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Cuphead is going to be boss rush only? | Dev: There are platforming levels!

nkarafo

Member
Think of it this way: how would you make a Mario 4 level harder? You can't just give the enemies more health.

Yes, it's a lot of work.
Mario games are mostly about careful level design, since they are pure platformers.

Cuphead looks to me more like a run & gun type of game (Contra, Metal Slug). These games don't have as special level designs, you usually just get simple areas to walk with some platforms here and there. The difficulty is mostly about the number of enemies to kill and stuff to avoid.

So i assume this is an easier thing to do, than trying to carefully create a map like Mario, where every gap, platform shape and location, enemy placement, etc, have to be thought out.

That's just an assumption of mine though as i have no better idea about game development.

Anyway, if i was in charge, since cuphead's selling point is the incredible animation, i would make it more like Metal Slug, with some beautiful backgrounds with lots of animations etc but instead of making many small enemies, i would make it about less but bigger ones. Kinda like Alien Soldier.
 
All of the bosses have new attacks, new patterns, and in some cases, totally new forms depending on which difficulty you play them on. Some have tweaks, some have fairly major additions.

Adding higher boss health doesn't actually make the bosses harder, just longer. So we don't do that.

Think of it this way: how would you make a Mario 4 level harder? You can't just give the enemies more health.

Yes, it's a lot of work.

Thank you for the confirmation. I think this had already been talked about but I couldn't recall off the top of my head.
 

Teeth

Member
Anyway, if i was in charge, since cuphead's selling point is the incredible animation, i would make it more like Metal Slug, with some beautiful backgrounds with lots of animations etc but instead of making many small enemies, i would make it about less but bigger ones. Kinda like Alien Soldier.

????

Cuphead started out as all bosses EXACTLY like Alien Soldier, but that's what people railed against.

There was always going to be some platforming, especially during the bosses (which play out not unlike levels), but due to demand, we're adding more platforming levels.

They are actually going to end up being a lot like a cross between the obstacle based platforming of a Mario game and the more run and gun style stuff in a Contra. We have way more character abilities than a Contra game (dashes, air dashes, EXs and Super attacks, parries, parry bouncing, etc) which lends itself a lot better to the complex and tuned level designs you're talking about.

I couldn't think of anything less interesting than waves of enemies with a couple platforms to jump on. Blech.
 
Ideally, for what I've gotten so far, I'd be pretty happy with something that plays like a Treasure platformer like Gunstar Heroes or Silhouette Mirage, and hits you with crazy bosses every few screens or so, and an occasional Seven Force to really drive the point home.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
It's actually what has me not really wanting to purchase it. But seeing the edit, maybe it does have some normal levels, so the purchase may be back on.
 

nkarafo

Member
????

Cuphead started out as all bosses EXACTLY like Alien Soldier, but that's what people railed against.
Yeah, that's why i said "kinda" and not "exactly" :p


They are actually going to end up being a lot like a cross between the obstacle based platforming of a Mario game and the more run and gun style stuff in a Contra. We have way more character abilities than a Contra game (dashes, air dashes, EXs and Super attacks, parries, parry bouncing, etc) which lends itself a lot better to the complex and tuned level designs you're talking about.
Sounds good.


Ideally, for what I've gotten so far, I'd be pretty happy with something that plays like a Treasure platformer like Gunstar Heroes or Silhouette Mirage, and hits you with crazy bosses every few screens or so, and an occasional Seven Force to really drive the point home.
Gunstan Heroes is closer to what i had in mind, so i should mention that instead of Alien Soldier, damn!
 

Kent

Member
Even if it were nothing but back-to-back bosses... I mean, I'm a huge fan of Treasure, so I'm 100% okay with that.
All of the bosses have new attacks, new patterns, and in some cases, totally new forms depending on which difficulty you play them on. Some have tweaks, some have fairly major additions.

Adding higher boss health doesn't actually make the bosses harder, just longer. So we don't do that.

Think of it this way: how would you make a Mario 4 level harder? You can't just give the enemies more health.

Yes, it's a lot of work.

It's not.

