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Why were Nintendo and Square bickering during the 90s?
- Thread starter PusherT
- Start date
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
N64 used cartridges instead of CDs.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
.PusherT said:
The guy's ego was legendary.
Money.... Nintendo got upset when they found out that Square was talking to Sony about putting games on the PS. Money was thrown around, Nintendo felt betrayed.
I remember hearing something about Square not being to happy about the Mario RPG games back then too for some reason. Not sure if that was just a rumor though.
I remember hearing something about Square not being to happy about the Mario RPG games back then too for some reason. Not sure if that was just a rumor though.
TekkenMaster
Banned
Square couldn't bombard us with hours worth of non playable cutscenes on a cartridge?
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
PusherT said:
Great at doing a lot of things. Especially at pissing people off and forcing Nintendo's PR to work overtime.
GillianSeed79
Member
AlternativeUlster said:
.
The Interrobanger
Member
Square refused to eat Nintendo's broccoli.
PataHikari
Banned
I think part of it was issues about who owned what characters in Super Mario RPG.
Square won out in the end, and thus owned all characters created for that game, but it produced a bit of bad blood between the two.
Square won out in the end, and thus owned all characters created for that game, but it produced a bit of bad blood between the two.
There might still be issues if Square hadn't blinked first and started talking in order to release their old games on the Nintendo DS and GBA. They needed the money after The Spirits Within movie I believe.
Is it going to far say that if they hadn't don't that, that Square wouldn't be around anymore? That Nintendo with their GBA and then Nintendo DS saved them as a company?
Is it going to far say that if they hadn't don't that, that Square wouldn't be around anymore? That Nintendo with their GBA and then Nintendo DS saved them as a company?
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Nintendo made a shitty hardware decision. Square made a good business decision. Hiroshi Yamauchi is a cold motherfucker who gave his own father the figurative finger on his deathbed.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
The main issues:
- Disagreement with Nintendo over hardware direction
- Disagreement with Nintendo over ridiculous restrictions on third party publishers
- Personal bad blood between executives at both companies
This caused Square to go Sony-exclusive. This in turn set off a chain reaction of both companies pissing at each other which only thawed with the Crystal Chronicles / Brownie Brown / Game Developers Studio initiatives much later on.
err, no.
That's patently ridiculous. Not only because only a tiny sliver of Square's income from 2000-2005 came from Nintendo platforms--really, you think a few B-tier ports turned around the company?!, but also because Square merging with Enix was the move that happened in response to the financial troubles of both companies, not Square releasing games on Nintendo consoles again.
- Disagreement with Nintendo over hardware direction
- Disagreement with Nintendo over ridiculous restrictions on third party publishers
- Personal bad blood between executives at both companies
This caused Square to go Sony-exclusive. This in turn set off a chain reaction of both companies pissing at each other which only thawed with the Crystal Chronicles / Brownie Brown / Game Developers Studio initiatives much later on.
Effect said:
err, no.
That's patently ridiculous. Not only because only a tiny sliver of Square's income from 2000-2005 came from Nintendo platforms--really, you think a few B-tier ports turned around the company?!, but also because Square merging with Enix was the move that happened in response to the financial troubles of both companies, not Square releasing games on Nintendo consoles again.
The Nintendo vs Square dispute could it be te reason why Nintendo is so non trusting of 3rd parties. If you at nintendo before this fued they were alot better with 3rd parties after Square upset Nintendo and Yamauchi it seems like Nintendo just said "Fuck You" to all 3rd parties. It seem like Namco and Square really made Nintendo upset or if not Nintendo they made Yamauchi mad.
Mr. B Natural
Member
You really have to ask that question after seeing what nintendo has become in terms of 3rd party support the last 10 years compared to what they were like 15+ years ago?
sloppyjoe_gamer
Gold Member
First reply nailed it...
At one point, Square had FFVII in development for the N64, but later canned it and went with Sony based on the fact that the Playstation CD was able to handle the game without the expense, and constraints of using a cartridge (that Nintendo was adamant on keeping for its N64 format).
At one point, Square had FFVII in development for the N64, but later canned it and went with Sony based on the fact that the Playstation CD was able to handle the game without the expense, and constraints of using a cartridge (that Nintendo was adamant on keeping for its N64 format).
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Yeah, uh, your view of past events is slightly... off. I'm really not sure where you got the idea that Square "crawled" back to Nintendo after Spirits Within or how the GBA "saved" them. Neither are true and both are ignoring the existence of Enix and the PS2.Effect said:
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
Nintendo was never good with 3rd parties. Their relationship with them these days are eons better than they were in the past. And it seems odd to highlight only Square's leaving when almost every developer choose the PS1 over the N64 for obvious reasons.PusherT said:
GillianSeed79
Member
PusherT said:
It's more like the other way around. Nintendo was a virtual dictatorship at first when it came to 3rd party relations back in the NES because they had a virtual monopoly on the home console market.
They eased up a bit after a few court hearings and by the SNES era but basically took 3rd parties for granted. Then came Sony who offered 3rd parties more money in royalties and more freedom. Oh and they didn't have to pay nintendo to manufacture their cartridges anymore I believe, but I could be wrong on that.
