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gofreak · Jun 9, 2009

If only the Wiimote had a standard DS configuration..

Here's a third for good measure. Perhaps even more improbable than the other two in terms of accomodating a sphere.

But again, the same buttons/sticks/triggers combination.

These really remind me of Star Trek designs :lol

Raist · Jun 9, 2009

gofreak said:
Arrived today in the USPTO.

These were registered a year ago, last June, so any design they're thinking about now might be significantly different. These designs also don't accomodate 'the sphere'. But they seem very similar from a buttons POV to the one shown at E3. They have in common:

A stick, 4 buttons, and 2 shoulder buttons/trigger, home button, select and start. In other words, half a DS3. The one at E3 seemed to place the stick in the middle of the four buttons, but in these it's just below.

I don't believe the design would be like this at all. It would basically have the same limitation than the wiimote. There has to be a tracking point (and the best would be a sphere) which can be seen by the PSeye at any time (except if you completely hide it from the cam, of course).

gofreak · Jun 9, 2009

Yeah, they don't accomodate the sphere. But other than that they're quite similar from a buttons layout or availability POV to what the prototype shown at E3 suggested.

Bear in mind they are a year old, and may be from a time when they weren't sure what tech they were going to finally go for. The LED sphere+pseye choice would obviously require changes to these designs..

TTP · Jun 9, 2009

Despite being shitty prototypes, it's good to see a stick on all of them.

nelsonroyale · Jun 9, 2009

they better make this cheap...it won't be, but its the only way it will sell...to me

AndyD · Jun 9, 2009

TTP said:
Despite being shitty prototypes, it's good to see a stick on all of them.

Those are probably the "other hand" models. Its probably easier to use just one trackable item, one remote with a ball, then the other hand can hold these.

gofreak · Jun 9, 2009

AndyD said:
Those are probably the "other hand" models. Its probably easier to use just one trackable item, one remote with a ball, then the other hand can hold these.

I doubt it, I think they'll all be symmetrical..one type of wand usable by either hand.

For the left hand, the four buttons can act as a d-pad where needs be (if you're trying for some kind of full DS3 replication with two wands).

Throwaway123456789 · Jun 9, 2009

cakefoo said:
Imagine headtracking on top of that

Why would headtracking come on top of that? It would replace one of the sticks.

TTP · Jun 9, 2009

AndyD said:
Those are probably the "other hand" models. Its probably easier to use just one trackable item, one remote with a ball, then the other hand can hold these.

I was thinking the same, but then I recalled the bow demo and such.

TTP · Jun 9, 2009

gofreak said:
I doubt it, I think they'll all be symmetrical..one type of wand usable by either hand.

For the left hand, the four buttons can act as a d-pad where needs be (if you're trying for some kind of full DS3 replication with two wands).

That would suck immensely tho.

Sony got quite a conundrum to solve here. :lol

Raist · Jun 9, 2009

TTP said:
That would suck immensely tho.

The other way around. A D-PAD that could work as buttons. Would be better.

gofreak · Jun 9, 2009

TTP said:
That would suck immensely tho.

Well I wouldn't play street fighter with these wands..

For MOST d-pad uses these days, it'd be OK. Of course, some games you're gonna want the classic DS d-pad.

Without making the wands asymmetrical I don't see any alternative, though. Unless they're also symmetrical around their x-axis, with a d-pad and stick and sphere on the bottom of each controller too, so you can hold them either way. But that's pretty impractical, too much repetition.

edit - well, the other alternative would be to have one break-apart controller with two wands, one with d-pad, one with buttons. But I think they're gonna prefer to market wands individually, thus they'll want them to be symmetrical.

TTP · Jun 9, 2009

Raist said:
The other way around. A D-PAD that could work as buttons. Would be better.

That would suck as well.

Raist · Jun 9, 2009

TTP said:
That would suck as well.

You're never happy

Plinko · Jun 9, 2009

I still can't see any situation in which Sony releases these things at reasonable prices based on their price point of $249 for the PSP-Go and PS3's price.

TTP · Jun 9, 2009

gofreak said:
Without making the wands asymmetrical I don't see any alternative, though

They definitely need to make them asymmetrical I believe. You still need to sell them both together for maximum support, so there is really no need to make them identical.

Or... customizable controls via faceplates as that old patent suggested.

Raist said:
You're never happy

That sucks as well.

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

FoxHimself said:
Why would headtracking come on top of that? It would replace one of the sticks.