And there will be easy mode.

And in co op, you can save your partner by catching his ghost before it floats out of the screen, giving you a lot of chances.

And you have infinite lives.

It's a game that respects you as a player, when you win, it's because you overcame an obstacle yourself (or you and a friend).

I would consider myself an average player. I beat modern games on normal, I can beat Contra 3 but I can't beat Contra HC. I can beat Cuphead with some work.

I... wasn't aware I could be more hyped about this than I already was.
 

wildfire

Banned
It's actually what has me not really wanting to purchase it. But seeing the edit, maybe it does have some normal levels, so the purchase may be back on.

Maybe it does?

The Dragon avatar two posts above yours is one of the devs. You are getting platforming.
 
The amount of shade in this thread is sickening.
200w.gif
100% behind the team and incredibly pumped for this
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Maybe it does?

The Dragon avatar two posts above yours is one of the devs. You are getting platforming.

No I know, the maybe I guess was the wrong word. It still appears as though boss battles is definitely the focus or the star of the show, which just generally isn't for me.

Even in Shmups - which this game takes some inspiration from (unless Teeth can correct me), I don't really enjoy the boss battles. I actually really only main parts of the level. The boss battles generally just annoy me.
 

Sjefen

Member
Developers own description of their game:
"Cuphead is a classic run and gun action game heavily focused on boss battles"

I didn't know this, so thanks OP for making my list of "must buy games" this year gets alittle smaller.

http://cupheadgame.com
 
So i assume this is an easier thing to do, than trying to carefully create a map like Mario, where every gap, platform shape and location, enemy placement, etc, have to be thought out.

Not really, from my experience. It takes a lot of experience and can be really taxing on the mind to make single screens so engaging for an extended period of time, and keep the scenario variety up for the entire length of a game, while keeping it all structurally proportionate, thematically cohesive and flowing right on a proper difficulty curve. Especially if all your assets and tilesets are becoming more unique/customized as you go. Additionally, the more your playable character and enemies can do, the harder it gets to accommodate it to it's potential, still maintain engagement/quality, and not lose your visual/architectural target.

It's so much less challenging imo to work with a relatively limited, repeatable set of grid-based assets, and just trial and error your way through jump height/distance, enemy placement etc and test your way through difficulty curve til you've got it right, then asset and color swap everything if you decide world 5-4 should all of a sudden be 2-1 or whatever. Keep everything modular, cut, chop and slide.
 
I... wasn't aware I could be more hyped about this than I already was.

That's how I feel. Instead of asking more questions here that were likely answered elsewhere (was going to ask what method is used to go between levels/bosses) I found interviews from last year that mention the 70-30% split as the goal for bosses to platforming, that the game has a world map with secrets, there's weapons and EX attacks earned by beating levels and specific challenges, and mention of a New Game+ Mode. All this sounds great to me.

I already figured this would be something I'd be buying on day one but this sort of information just makes it more of a guarantee. And honestly even without some of the features the art alone is enough to get me to support the developer and just to see what's all in the game.
 

Teeth

Member
No I know, the maybe I guess was the wrong word. It still appears as though boss battles is definitely the focus or the star of the show, which just generally isn't for me.

Even in Shmups - which this game takes some inspiration from (unless Teeth can correct me), I don't really enjoy the boss battles. I actually really only main parts of the level. The boss battles generally just annoy me.

Well, there are literally some shmup bosses, where you fly around in your little airplane, so it would be tough to say there is no influence. But shmup does not mean bullet hell: no one one the team is a bullet hell fan, so there won't be any pink mazes to wade through. They'll be more like Thunder Force bosses.

Hey, if you don't like bosses, Cuphead may not be for you. We love bosses, so we set out to make the most interesting, intense, visually striking bosses we could. If that's not your cup of soul juice, I can't fault you for not being interested.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Well, there are literally some shmup bosses, where you fly around in your little airplane, so it would be tough to say there is no influence. But shmup does not mean bullet hell: no one one the team is a bullet hell fan, so there won't be any pink mazes to wade through. They'll be more like Thunder Force bosses.

