Support NeoGAF

gamergirly · Jan 6, 2010

jrricky said:
After reading this news, I decided to go back and watch the gametrailers video about the guys discussing the future of the industry and how the Wii sales will drop to a crawl after the PS3slim release and it continues to crack me up.

It's a shame how hungry people are for Wii to fail. That would be the death of the expansion of the market as it is now. And without expansion, the video game industry will eventually crash and burn. A video game system selling crazy numbers and increasing the market size will always be a GOOD thing

Sipowicz · Jan 6, 2010

gamergirly said:
It's a shame how hungry people are for Wii to fail. That would be the death of the expansion of the market as it is now. And without expansion, the video game industry will eventually crash and burn. A video game system selling crazy numbers and increasing the market size will always be a GOOD thing

it's mostly shit factories like gametrailers/kotaku/1up/ign who think like that. embarassing garbage that's aimed at 12 year old boys

european sites/publications are way better than that shit

Aaron Strife · Jan 6, 2010

Stopsign said:
Be careful whenever looking at numbers on blogs and even some bigger sites, they often cite his site for sales, and posting those articles of GAF is also a banned offense.

Or square-enix press conferences.

Effect · Jan 6, 2010

RurouniZel said:
How could I forget Crazy Taxi! Just use Mario Kart controls and BAM!!

The only people who think this is hard for some reason are the people making the games. As I used to tell an overly analytical friend of mine all the time: "You're making this much harder than it has to be". The solution is, in essence, so incredibly simple that developers refuse to see it, convinced there must be something DEEPER! Some SINISTER SECRET hidden in its little white shell.

Seriously, it's NOT that complicated.

That's the thing that annoys me so much. Some of these companies act as if there is this huge puzzle to figure out. It's really very simple in the end however they have tunnel vision. It's either that or it's all an act and as others have suggested there was never any truthful intent to do well on the Wii. However that it's been a long time hope that the bottom would fall out for Nintendo and the Wii and they would be vindicated in the direction they went. That has not happen. However I do think shareholders will start, if they haven't already, start asking why their companies haven't been profitable when it comes to Wii games when they look at how well it's doing. For every excuse 3rd parties make a game comes out that shows how that excuse isn't valid and can not be the reason.

Thinking along those lines it's also very much a possibility that things haven't changed and maybe won't for one huge reason. To admit the direction they've invested so much in might not have been the best (financially) and to admit they were wrong for how they viewed the Wii and responded to it (their offerings and effort) even after it took off sales wise and continues to do well would mean a lot of people in high positions would lose their jobs. There would be a call from shareholders for new leadership in several key positions. Relationshios built up over the years between companies would be undone and many other things would take place indirectly. Those in these companies will not allow that to happen because they are understandably looking out for themselves above all else. This is really troubling because some of these people that might be acting like this could very well lead to and most likely has lead to the fall of several developers already.

AnimeTheme · Jan 6, 2010

Xavien said:
As someone said earlier in this very thread, attach ratios on the Wii are similar to the PS2, so where does that leave third parties?

Leaving a massive pile of money on the table, thats where.

So the current Wii without any major 3rd party support already having a similar tie ratio as other consoles may simply mean there is no need for such support, simply because Nintendo can single-handedly support the software sales themselves. Most Wii customers simply don't mind buying mostly Nintendo games.

Onesimos · Jan 6, 2010

Stopsign said:
Be careful whenever looking at numbers on blogs and even some bigger sites, they often cite his site for sales, and posting those articles of GAF is also a banned offense.

I have heard of NeoGAF banning users for using that site's information when I was mostly posting on the GameSpot forums, but nowhere in the NeoGAF Terms of Service even mentions it as a bannable offensive.

Thanks for everyone on explaining why NPD numbers are used and why that banned site is not used. Unfortunately, some fanboys use that banned site not knowing or even denying its unreliability.

Opiate · Jan 6, 2010

AnimeTheme said:
So the current Wii without any major 3rd party support already having a similar tie ratio as other consoles may simply mean there is no need for such support, simply because Nintendo can single-handedly support the software sales themselves. Most Wii customers simply don't mind buying mostly Nintendo games.

