expensive. ACU does amazingly well considering its scale but it was clearly beyond what the team could manage in that time frame.

Mastperf · Feb 21, 2015

I'm not gonna side with Digital Foundry specifically, but if it was dark10x that wrote this article then I will say he has no hidden agenda. Dark is good people and has always been a fair and honest poster.

AllGamer · Feb 21, 2015

dark10x said:
People are being insanely sensitive here.

pixlexic · Feb 21, 2015

Stallion Free said:
How would that be "free"? Downsampling 1080 vertical res down to 800 doesn't suddenly make it cost less than a normal 1080 vertical res.

mixed with fxaa it would help alot And I am almost certain of it now as when ever you move the camera everything gets blury buts it's not a motion blur.

It's the same thing that happens when I do then same type thing on my pc.

Gbraga · Feb 21, 2015

1.21Gigawatts said:
Also shader quality. If I look at wood in The Order it looks more like wood than wood in AssassinsCreed.
I also feel like the lighting is better in The Order, especially in dark environments The Order looks absolutely phenomenal.
And character models and character animations, especially when it comes to NPC(which is very understandable since AC has dozens of NPCs on screen while TO only a hand full at most).

The models are indeed quite something, and definitely prove that we don't need prerendered cutscenes taking large amounts of gbs anymore. Of course, full blown CGIs like in Square-Enix titles will always be ahead of real time graphics, but in-engine prerendered scenes can die now.

onQ123 · Feb 21, 2015

Gbraga said:
Because it's an analysis on The Order, why would they have to keep saying "The Order" all the time?

The 3 times it's mentioned:

"The upscaling artefacts in Ryse, minimal as they were, are eliminated here"

here = Order, and also saying that it's better in The Order

"The presentation also calls to mind our thoughts on Ryse when it was released in late 2013 - with a different approach to rendering that is more film-like in nature."

Again, just comparing Ryse and The Order, which is natural, since they're both graphical showcases

"In our first look at Ryse, we quoted a Hollywood CG professional on image quality and, reading it again in 2015, it feels completely relevant to the approach Ready at Dawn has taken:"

I wonder which 2015 Ready at Dawn game he's talking about...

I really don't get what you're complaining about.

The OP was short yet it mentioned Ryse 3 times while not saying much about the tech of The Order.

you tried to explain why Ryse was mentioned 3 times yet say that you didn't get what I was complaining about.

Gbraga · Feb 21, 2015

onQ123 said:
The OP was short yet it mentioned Ryse 3 times while not saying much about the tech of The Order.

you tried to explain why Ryse was mentioned 3 times yet say that you didn't get what I was complaining about.

I'm sorry then, I may have misinterpreted your post, but I honestly don't get what you're complaining about.

TheBioLover · Feb 21, 2015

Are there any games coming out soon that seem to still be using pre-rendered cut scenes? Most games seem to be switching to using real-time ones.

sono · Feb 21, 2015

krimsoncharge said:
the NXgamer tech analysis is pretty good too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ3N2kLKdX0

That review is threadworthy in its detail of the review of the graphics. Mindblown.gif

I now appreciate the $100 steak comment.

BibiMaghoo · Feb 21, 2015

Dark10x, can you please explain why DF are moving their analysis into review and opinion areas? This is far more prevalent than it used to be, and the cynical part of me says it's because of the lesser import of the analysis this generation, with a generally more clear winner in terms of difference. I don't want that to be the case.

So why is it?

Edit: I see you pretty much answered this already.

FranXico · Feb 21, 2015

TheBioLover said:
Are there any games coming out soon that seem to still be using pre-rendered cut scenes? Most games seem to be switching to using real-time ones.

It is a gradual move, but I am under the impression that most current games still use pre-rendered cut-scenes. Especially console games.

onQ123 · Feb 21, 2015

Gbraga said:
I'm sorry then, I may have misinterpreted your post, but I honestly don't get what you're complaining about.