Head tracking controls the neck
Right stick turns the rest of your body
Remote aims the gun

It might be too much for most people though.

Graphics Horse · Jun 9, 2009

cakefoo said:
Head tracking controls the neck
Right stick turns the rest of your body
Remote aims the gun

You could stick turning + running on the same stick, you'd still be able to strafe with that setup.

[Nintex] · Jun 9, 2009

If you want to know how this works, just play Metroid Prime 3

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

[Nintex] said:
If you want to know how this works, just play Metroid Prime 3

No. You don't have a second stick to work with for fast movement.

[Nintex] · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
No. You don't have a second stick to work with for fast movement.

I bet it also doesn't have blast processing?

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

Graphics Horse said:
You could stick turning + running on the same stick, you'd still be able to strafe with that setup.

You mean run with the right stick and strafe with the left? What would vertical on the left do then? Why not put running on the left like it's always been, so you have full analog movement?

Graphics Horse · Jun 9, 2009

cakefoo said:
You mean run with the right stick and strafe with the left? What would vertical on the left do then? Why not put running on the left like it's always been?

Run and turn on the same stick, with head tracking you wouldn't even need a second controller.

[Nintex] · Jun 9, 2009

PC FPS's work fine with just WSDA and a Mouse, you don't need an additional set of keys to turn or an extra mouse for 'fast movement'. The control schemes some of you are proposing are just crazy.

with head tracking you wouldn't even need a second controller.

This works too

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

[Nintex] said:
PC FPS's work fine with just WSDA and a Mouse, you don't need an additional set of keys to turn or an extra mouse for 'fast movement'. The control schemes some of you are proposing are just crazy.

So you want a m/k setup for your console?
Today, Wii fps games are too unresponsive and it feels like you're controlling a plane (even in hyper sensitive games like Cod). Even with the precise aiming the pointer functionality offer they wouldn't stack up against gamepad users because of their fast movement. Having a second analog is key.

Graphics Horse · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
So you want a m/k setup for your console?
Today, Wii fps games are too unresponsive and it feels like you're controlling a plane (even in hyper sensitive games like Cod). Even with the precise aiming the pointer functionality offer they wouldn't stack up against gamepad users because of their fast movement. Having a second analog is key.

So just scroll the controller around like a mouse, like they were doing in the conference.
You could combine it with a button press which you release to keep still, like lifting a mouse off the surface. (or the other way round)
They could even do that whilst being compatible with twin stick controls at the same time.

Zoramon089 · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
So you want a m/k setup for your console?
Today, Wii fps games are too unresponsive and it feels like you're controlling a plane (even in hyper sensitive games like Cod). Even with the precise aiming the pointer functionality offer they wouldn't stack up against gamepad users because of their fast movement. Having a second analog is key.

I suggest you play Metroid Prime 3 for a good amount of time. It's EASILY as responsive as a gamepad analog stick and the types of enemies in the game, one's that require fast and precise aiming, would be hard to combat on a normal controller. I don't know where you're getting "unresponsive" from becaus that simply isn't true. And, with the M+, aiming off screen won't mess up the game

Woz · Jun 9, 2009

cakefoo said:

Look at dat texturz!
Bad art

Nice mock up, good work.

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

Graphics Horse said:
Run and turn on the same stick, with head tracking you wouldn't even need a second controller.

You said you could strafe with that scheme though. How could you run, turn and strafe with the same stick? A button, but why gimp your experience?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. And headtracking doesn't really substitute anything- it's merely a means of quickly turning your in-game neck left and right 90 degrees. An analog stick would still be needed to turn your body infinite degrees.

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

Graphics Horse said:
You could combine it with a button press which you release to keep still, like lifting a mouse off the surface. (or the other way round)

I have given this a thought before but once we start with button presses for movement it's over the line.
Also (before we reach this topic), I don't think arbitrary(?) pointer functionality is something anyone would want (purpose and feel starts to lose it's point if so). Where the aim is almost fixed but you move the frame with the pointer. The pointer should refer to the crosshair.

Zoramon089 said:
I suggest you play Metroid Prime 3 for a good amount of time. It's EASILY as responsive as a gamepad analog stick and the types of enemies in the game, one's that require fast and precise aiming, would be hard to combat on a normal controller.