If this is your logic, there's basically no way for Wii owners to win. Consider the two possible scenarios:

1) Wii owners do not buy many games, and the system has a very low attach rate. Obviously, in this scenario, third parties would ignore the Wii. They certainly aren't going to make more games if the Wii isn't selling period.

2) Wii owners do buy games, and the system has a reasonable attach rate. According to your theory, this indicates that the Wii doesn't need third parties, because people seem happy without them.

There is literally no way to get more third party support in this scenario you've set up. If people buy games or don't buy them, both indicate that third parties shouldn't put their games on the Wii. It's a loaded system.

By the way, I believe the Wii's attach ratio has legitimately fallen behind now. It was keeping pace, but I think it's .3-.4 games per system behind the PS3 at this point, although someone can correct me. That's still not awful, but it's less than one might expect.

Dragmire · Jan 6, 2010

AnimeTheme said:
So the current Wii without any major 3rd party support already having a similar tie ratio as other consoles may simply mean there is no need for such support, simply because Nintendo can single-handedly support the software sales themselves. Most Wii customers simply don't mind buying mostly Nintendo games.

But customers don't know that they're buying Nintendo-published games. That's a misconception you always see on message boards and even from publishers. Most people have no clue that Nintendo publishes Wii Fit, Animal Crossing, Zelda, Mario Party, Pokemon Ranger, Wario Ware and Fire Emblem, for example. Yes, even with Smash Bros., which is more of a hardcore game, most consumers have no clue what that game is about, or that it's all characters from one publisher, or whatever. And they don't even know or understand the concept of third parties and publishers, and how that all works. They don't know or care who makes the games. Nintendo just knows how to make a product for a broad consumer base, or appeal to hardcore gamers, or both. Most third parties never wanted to or tried to succeed on Wii, and thought that simply putting any hardcore game on the system (mostly poor or average ones) that it should sell simply because of the install base. At all points, they treated Wii owners like they were stupid, and got the sales that they deserved from it.

(And to clarify, I don't think that a consumer is stupid just because they don't know who made a game. Even most casual consumers can look at a game that we consider shovelware and say that it looks like a dumb game.)

leroy hacker · Jan 6, 2010

Onesimos said:
I have heard of NeoGAF banning users for using that site's information when I was mostly posting on the GameSpot forums, but nowhere in the NeoGAF Terms of Service even mentions it as a bannable offensive.

For future reference, the FAQ forum contains a list of banned sites and memes.

gkryhewy · Jan 6, 2010

Aside from recent releases in the now-saturated rail shooter genre, has there been a North American third party release on Wii with much lower sales than rational observers would expect?

I'd look at Tales of Graces in Japan, but I'm not aware of a similar example in the US.

Sadist · Jan 6, 2010

Rabbids Go Home is a release where we need some info on.

Modern Warfare Reflex (lol) would be interesting to, because WaW last year sold like 300k in December '08

Evlar · Jan 6, 2010

I'm fascinated by the discussion of third-party rationale for marginalizing Wii development efforts, particularly the idea they are unwilling to commit due to lack of market research. I need to think about this as it relates to other new platforms, i.e. smart phones, or to platforms with very large untapped markets, i.e. personal computers.

AnimeTheme · Jan 6, 2010

Dragmire said:
But customers don't know that they're buying Nintendo-published games. That's a misconception you always see on message boards and even from publishers. Most people have no clue that Nintendo publishes Wii Fit, Animal Crossing, Zelda, Mario Party, Pokemon Ranger, Wario Ware and Fire Emblem, for example. Yes, even with Smash Bros., which is more of a hardcore game, most consumers have no clue what that game is about, or that it's all characters from one publisher, or whatever. And they don't even know or understand the concept of third parties and publishers, and how that all works. They don't know or care who makes the games. Nintendo just knows how to make a product for a broad consumer base, or appeal to hardcore gamers, or both. Most third parties never wanted to or tried to succeed on Wii, and thought that simply putting any hardcore game on the system (mostly poor or average ones) that it should sell simply because of the install base. At all points, they treated Wii owners like they were stupid, and got the sales that they deserved from it.

(And to clarify, I don't think that a consumer is stupid just because they don't know who made a game. Even most casual consumers can look at a game that we consider shovelware and say that it looks like a dumb game.)