Is it not clear that I was asking why the OP is more about Ryse than it is about the tech of The Order?

Percy · Feb 21, 2015

dark10x said:
The answer is simple: the design of the game influences the quality of the visuals that can be produced. This game takes a small scale approach to design and remains focused on a tight, linear experience. As a result, achieving such high quality visuals becomes much more manageable than if they had attempted all of this across a larger game. It's a pretty important thing to keep in mind.

Fair point, sure... but that really did not come across as the point being expressed when you choose to close out an article by essentially saying "Game looks great, shame about the gameplay."

That's just how it read to me at least. Felt a tad unusual for a tech anlysis article (Compared to the ones i'm used to reading anyways) is all.

hiex_ · Feb 21, 2015

onQ123 said:
Is it not clear that I was asking why the OP is more about Ryse than it is about the tech of The Order?

I don't really understand the complaint either. Ryse is a pretty apt game to compare The Order to, also being a visually impressive graphical showcase. All mentions of Ryse are done with a mention of The Order's graphical feats. I don't see the issue?

dark10x · Feb 21, 2015

Percy said:
Fair point, sure... but that really did not come across as the point being expressed when you choose to close out an article by essentially saying "Game looks great, shame about the gameplay."

That's just how it read to me at least. Felt a tad unusual for a tech anlysis article (Compared to the ones i'm used to reading anyways) is all.

I don't really think that's what was conveyed.

I actually loved the game (more than most, it seems) but the core mechanics are EXTREMELY limited. I want to see them expand upon those.

For instance, the stealth sequence, which I'd imagine many disliked, was something I really enjoyed - but it was also very limited with a binary fail state and lack of AI. The actual stealth take downs were also confined to timed button presses. It limited a great scene. I would like to see that type of gameplay fleshed out with real AI and allow the battle to move between stealth and action more dynamically.

I think what they made is a solid base and I enjoyed it but there is so much more potential in there.

Gbraga · Feb 21, 2015

onQ123 said:
Is it not clear that I was asking why the OP is more about Ryse than it is about the tech of The Order?

But it's not. It's about how The Order equals or surpasses the game that is considered by many to be the current (now previous, I guess) king in graphics.

Objectively Bad Opinion · Feb 21, 2015

I think it's an interesting comparison because both games shoot for a similar "ideal" with the soft look and film grain. The Order just executes it better. This doesn't mean that Ryse looks bad, though.

The Order is just more consistently good looking, and it makes Ryse look like a game that is half-finished visually. Actually, it makes a lot of games look half-finished visually. Obviously that isn't the case, but there's just so much attention to detail in The Order that I can't help but feel that way.

I feel like I've watched most of the game, so even if I haven't played it I'm pretty confident I've seen enough to compare it to Ryse.

Dictator93 · Feb 21, 2015

Man said:
Killzone Shadowfall is still the most impressive next-gen game. The wast array of technical achievements is just mindblowing.

IMO, KZSF is doing more technically interesting stuff (the area light tech in it is just great, realtime lighting, SSR:stuff that the order could use). It is just that this game is quite exquisitelly more detailed in its models and animations... hence how it leaves a different impression.

But back on topic, fantastic article! Good to hear they cleaned up on any unsightly DOF or most motionblur issues before game release. Iw ould take issue with the IQ in the game from an AA or AF perspective, but that is pretty much prefence and hard to knock on soo much.

Conerning MSAA, it is not tecnical wizardry to have MSAA in forward+ engine. It is one of the main reasons forward+ is utilizated due to how normalized the MSAA costs are. We will of course have better data on what that means when TW3 launches. BUt due to some wording in the DF article, I wonder how comprehensive the MSAA is in the order. It could be in the middle on a sliding scale from BF4 MSAA (shitsville) to Crysis 3 MSAA (covers everything under the sun).