They always had options remember the Sega systems Masterdrive and Megadrive. There were system like the Turbo graphic 16 etc. Nintendo never held a gun to namco and square head, Nintendo by making the NES and SNES what it was with thiere 1st party IP (mario,zelda,metriod) built those systems the 3rd parties just feed of from that . It was Nintendo brands that built the console base so we could have a FF,DQ,tales of phantasia etc. Yamauchchi was just made it seem.Sadist said:
grandjedi6 said:
Well, Square didn't crawl back. After the financial disaster that was Spirits Within, Square was in a very bad shape, regardless of their projects on PSone or the then up and coming PS2. Square did state publicly they were 'ready' to develop for GBA, which the press at the time took at a reconciliation between both parties.
At the same time, negotiations were already well underway between Square and Enix for a merger (buyout of Square by Enix). And Enix, while developing DQVII for PSone, never experienced the kind of animosity as Square did with Nintendo.
Essentially, if the reconciliation didn't happen in 2002, it would have happened in 2003 when Square-Enix was formed.
Crazymoogle
Member
You guys have some good points, but it was really a case where both parties had some obvious reasons to act. (I think the revised "Game Over" by David Sheff may have gone into it)
As I recall, yes, Square was basically financially hamstrung several times as Nintendo changed formats and delayed the N64, but they also made a powerful enemy out of Nintendo by using and training with early-access devkits (SGI machines, basically) and then turning it over for exclusive PS1 development.
As I recall, yes, Square was basically financially hamstrung several times as Nintendo changed formats and delayed the N64, but they also made a powerful enemy out of Nintendo by using and training with early-access devkits (SGI machines, basically) and then turning it over for exclusive PS1 development.
Definitely NOT.AlternativeUlster said:
The anger is older than that. There were a lot of problems between Nintendo and Square during SNES era (maybe some of them are incorrect, but the general idea is there) :
- problems with Super Mario RPG rights/benefits
- problems with royalties
- problems with large carts allocation (the rumor says Secret of Mana was scaled down because Nintendo chose to give largest carts to Enix first)
Most of the issues were money. Difficult to find ONE culprit, but generally, I'd say Nintendo didn't see Squaresoft as a major part for success and treated them with disdain.
As far as I know, it went further when Squaresoft was not in the N64 "Dream Team", and didn't receive any early development kits, like Enix did. The "FF6 64 demo" was developped on a SGI station instead.
Then Sony came to grag Squaresoft. Cheaper media indeed, but also and especially lower royalties, and a way to limit Nintendo near-monopoly on the market convinced them. Then, then went to convince Enix to go Sony's route too, by explaining them that splitting the market would be dangerous.
The rumors I heard says that Nintendo was especially angry against Squaresoft not for their departure but for taking Enix with them. Nintendo thought they could do without Squaresoft, but not without Enix, and the rumor also says that Dragon Quest was about to be annouced for N64. Difficult to know if it's the truth.
But shortly they were not happy together far earlier than N64, for money reasons, and CD is not the reason. It's the official explanation, that's all
So who came to who? I'm almost certain Yamauchi still had major input on Nintendo during that GBA period, it does seem like Square came crawling back to Nintendo. Nintendo had no reason to pursue Square or any 3rd party as there first party money never weakened.grandjedi6 said:
Sadist said:
okay, STOP THAT.
Im so sick of stupid people hating on cartridges. Oh no, no CD-quality music and shitty non-interactive cutscenes. What a loss. Instead we got no load times.
I LOVED carttridges and at some point they will make a return. Because the only thing holding them off today is their high cost compared to disc-based media. It´s not because the medium is somehow faulty...it´s the opposite.
in short: cartridges ftw
selig said:
Spoken like someone who doesn't remember individual games costing upwards of 80-100$ during those years.
Cartridges were a huge problem, regardless of load times, and the introduction of CDs was a massive benefit to consumers that resulted in huge increases in game sales. The industry really opened up after that point.
GillianSeed79
Member
PusherT said:
:lol In the NES days if you wanted a license to sell games on the NES there was a clause for years that forbade you from releasing games on other systems. Third parties could only release three games a year for a long time during the NES years under Nintendo's order, which is why you saw companies like Konami open up subsidiaries like Ultra Games to release more than three games. Tengen and Namco virtually attempted industrial espionage and reverse engineering to bypass NES's security features to sell their games. Yeah, they had zero options in the NES days. They eased up by the SNES days but they were still paying Nintendo a lot of money for catridge manufacturing and royalties.
CreatureX3
Member
:lolTekkenMaster said:
EmCeeGramr
Member
how long before the silicon graphics final fantasy gets posted, and then the three people quoting it saying that it's not really an n64 game
Crazymoogle
Member
Koren said:
N64 kits were SGI IRIX machines, as I recall. Some of the software may have been switched to PC down the road but I definitely remember us having IRIX demo machines (although typically we just burned to cart to test, having lots of IRIX machines was expensive.)
Amirox said:
Yeah, basically. I mean, I thought I remembered the right details about Nintendo/Square but it's just hazy memories from a book that someone stole years ago. :lol
With any luck we can just old quotes from Gamefan in here.