Whether the customers realize the Nintendo brand name or not doesn't really matter. What I mean is that the current Wii game library consisting mostly Nintendo games is already enough to maintain a healthy tie ratio, and most Wii customers are happy enough to choose their games from the current software library. If this is true, what this means to 3rd parties is that if they want some major sales from Wii customers, they have to COMPETE with Nintendo. This may explain why most of the 3rd party games on Wii are just niche/shovelware titles following or simply copying the success of Nintendo. Some 3rd parties may want to try something "different" from the Nintendo's route, but they don't know how (yet).

Parl · Jan 6, 2010

AnimeTheme said:
So the current Wii without any major 3rd party support already having a similar tie ratio as other consoles may simply mean there is no need for such support, simply because Nintendo can single-handedly support the software sales themselves. Most Wii customers simply don't mind buying mostly Nintendo games.

Third parties takes more share as a collective than Nintendo, but looking at it that way is dangerous. The reason why each individual third party's share is so low is because of the content, or lack thereof, they put on the system. Therefore, the reason for collective third parties's relatively low market share on Wii is down to their poor products and not necessarily "just the way things are".

The longer it's left, the harder it'll be to capitalise on the audience.

Aaron Strife · Jan 6, 2010

Dragmire said:
But customers don't know that they're buying Nintendo-published games. That's a misconception you always see on message boards and even from publishers. Most people have no clue that Nintendo publishes Wii Fit, Animal Crossing, Zelda, Mario Party, Pokemon Ranger, Wario Ware and Fire Emblem, for example. Yes, even with Smash Bros., which is more of a hardcore game, most consumers have no clue what that game is about, or that it's all characters from one publisher, or whatever. And they don't even know or understand the concept of third parties and publishers, and how that all works. They don't know or care who makes the games. Nintendo just knows how to make a product for a broad consumer base, or appeal to hardcore gamers, or both. Most third parties never wanted to or tried to succeed on Wii, and thought that simply putting any hardcore game on the system (mostly poor or average ones) that it should sell simply because of the install base. At all points, they treated Wii owners like they were stupid, and got the sales that they deserved from it.

(And to clarify, I don't think that a consumer is stupid just because they don't know who made a game. Even most casual consumers can look at a game that we consider shovelware and say that it looks like a dumb game.)

ftr, my uncle (who was himself a big gamer in the 8/16-bit days) didn't realize that mario and zelda were both made by nintendo until he saw me playing brawl one day.

poppabk · Jan 6, 2010

AnimeTheme said:
Whether the customers realize the Nintendo brand name or not doesn't really matter. What I mean is that the current Wii game library consisting mostly Nintendo games is already enough to maintain a healthy tie ratio, and most Wii customers are happy enough to choose their games from the current software library. If this is true, what this means to 3rd parties is that if they want some major sales from Wii customers, they have to COMPETE with Nintendo. This may explain why most of the 3rd party games on Wii are just niche/shovelware titles following or simply copying the success of Nintendo. Some 3rd parties may want to try something "different" from the Nintendo's route, but they don't know how (yet).

This demonstrates the false dichotomy when it comes to drawing a line between 1st and 3rd party sales. Any game released is going to have to compete with the current library of games - the fact that they are 1st or 3rd party is irrelevant. The success of NSMB:Wii is no more a deterrent to people afraid of competition than the success of MW2 is.
The issue isn't that Nintendo software is 1st party, the issue is that Nintendo software is so different to everyone else and no-one can figure out how to replicate their success. If Nintendo were 3rd party and publishing on the 360 - the number of people copying Nintendo games would still be low. The success of a GTA or a Halo or a Gears of War causes a rush of copycat games - the success of NSMB:Wii is unlikely to signal a rush of 2D platformers.

AniHawk · Jan 6, 2010

poppabk said:
the success of NSMB:Wii is unlikely to signal a rush of 2D platformers.

But it should god dammit.

There have been a lot more 2D platformers this gen than last gen, even though that number shrinks a lot once you only look at retail games.

jrricky · Jan 6, 2010

People are just gonna have to accept that third parties hate the Wii. I mean common, the Wii sells 3 million in one month but epic decides to port Unreal Engine 3 (which wasnt possible...it isnt ever in PR speak, see LBP PSP and other games that 'cant' be done on lower tech systems) to the iPhone:lol

I cant wait to test this out on iPhone development

NinjaFusion said:
The simply point is... just as Sega said recently.... that the people buying Wii's are not the sort of people to buy a console and go on to buy 5 or 6 games during the year... they are happy with wii sports and wii fit and might buy another game if the profile is high enough.