I wasn't satisfied at all with that as a fps standard. You have to sway the aim all across the screen to start movement in the other direction. It just doesn't cut it, you're putting work into pushing the screen around. Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFO9N3tST4

Graphics Horse · Jun 9, 2009

cakefoo said:
You said you could strafe with that scheme though. How could you run, turn and strafe with the same stick? A button, but why gimp your experience?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. And headtracking doesn't really substitute anything- it's merely a means of quickly turning your in-game neck left and right 90 degrees. An analog stick would still be needed to turn your body infinite degrees.

I'm saying that 'Realistic' Strafing would be running forwards whilst aiming to your side.
To give a very unfortunate example, I'm talking about something like vehicles in HL2, I've not heard good things about the console version though.

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

Graphics Horse said:
I'm saying that 'Realistic' Strafing would be running forwards whilst aiming to your side.
To give a very unfortunate example, I'm talking about something like vehicles in HL2, I've not heard good things about the console version though.

You should see me sideways hopping in my room right now :lol You're right, strafing in games is a little unrealistic. It feels alot more tactical to run forwards and turn my head and arms.

BUT, since I hate tank controls, I'd still prefer two separate sticks- one for running and one for turning. I think a ton of people would agree.

thefro · Jun 9, 2009

The extra tech in this and Wiimotion plus (meaning aiming offscreen doesn't screw things up), plus the customizable bounding boxes in games like the Conduit should eliminate any issues with FPS controls.

You certainly don't need 2 analog sticks plus a pointer.

~Devil Trigger~ · Jun 9, 2009

these designs dont have the light bulb color changing thinggy

Zoramon089 · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
I wasn't satisfied at all with that as a fps standard. You have to sway the aim all across the screen to start movement in the other direction. It just doesn't cut it, you're putting work into pushing the screen around. Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFO9N3tST4

Which is exactly the same as a standard PC fps, you just don't notice because you pick up your mouse periodically when you run out of physical room. And besides, this issue has been resolved with customizable bounding boxes, which are the virtual "screen boundaries" that determine when the camera starts turning. I suggest you read more about them and see what you think

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

Zoramon089 said:
Which is exactly the same as a standard PC fps, you just don't notice because you pick up your mouse periodically when you run out of physical room.

No, that's not how it is at all. PC FPS titles have a fixed crosshair. You don't work on pushing the screen around with the crosshair as you control both the screen/aim fully at all times.

Zoramon089 said:
And besides, this issue has been resolved with customizable bounding boxes, which are the virtual "screen boundaries" that determine when the camera starts turning. I suggest you read more about them and see what you think.

A tighter bounding box means less freedom to move your aim around or else (your camera goes to hell). And even with an ultra tight bounding box (which makes the pointer functionality arbitrary or almost of no use) it still can't contend with the small flick of an analog stick.

Dual stick controls + pointer for crosshair is the ideal way to do it.

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

Zoramon089 said:
Which is exactly the same as a standard PC fps, you just don't notice because you pick up your mouse periodically when you run out of physical room. And besides, this issue has been resolved with customizable bounding boxes, which are the virtual "screen boundaries" that determine when the camera starts turning. I suggest you read more about them and see what you think

PC fps is completely different. If you want an accurate PC-equivalent to the Wii FPS solution, middle click your mouse in the internet browser and pan around with that. It's like piloting an airplane. To stop you have to bring the mobile cursor back to the anchored cursor, just like how you have to bring the pointer in a wii fps back to the center of the screen.

mentalfloss · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
A tighter bounding box means less freedom to move your aim around or else (your camera goes to hell). And even with an ultra tight bounding box (which makes the pointer functionality arbitrary or almost of no use) it still can't contend with the small flick of an analog stick.

cakefoo · Jun 9, 2009

What's the point of having a 1:1 pointer if you can't use it as a pointer, but instead as a yoke? It's like a giant joystick but with no self-centering spring.

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

cakefoo said:
What's the point of having a 1:1 pointer if you can't use it as a pointer, but instead as a yoke? It's like a giant joystick but with no self-centering spring.

Exactly. Having it control the crosshair is the most intuitive solution.

It just doesn't affect movement fast enough which is where the second analog needs to come in.

Pristine_Condition · Jun 9, 2009

gofreak said:
I doubt it, I think they'll all be symmetrical..one type of wand usable by either hand.

Yep. That's what I'm thinking too. I don't think there's anything gained by a nunchuck-style secondary controller if the main controller has everything you'd want on board and can be used in either hand.

gofreak said:
For the left hand, the four buttons can act as a d-pad where needs be (if you're trying for some kind of full DS3 replication with two wands).

TTP said:
That would suck immensely tho.