Hey, if you don't like bosses, Cuphead may not be for you. We love bosses, so we set out to make the most interesting, intense, visually striking bosses we could. If that's not your cup of soul juice, I can't fault you for not being interested.

No that's ok. I'm not having a go at the game, or yourselves.

Like most, the visuals are what grabbed me when first seeing the game. But ultimately, visuals are just that. I'd always take a fun game with average visuals over a great looking game that doesn't play well or isn't fun (not necessarily saying Cuphead won't be fun).

But I can't lie, the bullet hell/boss battle focus was an unfortunate deterrent for me.

Hopefully you guys are releasing a demo/trial for it? Might be a great way to give people on the fence the push they need?
 

randomkid

Member
Well, there are literally some shmup bosses, where you fly around in your little airplane, so it would be tough to say there is no influence. But shmup does not mean bullet hell: no one one the team is a bullet hell fan, so there won't be any pink mazes to wade through. They'll be more like Thunder Force bosses.

Hey, if you don't like bosses, Cuphead may not be for you. We love bosses, so we set out to make the most interesting, intense, visually striking bosses we could. If that's not your cup of soul juice, I can't fault you for not being interested.

thanks for trying to stick with your vision for the game even if dummies who never played alien soldier are apparently forcing you to add unnecessary platform stages.

reading this thread is straight up crazy pills, when did gamers decide they hated boss battles? the premise of this game is incredible. there are a million other platform games out there for you, yeesh.
 
Generally you show bosses sparingly for a game like this and the meat of footage would be platforming. It does raise alarm bells when they have done the exact opposite..
 

T.O.P

Banned
Generally you show bosses sparingly for a game like this and the meat of footage would be platforming. It does raise alarm bells when they have done the exact opposite..

But that's what the core of the game is

"For a game like this" doesn't really make it
 
I understand people like levels as well, but the outrage over the idea of a game being a boss-only affair is absolute madness. It's not like we haven't had fantastic games that are just boss-only affairs before.

This.

Also, we get a million platformere each year, but how often do we get another Alien Soldier?

I loved what I played at Gamescom. Responsive, challenging and way deeper than people expect with dashes, parries and supers.
 

Teeth

Member
Ditto.

Contra: Hard Corps is my favourite Contra, which means it's among my favourite games.

This is coming to PC, right?

Yes, Steam, GoG, etc.
thanks for trying to stick with your vision for the game even if dummies who never played alien soldier are apparently forcing you to add unnecessary platform stages.

reading this thread is straight up crazy pills, when did gamers decide they hated boss battles? the premise of this game is incredible. there are a million other platform games out there for you, yeesh.

I wouldn't call them "unnecessary". They just expanded the scope (and budget, *growl*), and Cuphead will probably be a better game for having them.
 
Mario games are mostly about careful level design, since they are pure platformers.

Cuphead looks to me more like a run & gun type of game (Contra, Metal Slug). These games don't have as special level designs, you usually just get simple areas to walk with some platforms here and there. The difficulty is mostly about the number of enemies to kill and stuff to avoid.

So i assume this is an easier thing to do, than trying to carefully create a map like Mario, where every gap, platform shape and location, enemy placement, etc, have to be thought out.

That's just an assumption of mine though as i have no better idea about game development.

Anyway, if i was in charge, since cuphead's selling point is the incredible animation, i would make it more like Metal Slug, with some beautiful backgrounds with lots of animations etc but instead of making many small enemies, i would make it about less but bigger ones. Kinda like Alien Soldier.

Yo dawg, i know i don't have any experience in this area whatsoever, but imma make some vague generalizations and wild ass assumptions and then tell you how much better, faster and more streamlined i would be doing your job. kthxbye

---

For real though, this game has been looking fantastic, and I'm glad to hear it'll be getting some platforming mixed in with the bosses.
We have way more character abilities than a Contra game (dashes, air dashes, EXs and Super attacks, parries, parry bouncing, etc)

I also had no idea that there was going to be as much emphasis on refined movement and player abilities, which just boosted my excitement for the game. Can't wait to play it when it's released!
 