So in this scenario, how does a third party make any money?

I don't know...I mean, you said it yourself...make a high profile Wii game and show confidence in your product.

It sounds like rocket science doesnt it?

Grampa Simpson · Jan 6, 2010

NinjaFusion said:
The simply point is... just as Sega said recently.... that the people buying Wii's are not the sort of people to buy a console and go on to buy 5 or 6 games during the year... they are happy with wii sports and wii fit and might buy another game if the profile is high enough.

So in this scenario, how does a third party make any money?

You should ignore the thread about that. The interviewee was an otherwise sharp guy, but in no way a numbers guy and didn't know shit about what he was talking about when it came to the numbers. Listen to the podcast and come to your own conclusion if you don't believe me.

Future · Jan 6, 2010

legend166 said:
The problem with this theory is that the Wii's tie ratio is very much inline with the historical trends of every other 1st place console. So unless you're willing to apply this same theory to the PS2, PS1, SNES and NES, then it doesn't hold.

The Wii isn't like the PS2, SNES, etc. They were market leaders because they also had the most support, a one stop shop for every major release. If you were interested in gaming, you needed these systems to get the games.

The Wii library is very different from the competition, and isn't the place to get big third party sequels and IPs. Yet it remains the market leader anyway, and it's for the reasons I described. Because the Wii has an appeal beyond "I want Bioshock 2 and FFXIII!". This really is anomally. It's why no one could predict the success.

But when you think about it, it makes sense. They made the system less about a constant stream of big releases. And more about a lifestyle choice. Gotta have monopoly if you want to pull out a board game once in awhile. Gotta have a Wii if you want the same multiplayer experience, but in a next gen form

Grampa Simpson · Jan 6, 2010

Aaron Strife said:
ftr, my uncle (who was himself a big gamer in the 8/16-bit days) didn't realize that mario and zelda were both made by nintendo until he saw me playing brawl one day.

Here here. When I was a teenager, I had heard of 3rd parties, but it wasn't until I was in my twenties that I really understood what they were. It was all Nintendo to me. It really wasn't until I was wrapping my head around articles saying that Nintendo and Sony were being very strict about what they'd allow 3rd parties to put on their system that I started to understand.

farnham · Jan 6, 2010

some of this arguments are ridiculous...

so the people that buy a wii buy 4 to 5 games every year... thats fine.. but why doesnt sega try to get in that top 4 or 5 and make money out of it..? or why dont they just try to make a game that appeals to that crowd.. i mean nintendo somehow did it.. and EA did too at least partially..

sure its hard because times change and tastes change.. but if they just rely on their strength of the past they will always loose money.. btw.. didnt sega make a shit ton of money with mario and sonic..?

Grampa Simpson · Jan 6, 2010

Future said:
stuff

smh

Vgamer · Jan 6, 2010

farnham said:
some of this arguments are ridiculous...

so the people that buy a wii buy 4 to 5 games every year... thats fine.. but why doesnt sega try to get in that top 4 or 5 and make money out of it..? or why dont they just try to make a game that appeals to that crowd.. i mean nintendo somehow did it.. and EA did too at least partially..

sure its hard because times change and tastes change.. but if they just rely on their strength of the past they will always loose money.. btw.. didnt sega make a shit ton of money with mario and sonic..?

Ya Sega of all the third parties really should be doing insanely good on the Wii. Like Nintendo they have a huge back catalog of classic games and characters that people still remember that they could update. If they just made a real Sonic in 2D like NSMB and made it with their top talent and advertised it I really think it would sell like crazy. Not to mention other series like maybe a new Streets of Rage game on Wiiware or a new Crazy Taxi game etc... They are really missing out on some major sales imo.

Pureauthor · Jan 6, 2010

Future said:
The Wii isn't like the PS2, SNES, etc. They were market leaders because they also had the most support, a one stop shop for every major release. If you were interested in gaming, you needed these systems to get the games.