KKRT00 · Feb 21, 2015

So they experimented with PoM a little. Great, i hope they will use it a lot more in future.

Very good and indepth article. What i slightly miss is talk about particles and showcase of those vegetation physics in the video.
Was very surprised by loading times, that some very good streaming tech. That was from normal HDD or SSD?

@Dark10x

Can You confirm that shadows have/not have penumbra? There is nothing in the article about this.

dark10x · Feb 21, 2015

KKRT00 said:
So they experimented with PoM a little. Great, i hope they will use it a lot more in future.

Very good and indepth article. What i slightly miss is talk about particles and showcase of those vegetation physics in the video.

@Dark10x

Can You confirm that shadows have/not have penumbra? There is nothing in the article about this.

Yes, they do have penumbra! I even have a note here about including that but completely forgot to write a piece on it. You can see this during any sections with the flashlight where shadow definition changes based on proximity. From a distance, shadows appear diffuse and soft but gradually become sharper and more defined as you approach.

I was actually working on an annotated video to go along with this to show off things like particles and plant physics but I wasn't happy with the recording and scrapped it. Really need to practice as I can't get over the "reading from notes" sound when speaking even when I'm not actually reading. :\

KKRT00 · Feb 21, 2015

dark10x said:
Yes, they do have penumbra! I even have a note here about including that but completely forgot to write a piece on it. You can see this during any sections with the flashlight where shadow definition changes based on proximity. From a distance, shadows appear diffused and soft but gradually become sharper and more defined as you approach.

I was actually working on an annotated video to go along with this to show off things like particles and plant physics but I wasn't happy with the recording and scrapped it. Really need to practice as I can't get over the "reading from notes" sound when speaking even when I'm not actually reading. :\

Next question, do the particles receive shadows? I know that they receive lighting, its visible when weapons fire, but because game is quite dark overall, i've not seen examples in the footage i've seen of shadows interaction with particles.

1.21Gigawatts · Feb 21, 2015

BibiMaghoo said:
Dark10x, can you please explain why DF are moving their analysis into review and opinion areas?

I think the point about the gameplay and scope of the game make sense here.
Besides its not like the article spends a lot of time talking about these points.

The Order is a beautiful game, but they kinda pulled it off at the expense of gameplay in my opinion.
Imagine more verticality in level design, like for example the Uncharted 4 gameplay demo, the black bars would definitely be a problem then.
More open level design, more verticality, better AI, more player freedom, more destructability(something they promised but failed to deliver) more interactivity.
This would all come at the cost of the visuals.

I think a visual analysis is allowed to mention when the visuals came at the cost of gameplay.

dark10x · Feb 21, 2015

KKRT00 said:
Next question, do the particles receive shadows? I know that they receive lighting, its visible when weapons fire, but because game is quite dark overall, i've not seen examples in the footage i've seen of shadows interaction with particles.

Nope. I experimented with this and was not able to reproduce that effect under any circumstances. Particle clouds never received shadows which is a shame as it would have looked remarkable here.

The player is somewhat limited on where and when they can use smoke grenades, however, so it really only crops up as unrealistic during a couple sequences.

Forsete · Feb 21, 2015

The tech is really really impressive. I hope RAD gets another chance.

Dictator93 · Feb 21, 2015

dark10x said:
The player is somewhat limited on where and when they can use smoke grenades, however, so it really only crops up as unrealistic during a couple sequences.

Yeah I was curious about particle shadows and such. I wonder if they could ahve them... but they would have banding / resolution issues and hence they didn't. The cost of shadowing particles or even more so (having themc ast shadows) is pretty high... so maybe what they could produce on that front did not fit within the "flawless" nature of the rendering as it looked too obviously "gamey."

BTW, does your character not have grenades on him at all times? If so... that is silly.

1.21Gigawatts said:
I think a visual analysis is allowed to mention when the visuals came at the cost of gameplay.