TBiddy

Member
I can't wait for Cuphead to arrive. Solid candidate for GOTY, if the gameplay is a good as it looks.
 

Teeth

Member
I also had no idea that there was going to be as much emphasis on refined movement and player abilities, which just boosted my excitement for the game. Can't wait to play it when it's released!

Ha, that's mostly because none of the footage from any people playing at expos or from game journalists ever shows them using the abilities.

It's a little maddening to watch people never use EX shots or Supers on bosses and then complain that the bosses have too much health.

Ditto for never using dashes or air dashes and saying that some stuff is hard to avoid.

Or calling the game "bullet hell" when there's rarely more than 3 bullets on screen at any time, and you can parry those bullets, absorbing their power into your Super bar, allowing you to fight back harder. Or using the parry bounce to maneuver around the screen more nimbly.

Or when they never switch weapons mid fight to capitalize on the different strengths and weaknesses depending on the situation the boss is putting you in.

Or ignoring all of the above and saying the game is incredibly simplistic while simultaneously being too hard. The simplicity I can kind of understand to a degree; it's designed to be immediately pick up and play. But when you design the ability set that we have in player movement, you have to have bosses that reward using that variance to the player's advantage. As such, not using those abilities makes the game feel relatively thin and much much harder than it is.


But all of that, I think, comes from what I call "Expo Exposure". People stand in line, get a 30 second tutorial on how to play and then 10 minutes to play. They are told about all the abilities, but when a boss starts leaning into you, you forget all about what someone told you you could do and just freeze up or jump into a bullet three times and die.

I think levels will help a lot with this; reiterating advantages to player abilities, repeating challenges while consistently ratcheting up the difficulty, and creating combinations of those encounters to allow the player expression in overcoming them. It's something that's easier to do in levels than in bosses. With bosses, the progression is all things that happen TO the player, whereas in a level, the player controls the pace of encounters, which allows them to learn and experiment more easily. With early levels, we can create very specific challenges that require knowledge and use of the abilities in a less stressful environment. Hopefully that will encourage them to use that knowledge to their advantage on the bosses.
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
This will be the first time I buy a game for graphics, because this looks incredible. Thanks to the devs for adding some platforming to practice skills, now I'm much more excited about this game.
 

mclem

Member
cautiously hoping that this will be a cool arcade game

edit: disinterest in boss battles is crazy to me

Somewhere, out there, the ghost of Treasure sheds a silent tear.

(Although, thinking about it, I don't think Treasure are actually dead, are they? I don't recall hearing about them shutting down - but I've not seen them do anything in an age. Is it just ports to mobile? Steam?)
 
Somewhere, out there, the ghost of Treasure sheds a silent tear.

(Although, thinking about it, I don't think Treasure are actually dead, are they? I don't recall hearing about them shutting down - but I've not seen them do anything in an age. Is it just ports to mobile? Steam?)

They haven't shut down, no. Their last projects were the Gaist Crusher games for 3DS (Japan-only) and the Ikaruga PC port.
 

poodaddy

Member
Well, there are literally some shmup bosses, where you fly around in your little airplane, so it would be tough to say there is no influence. But shmup does not mean bullet hell: no one one the team is a bullet hell fan, so there won't be any pink mazes to wade through. They'll be more like Thunder Force bosses.

Hey, if you don't like bosses, Cuphead may not be for you. We love bosses, so we set out to make the most interesting, intense, visually striking bosses we could. If that's not your cup of soul juice, I can't fault you for not being interested.

As a Souls and Megaman X fanatic I can safely say that bosses are my favorite part of basically any game, so this post just made me even more excited to play the game. Who cares if it's mostly about bosses? Why is that a bad thing? Hell boss rushes are the funnest thing to unlock in a game to me anyway so this sounds amazing.
 
Somewhere, out there, the ghost of Treasure sheds a silent tear.

(Although, thinking about it, I don't think Treasure are actually dead, are they? I don't recall hearing about them shutting down - but I've not seen them do anything in an age. Is it just ports to mobile? Steam?)