The Wii library is very different from the competition, and isn't the place to get big third party sequels and IPs. Yet it remains the market leader anyway, and it's for the reasons I described. Because the Wii has an appeal beyond "I want Bioshock 2 and FFXIII!". This really is anomally. It's why no one could predict the success.

But when you think about it, it makes sense. They made the system less about a constant stream of big releases. And more about a lifestyle choice. Gotta have monopoly if you want to pull out a board game once in awhile. Gotta have a Wii if you want the same multiplayer experience, but in a next gen form

You realize you're making a lot of conjecture without actually providing any evidence to support the argument, don't you?

The Technomancer · Jan 6, 2010

poppabk said:
This demonstrates the false dichotomy when it comes to drawing a line between 1st and 3rd party sales. Any game released is going to have to compete with the current library of games - the fact that they are 1st or 3rd party is irrelevant. The success of NSMB:Wii is no more a deterrent to people afraid of competition than the success of MW2 is.
The issue isn't that Nintendo software is 1st party, the issue is that Nintendo software is so different to everyone else and no-one can figure out how to replicate their success. If Nintendo were 3rd party and publishing on the 360 - the number of people copying Nintendo games would still be low. The success of a GTA or a Halo or a Gears of War causes a rush of copycat games - the success of NSMB:Wii is unlikely to signal a rush of 2D platformers.

Not...quite true. I agree with you in all except one situation. Don't ever discount the awesome, awesome power of Mario. Even more than the "Wii' brand, Mario's face sells games. That face on a box represents a commitment to family-friendly games for parents worried about Gears of Grand Theft Halo, and don't they know it. Any decent game in any genre is going to have to compete with a Mario branded game of the same genre (See: Super Mario Strikers Charged, Mario Kart), that that throws a bit of a wrench into the "open playing field"

Vinci · Jan 6, 2010

Dragmire said:
But customers don't know that they're buying Nintendo-published games.

They didn't in the beginning, when the Wii was still young. They do now. People keep treating casuals like they're morons, like they don't know how to look for brand names and associate those names with good or bad products. The way this has played out? Nintendo is a good brand, and virtually every other one is shit. I've literally heard this from relatives who didn't even know Nintendo made the fucking Wii when they bought it.

Drinky Crow · Jan 6, 2010

third-parties for the wii need to work on their fuckin boxart/box copy. that's the decision point for the blue ocean customer. dead space extraction went down great with a pair of casual coworkers, but they were reluctant to buy it because of its terrible coverart.

leroy hacker · Jan 6, 2010

The_Technomancer said:
Any decent game in any genre is going to have to compete with a Mario branded game of the same genre

I didn't know there was a Mario third person shooter. The main reason many people refer to an "open playing field" on the Wii is that there are so many genres Nintendo doesn't even approach.

Vinci · Jan 6, 2010

leroy hacker said:
I didn't know there was a Mario third person shooter.

Mario Paintball would sell fucking millions.

Aaron Strife · Jan 6, 2010

Vgamer said:
Ya Sega of all the third parties really should be doing insanely good on the Wii. Like Nintendo they have a huge back catalog of classic games and characters that people still remember that they could update. If they just made a real Sonic in 2D like NSMB and made it with their top talent and advertised it I really think it would sell like crazy. Not to mention other series like maybe a new Streets of Rage game on Wiiware or a new Crazy Taxi game etc... They are really missing out on some major sales imo.

I think Sega could take cues from capcom as far as how to manage their fairly large back catalog.

There are a lot of more modern capcom games where the production values and gameplay are enough to warrant a full 60 dollar game (RE, DMC, etc, most of the newer ones), some that can accommodate both retail and digital (compare Street Fighter II Turbo Remix Awesome HD blagh vs. Street Fighter IV), and some that just really couldn't evolve without radically changing the formula, like no one's gonna pay $60 for like Mega Man 10 or something. They really have a good ecosystem going, that's why they don't suck.

Now take some sega franchises. Phantasy Star could easily be fleshed out into a big epic RPG like FF. Sonic can work on both levels (big Adventure game, retro style 2 hour romp). And then they could do a Streets of Rage update on XBLA.

Future · Jan 6, 2010

Pureauthor said:
You realize you're making a lot of conjecture without actually providing any evidence to support the argument, don't you?

Video game message board dude.