Cost assumes that it must be purely negative, but I think the better phrase would be "defined the scope of gameplay." I think the Order is just an extreme version of when presentation concerns override and completely get in the way of gameplay ones. There have been lots of games that have quite intense graphical perogatives, yet manage to not have those get in the way of the asegameplay (no matter what that gameplay maybe). Alien Isolation is one.. for example.

dark10x · Feb 21, 2015

Dictator93 said:
Yeah I was curious about particle shadows and such. I wonder if they could ahve them... but they would have banding / resolution issues and hence they didn't. The cost of shadowing particles or even more so (having themc ast shadows) is pretty high... so maybe what they could produce on that front did not fit within the "flawless" nature of the rendering as it looked too obviously "gamey."

BTW, does your character not have grenades on him at all times? If so... that is silly.

Well, there are areas in the game where you simply cannot fire a weapon or use a grenade. They're "examination" points where you pick up and look at objects a la Shenmue. During those moments there is no way to experiment. Really, though, the supply of grenades is very VERY limited in this game.

It's a bit limited, I think.

There is a battle later on that takes place in a burning warehouse which could have benefited from more complex shadow/particle interactions, though.

There have been lots of games that have quite intense graphical perogatives, yet manage to not have those get in the way of the asegameplay (no matter what that gameplay maybe). Alien Isolation is one.. for example.

...or any Crysis. People like to shit on that franchise but the games are very well made and offer a lot of freedom to the player (particularly Crysis 1, which is my favorite by far).

Ghost Rider · Feb 21, 2015

This tech analysis has made me want to play the game more than any of the advertising. Being almost 40 years old, having been playing video games since I was 5 and having systems like the Vectrex, I find it amazing that we have come this far in graphics tech (before I get jumped on, no, I have not kept up with/cared about pc gaming). I hope this engine gets used for many different ventures and receives the tweaks and possible optimizations that would come with that

geordiemp · Feb 21, 2015

When I read about games like this where a smallish team have been working for almost 5 years....and they have made their own special advanced engine...

It makes me think that maybe they spent too much time developing the engine and fancy tech and barely left any time to make a game with depth.

Cave Johnson · Feb 21, 2015

Digital Foundry said:
That said, the physics simulation isn't as robust as we were first lead to believe - as revealed during a presentation at Gamescom 2013, Ready at Dawn targeted a more complex soft body and destruction physics engine at some point, which promised fully destructible environments and materials. The example of a crate splintering realistically as a nearby grenade explodes, for instance, does not appear within the final game. Even more superficial surface damage, as seen in Gears of War 3 or Killzone 2, is absent leaving most of the game's structures completely intact following a large fire-fight.

That right there is what originally hyped me up with this game. What on earth happened during the development that took out what clearly is a very next-gen feature?

Lord of Castamere · Feb 21, 2015

geordiemp said:
When I read about games like this where a smallish team have been working for almost 5 years....

They haven't. Development was stalled until PS4 devkits released in 2012. It's been in active development for roughly 3 years.

Fisty · Feb 21, 2015

Love the game, without a doubt. One gripe though:

GALAHAD HAS NO REFLECTION

Dark, why do so few games have character's reflections in mirrors?

KKRT00 · Feb 21, 2015

Btw i wonder if we ever get any tech breakthrough on why AF is so costly on those consoles from any developer.

Its really mindboggling for anyone that gamed on PC in last 10 years.

---

Fisty said:
Dark, why do so few games have character's reflections in mirrors?

Because we dont have raytracing yet and hacks are expensive and very glitchy.

tuxfool · Feb 21, 2015

FunkyPajamas said:
Correct me if I'm wrong (and really, please do correct me if I'm wrong) since I haven't played either and have only seen screenshots and videos, but isn't the latest AssCreed game a looker on a very capable PC? I'm talking strictly about IQ, textures, effects, etc. Not even performance.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed it is a looker. It isn't as consistent (open world, buggy and weirdnesss), however a similar IQ is really only possible with something like TXAA, which is prohibitively expensive possibly on account that TXAA has a MSAA pass and the AC engine is deferred.