The Treasure of old is gone forever it seems.

Which is why I welcome an indie who makes a game in the vein of Treasure classics and find it kinda depressing that some people want it to be more of a platform game instead, which isn't exactly a genre lacking in new titles.

Anyway, Teeth is doing a great job in this thread. Still my most wanted game after Dark Souls 3.

I do love my bosses. :)
 

gelf

Member
I hope the platforming doesn't feel tacked on and just like busywork before the boss battles. If it does I hope there will be a boss only mode.

Can't believe how much hate there is for boss battles in this thread.
 

Sjefen

Member
I hope the platforming doesn't feel tacked on and just like busywork before the boss battles. If it does I hope there will be a boss only mode.

Can't believe how much hate there is for boss battles in this thread.

I cant believe all the love for boss fights in this tread. Seriously boss fights have always been the icing on the cake at the end of the lvl, but only eating icing make me sick to my stomach.
 

Mega

Banned
what hyperbole

I suppose this is better than that guy who complained that Cuphead's art was being "wasted" by being used in an action game, though.

You mean the guy who said it should be an RPG? Those posts pissed me off. Dozens of RPGs every year, almost no classic sidescrollers and yet the ridiculous assertion is made to turn this brilliant and carefully planned old school action game into another plodding role playing adventure.

Not wasted by being used in an action game, wasted by being used in what is reportedly an exceptionally difficult game.

Yeah, it was you. Please stop saying or implying the creator's vision and art is wasted on this, that the game should have been something else entirely different based on your personal tastes and whims.
 

magnetic

Member
????

Cuphead started out as all bosses EXACTLY like Alien Soldier, but that's what people railed against.

I couldn't think of anything less interesting than waves of enemies with a couple platforms to jump on. Blech.

In my opinion Alien Soldier is the best Treasure game. They cut out all the boring stuff from Gunstar Heroes (which means everything except the bosses) and made it thrilling directly from the start. It's the most uncompromising Treasure game next to Ikaruga. The combat is incredible for such an old game.

Just wanted to throw that into the discussion since this game gets mentioned so little. So I'm definitely with you on the boss rush appreciation side.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
Ha, that's mostly because none of the footage from any people playing at expos or from game journalists ever shows them using the abilities.

It's a little maddening to watch people never use EX shots or Supers on bosses and then complain that the bosses have too much health.

Ditto for never using dashes or air dashes and saying that some stuff is hard to avoid.

Or calling the game "bullet hell" when there's rarely more than 3 bullets on screen at any time, and you can parry those bullets, absorbing their power into your Super bar, allowing you to fight back harder. Or using the parry bounce to maneuver around the screen more nimbly.

Or when they never switch weapons mid fight to capitalize on the different strengths and weaknesses depending on the situation the boss is putting you in.

Or ignoring all of the above and saying the game is incredibly simplistic while simultaneously being too hard. The simplicity I can kind of understand to a degree; it's designed to be immediately pick up and play. But when you design the ability set that we have in player movement, you have to have bosses that reward using that variance to the player's advantage. As such, not using those abilities makes the game feel relatively thin and much much harder than it is.


But all of that, I think, comes from what I call "Expo Exposure". People stand in line, get a 30 second tutorial on how to play and then 10 minutes to play. They are told about all the abilities, but when a boss starts leaning into you, you forget all about what someone told you you could do and just freeze up or jump into a bullet three times and die.

I think levels will help a lot with this; reiterating advantages to player abilities, repeating challenges while consistently ratcheting up the difficulty, and creating combinations of those encounters to allow the player expression in overcoming them. It's something that's easier to do in levels than in bosses. With bosses, the progression is all things that happen TO the player, whereas in a level, the player controls the pace of encounters, which allows them to learn and experiment more easily. With early levels, we can create very specific challenges that require knowledge and use of the abilities in a less stressful environment. Hopefully that will encourage them to use that knowledge to their advantage on the bosses.


Hey, thanks for being so patient and informative here. I was a little apprehensive of the game at first based on initial reports but it looks really quite distinct and built with a love for a genre that's rare these days.
 
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