Not gonna waste time Pulling charts out of my ass supporting every point for a post that's gonna be on page 10 in a couple of hours. Especially since most points are pretty obvious. Wii sales aren't about hyped games or any of that shit which is clear lookin at their release list and console sales numbers. It's this fact that better have the dudes at M$ and Sony adjustin their battle plans

poppabk · Jan 6, 2010

The_Technomancer said:
Not...quite true. I agree with you in all except one situation. Don't ever discount the awesome, awesome power of Mario. Even more than the "Wii' brand, Mario's face sells games. That face on a box represents a commitment to family-friendly games for parents worried about Gears of Grand Theft Halo, and don't they know it. Any decent game in any genre is going to have to compete with a Mario branded game of the same genre (See: Super Mario Strikers Charged, Mario Kart), that that throws a bit of a wrench into the "open playing field"

But again that isn't because 'Mario' is first party - lets not forget how well Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games sold. Lets also not forget Mario Super Sluggers or Mario Strikers Charged, plenty of 3rd parties wouldn't think twice about going up against that type of competition - Mario isn't a magical IP that will sell anything that his name is attached to. Mario games have the potential to be successful because Nintendo have carefully managed Mario as an IP and have attached his name to some of the greatest games of all time (of all time). Nothing has prevented 3rd parties from cultivating their own family friendly IP's, most companies have had at least one in the past that they have driven into the ground with a string of phoned in games.

Fularu · Jan 6, 2010

Drinky Crow said:
third-parties for the wii need to work on their fuckin boxart/box copy. that's the decision point for the blue ocean customer. dead space extraction went down great with a pair of casual coworkers, but they were reluctant to buy it because of its terrible coverart.

This is true for every market, including the PS3/360 ones.

the2bears · Jan 6, 2010

four-two said:
...
Now some will say that I am exaggerating but seriously, WHY SPEND ALL THOSE MONEY GAME INDUSTRY?!!? For passion? Bullshit, no one invest for passion in this bussines, I wonder until the system still works well before everyone decides to close up shop and follow the road of Nintendo...

Who's passion? When you allow the "industry" to make games for itself, this is what you get: big budget games that want to be treated like Hollywood blockbusters. It's not a sustainable business model, and it's taking games away from what they are.

Game design should be arcade driven (again) rather than choosing some other medium to drive it.

clashfan · Jan 6, 2010

gamergirly said:
It's a shame how hungry people are for Wii to fail. That would be the death of the expansion of the market as it is now. And without expansion, the video game industry will eventually crash and burn. A video game system selling crazy numbers and increasing the market size will always be a GOOD thing

The Backstreet Boys increased the market for the music industry but did it make the music industry better?

Jokeropia · Jan 6, 2010

Future said:
Video game message board dude. Not gonna waste time Pulling charts out of my ass supporting every point for a post that's gonna be on page 10 in a couple of hours. Especially since most points are pretty obvious. Wii sales aren't about hyped games or any of that shit which is clear lookin at their release list and console sales numbers. It's this fact that better have the dudes at M$ and Sony adjustin their battle plans

But you were proven factually wrong on some of your claims. For example, the average Wii owner buys games at the same pace as the average 360 or PS3 owner.

JoshuaJSlone did the calculation based on NPD numbers a few months ago (when we got updated LTD software sales) and the results came out as follows:

X360: 0.091 games per week
Wii: 0.091 games per week
PS3: 0.092 games per week

Vinci · Jan 6, 2010

clashfan said:
The Backstreet Boys increased the market for the music industry but did it make the music industry better?

Have you seen many boy bands around lately?

Davey Cakes · Jan 6, 2010

farnham said:
some of this arguments are ridiculous...

so the people that buy a wii buy 4 to 5 games every year... thats fine.. but why doesnt sega try to get in that top 4 or 5 and make money out of it..? or why dont they just try to make a game that appeals to that crowd.. i mean nintendo somehow did it.. and EA did too at least partially..

sure its hard because times change and tastes change.. but if they just rely on their strength of the past they will always loose money.. btw.. didnt sega make a shit ton of money with mario and sonic..?

I think the problem lies in how so many games flood the store shelves.