Javin98 · Feb 21, 2015

KKRT00 said:
Next question, do the particles receive shadows? I know that they receive lighting, its visible when weapons fire, but because game is quite dark overall, i've not seen examples in the footage i've seen of shadows interaction with particles.

Wow, you're really nitpicking now, aren't you? In the other thread, you said The Order doesn't have POM and now we have proof it does. What's even worse is that you claimed the DoF in this game is only quarter res. Now we can confirm the DoF is very high quality and definitely comparable, if not, better than Ryse. Don't get me started on how you claimed the IQ is only slightly better than 900p games.

Dictator93 · Feb 21, 2015

tuxfool said:
Indeed it is a looker. It isn't as consistent (open world, buggy and weirdnesss), however a similar IQ is really only possible with something like TXAA, which is prohibitively expensive possibly on account that TXAA has a MSAA pass and the AC engine is deferred.

Depends on your framerate targets. If you target 30fps TXAA becomes quite a bit more reasonable.

tuxfool · Feb 21, 2015

Fisty said:
Love the game, without a doubt. One gripe though:

GALAHAD HAS NO REFLECTION

Dark, why do so few games have character's reflections in mirrors?

He does have reflection, but it is based on the depth buffer so it works best on things like metal and not things that reflect colour like windows. Go watch the nxgamer video.

tuxfool · Feb 21, 2015

Dictator93 said:
Depends on your framerate targets. If you target 30fps TXAA becomes quite a bit more reasonable.

True, but you still need a much more powerful graphics card to get there, TXAA is a bit of a brute force approach.

Terbinator · Feb 21, 2015

KKRT00 said:
Because we dont have raytracing yet and hacks are expensive and very glitchy.

Is there no way to 'cheese' this the same way T10 does with Forza's bonnet reflections?

OdysseusVA · Feb 21, 2015

Savantcore said:
Is all that I'm interested in from you, Digital Foundry.

Dictator93 · Feb 21, 2015

tuxfool said:
True, but you still need a much more powerful graphics card to get there, TXAA is a bit of a brute force approach.

Hrm. I would consider SSAA / OGSSAA to be in the brute force category of AA. I think the whole temporal wide box filter part of TXAA is the opposite of brute force. MSAA supplies the necessary samples to make it works as it does; something that The order is even doing. It only feels brute force like due to how expensive MSAA is in a deffered engine. I think there is some finesse there!

edit: we are basically agreeing with one another. lol

dark10x said:
...or any Crysis. People like to shit on that franchise but the games are very well made and offer a lot of freedom to the player (particularly Crysis 1, which is my favorite by far).

Yeah, I did not choose to mention it for... well.. reasons

Elginer · Feb 21, 2015

If Killzone has gotten as many sequels as it has then RaD deserve a chance to use this amaze balls engine again on something that hopefully fixes the pacing and gameplay problems this game has. I love the world and the art is second to now. Hell, I even enjoy the TPS gameplay for the most part it's all just held to tightly by the director at the cost of story and experience.

Regardless, tech wise the studio is beast. I sincerely hope they get another shot.

Dictator93 · Feb 21, 2015

tw i wonder if we ever get any tech breakthrough on why AF is so costly on those consoles from any developer.

DF has industry connections that we lowly folk do not have. Dark10x... I think this is a great idea for article / questioning for devs!

tuxfool · Feb 21, 2015

Dictator93 said:
It only feels brute force like due to how expensive MSAA is in a deffered engine. I think there is some finesse there!

Sure. Unfortunately most engines are deferred (or have recently moved to deferred like UE4) meaning the MSAA hardware is mostly going to waste either by virtue of sucking all the performance or by having really poor resolve (or both in the case of frostbite).

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