Sony got quite a conundrum to solve here. :lol

Raist said:
The other way around. A D-PAD that could work as buttons. Would be better.

Yeah, this is the big remaining question, IMO.

I cannot fathom Sony getting rid of the x, circle, square, and triangle buttons. From a functional POV, they are too important. They are also iconic from a Playstation brand identity perspective. Just look at the opening CG from the E3 sizzle reels, the whole plane is made up of those symbols. Sony will never give them up.

Sony could go with a stacked design but the amount of space there is really pretty small if they do that, or they could go with a module you could switch out like we've seen in some of the patent application sketches.

Personally though, I think the D-pad is gone for the 3D controller. I think Sony will look at the situation and come to the conclusion that if you specifically need a digital D-pad in a game, (a very limited subset of games,) you can simply use the DS3 controller.

pakkit · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
I wasn't satisfied at all with that as a fps standard. You have to sway the aim all across the screen to start movement in the other direction. It just doesn't cut it, you're putting work into pushing the screen around. Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFO9N3tST4

I see your MP3 and raise you Medal of Honor: Heroes 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUsJy46Pf6c

The player sucks, but Wii games CAN be more sensitive then keyboard and mouse games. The ability to be accurate with it, of course, lies with the player. MP3 is a great game, but MoH:H2 and CoD:WaW both have quicker turning which is essential in online play.

Yes, tighter bounding boxes limit the "point 'n click" accessibility of the Wii Remote, but what it offers through turning control is a huge payoff. It's still very easy to line up a shot.

The solution you all are suggesting is most similar to Resident Evil 4 Wii (the reason all these examples are Wii based is because that's the tech we can work off of). It works for games of that type, where you have time to turn, but to turn on a dime an analog stick is MUCH worse then IR control, and it's a bit disorienting to turn the camera but not the crosshairs.

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

pakkit said:
Yes, tighter bounding boxes limit the "point 'n click" accessibility of the Wii Remote, but what it offers through turning control is a huge payoff. It's still very easy to line up a shot.

You lose that appeal (which is vital) + you would also need to have huge discipline with controls (aiming just a few degrees away for a second might screw up your positioning totally).

mentalfloss · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
You lose that appeal (which is vital) + you would also need to have huge discipline with controls (aiming just a few degrees away for a second might screw up your positioning totally).

Is this about sensitivity of control or enjoyable gameplay? Because the latter is a different argument entirely.

Wollan · Jun 9, 2009

mentalfloss said:
Is this about sensitivity of control or enjoyable gameplay? Because the latter is a different argument entirely.

Both. We're trying to find the ultimate console FPS controls.
No surfaces, no extreme movement.

pakkit · Jun 9, 2009

Good luck! I guess head-tracking would be the only way to keep "intuitive" and be able to use the all of the IR's freedom, but then we're working with the historically hard-to-use head tracking system.

Is head-tracking easy to implement via Sony's wands? I know that it'd require set-up to execute using the Wii, and it can apparently be programmed into NATAL (or, at least, some people said it headtracked when they were doing the Milo demo).

Kinan · Jun 9, 2009

pakkit said:
Good luck! I guess head-tracking would be the only way to keep "intuitive" and be able to use the all of the IR's freedom, but then we're working with the historically hard-to-use head tracking system.

Is head-tracking easy to implement via Sony's wands? I know that it'd require set-up to execute using the Wii, and it can apparently be programmed into NATAL (or, at least, some people said it headtracked when they were doing the Milo demo).

Well, you can just duct tape the wand to your head.

Starchasing · Jun 9, 2009

Wollan said:
Both. We're trying to find the ultimate console FPS controls.
No surfaces, no extreme movement.

just hook kb and mouse... those are perfect since FPS were designed around them since the begining... the rest is casual stuff

freethought · Jun 9, 2009

I too am curious to see how Sony handle symmetry between wands, with the d-pad and face buttons being the main problem for them. I'll be very interested to see the final design.

Of course they could go the Wii route and continue to offer 'classic controllers' which will give them a bit more freedom with the wand design. I can say for sure that if I can buy a dualshock for PS4 that I would, especially if it's got full BC. Let's face it, this tech won't make a big impact this gen, but it's almost certainly going to be the standard controller for PS4.

durendal · Jun 9, 2009

Starchasing said:
just hook kb and mouse... those are perfect since FPS were designed around them since the begining... the rest is casual stuff

Keyboards aren't as good for movement as an analog stick.

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