Why can't we see companies making one or two really great games that have a lot of selling potential instead of many different games, each with a lack of selling potential. There's way too much "throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks" and because of this it's just over-saturating the market will bullshit games that merely steal shelf space away from other, better games. Isn't it just as good to sell one mega hit instead of selling two "expectation-meeting" semi-hits?

Put bigger teams into making bigger, better, more-polished games. And no, not just for one audience, but for everyone. The hardcore gamers might cry for their niche titles, but honestly, Nintendo's gotten along quite fine by developing games with brand power as well as focusing more on a combination of audiences.

noire · Jan 6, 2010

deleted

Deku · Jan 6, 2010

the2bears said:
Who's passion? When you allow the "industry" to make games for itself, this is what you get: big budget games that want to be treated like Hollywood blockbusters. It's not a sustainable business model, and it's taking games away from what they are.

Game design should be arcade driven (again) rather than choosing some other medium to drive it.

What's the alternative?

I don't disagree with the pretension of many games being made,and the hollywood wanna-be mentality, but games that's factory produced that is on a set schedule, with little room for creativty (see most of EA's annual fare) is arguably worst off than games made by the developers for their own enjoyment.

I think the solution seems to be to expand the types of people making/designing games, rather than asking a cat to learn new tricks.

You're not going to get mouthbreather-prime like Epic to make a great adventure game.

Vinci · Jan 6, 2010

Deku said:
I think the solution seems to be to expand the types of people making/designing games, rather than asking a cat to learn new tricks.

Enter: iPhone. It's doing a lot for independent devs, as well as the sort of folks that would never have even thought of making a game or a piece of software till it came along.

Owzers · Jan 6, 2010

Vinci said:
Have you seen many boy bands around lately?

So you're saying Wii's a fad too? kidding

jibblypop · Jan 6, 2010

clashfan said:
The Backstreet Boys increased the market for the music industry but did it make the music industry better?

No they didn't. If those kids didn't buy backstreet boys, they would have bought something else. They didn't bring in many new music listeners since almost every single person already listens to music.

Videogames are a different case. They were virtually ignored or even hated by a lot of the population (like most females) and the wii and especially the DS have done a lot to change that image and made the market much larger. It's not the same at all as one successful music act sellling to people that already like music.

Rocksteady33 · Jan 6, 2010

Rash said:
I think the problem lies in how so many games flood the store shelves.

Why can't we see companies making one or two really great games that have a lot of selling potential instead of many different games, each with a lack of selling potential. There's way too much "throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks" and because of this it's just over-saturating the market will bullshit games that merely steal shelf space away from other, better games. Isn't it just as good to sell one mega hit instead of selling two "expectation-meeting" semi-hits?

Put bigger teams into making bigger, better, more-polished games. And no, not just for one audience, but for everyone. The hardcore gamers might cry for their niche titles, but honestly, Nintendo's gotten along quite fine by developing games with brand power as well as focusing more on a combination of audiences.

You're looking at it from wayyyyy to simple of terms. You're assuming that everyone who makes games has the potential to make triple-A software. Companies like Ubisoft use smaller development teams, and third-tier contracted developers because they know they don't have the ability to create a game with the production value, or even a simple fun model with a winning formula. Just because your a game developer does not mean you can make a game like Call of Duty, or even something like Wii Sports.

By making lots of games they hit lots of markets and thus create brand awareness for more people. Ubisoft would not have much mindshare if for 2009 if they put all their resources towards two games - Assassin's Creed 2 for the core and, say, Shaun White Snowboarding 2 for the casual. There's more to making games than just breaking-even, it's building relationships, strengthing IP's, and broadening your customer base. By "saturating" the market, as you like to say, you can accomplish these goals among a number of other beneficial things as well.

AltogetherAndrews · Jan 6, 2010

jrricky said:
I don't know...I mean, you said it yourself...make a high profile Wii game and show confidence in your product.

It sounds like rocket science doesnt it?

So what you are saying is that all a publisher has to do is create a big budget, AAA exclusive (it would have to be, or it would get ripped on for being a lazy port, am I right?) and launch it with a massive ad campaign, and thus the market is transformed and the path has been lit?

I sort of wish that the people lamenting the current situation and claiming to know the secret to success would start pooling their own money together and actually fund one of these ventures.

Vinci · Jan 6, 2010

AltogetherAndrews said:
So what you are saying is that all a publisher has to do is create a big budge exclusive (it would have to be, or it would get ripped on for being a lazy port, am I right?) and launch it with a massive ad campaign, and thus the market is transformed and the path has been lit?

I sort of wish that the people claiming to know the secret to success would start pooling their own money together and actually fund one of these ventures.

Yeah, the high-profile game route isn't very wise. I think there's a lot of room for 3rd parties to jump in and do extremely well on the Wii, but they need to first figure out what Nintendo is doing - and build something along the same values and concepts. Problem is, they don't want to understand Nintendo, or the Wii, and so they misconstrue what's happening to make Nintendo titles so successful.

Future · Jan 6, 2010

Jokeropia said:
But you were proven factually wrong on some of your claims. For example, the average Wii owner buys games at the same pace as the average 360 or PS3 owner.

JoshuaJSlone did the calculation based on NPD numbers a few months ago (when we got updated LTD software sales) and the results came out as follows:

I never said that Wii games don't sell. Just that it is playing by a different ruleset than the typical console. The biggest 3rd party hits are not on the Wii. The games with the most hype and press are not on the Wii. 3rd parties complain about the Wii, and Nintendo itself isn't even providing huge games regularly that everyone is talking about. In the past this would be indicators of a failed console. Now, it's what is defining the Wiis success.

Because Nintendo made it not about all that shit. They made it about a fun affordable console that can be pulled out occasionally for family and friends. Games still sell, but you don't see brand new wii games topping the charts every month because that's not what people ate buying the wii for. Now you will see some wii games topping these lists, but they will usually be the same wii games you always see. And they will be on that list for months

As said, it's not a dis to the system at all. Hardcore gamers can still buy the latest and greatest and there are some good games to play. But they aren't what driving the majority of sales. And this is why 3rd parties can't catch a break: they can't create games that will have immediate appeal to the largest part of the wii base. And for the hardcore.....why would I buy something like deadspace or call of duty on the wii. I have a damn 360 and PS3, of course I'm gonna get those versions. 3rd parties need to focus on embracing the uniqueness of the wii, instead of producing the same old shit and complaining when sales dont reach expectations

JJConrad · Jan 6, 2010

Future said:
I never said that Wii games don't sell. Just that it is playing by a different ruleset than the typical console. The biggest 3rd party hits are not on the Wii. The games with the most hype and press are not on the Wii. 3rd parties complain about the Wii, and Nintendo itself isn't even providing huge games regularly that everyone is talking about. In the past this would be indicators of a failed console. Now, it's what is defining the Wiis success.

Because Nintendo made it not about all that shit. They made it about a fun affordable console that can be pulled out occasionally for family and friends. Games still sell, but you don't see brand new wii games topping the charts every month because that's not what people ate buying the wii for. Now you will see some wii games topping these lists, but they will usually be the same wii games you always see. And they will be on that list for months

As said, it's not a dis to the system at all. Hardcore gamers can still buy the latest and greatest and there are some good games to play. But they aren't what driving the majority of sales. And this is why 3rd parties can't catch a break: they can't create games that will have immediate appeal to the largest part of the wii base. And for the hardcore.....why would I buy something like deadspace or call of duty on the wii. I have a damn 360 and PS3, of course I'm gonna get those versions. 3rd parties need to focus on embracing the uniqueness of the wii, instead of producing the same old shit and complaining when sales dont reach expectations

When you say that they "can't catch a break" can you think of any that deserve to? I don't just mean that its a good game deserving to sell, I mean its a great game with enough hype behind to overcome the best on Wii and every other console to make the Top 10? Is there anything even kind of remotely close to that coming from third parties?

That's where the difference between Wii and the other systems is. Wii absolutely destroys the other systems once you get outside the top 10, but we rarely see that here.

Neo C. · Jan 6, 2010

There's a NBA JAM for Wii? I missed the thread and the lolz. Can anyone give me the link?

Support NeoGAF

Nintendo sells 3 million Wiis in December 2009

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

card-carrying scientician

Danish

Banned

Member

Danish

Banned

Member

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Danish

Member

Unconfirmed Member

Banned

Danish

Member

Banned

Junior Member

Member

Danish

Member

Sucks at viral marketing

Member

Similar threads